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 Psienesis wrote:
The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

Which is where I get hung up in the detail. The Emperor is reincarnated from loads of psykers, but his genome is still based off the human one to a large degree. Now it's been suggested that he changes his genetic code at will, but I find that odd. Now unless this is contradicted in the fluff, I find it much more likely that during the Primarch Project the Emperor and his scientists made entirely novel organs from either entirely novel genes or changed genes to a massive degree, giving the Primarchs at the very minimum a switched-off variant. Then during the creation of the Grey Knights, he added in the same novel organs to their genome, whilst basing parts of it off himself (whilst adding or keeping the parts of his genome which grants them the Chaos vaccine).

I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

Not at all. I completely disagree they were Daemons/creatures of the Warp. Was there Warp knowledge involved in their creation? Sure. And showing affinity for the Warp doesn't make you a creature of it.

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

Ah, you want an evolutionary pathway in the DNA to make these organs naturally possible? I don't have the expertise to say whether or not that's outright impossible, but I will say it's beyond our science to be able to explain in a practical way. I imagined the organs were vatgrown lego builds of cells that do not at all match up to human dna that are governed, incorporated, and regulated by the fantasy of the geneseed, an essentially deus ex organ made of stem cells and nervous systems. The inherent magic of warpcraft in the Primarchs means we can build their organ stories out of handwavium.

my guess is the emperor used his own DNA as a basis and then built upon it. I'm given the impression that the gene seed of space Marines, requires, among other things, a degree of the "essence" of a powerful "Primarch figure" rather then using the Primarchs the emperor instead granted the GK Gene seed a degree of his own "essence"

for lack of a better term.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I'll admit, you've lost me. Of COURSE the Emperor invented organs and changed genetics in creating the Legions. Can you please explain your concerns in a more concise fashion?

Because I can't see how the novel organs the Space Marines receive from the novel genes can arise from the Emperor, seen as his genome, to an extent, is human, without most of the genetic foundation required for gene-seed, e.g. you can't take a human genome and make gene-seed from him. When you then say the gene-seed is taken from the Emperor... well, what did they take? I just don't get it. With the Primarchs there's no problem due to the Emperor hase modified the Primarch's DNA to include genes, possible the genes for the different gene-seed implants, thus meaning the Adeptus Astartes are derived from the Primarchs.

Now I get the Emperor is different on a genetic level, but where did they get the DNA for non-human organs?

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Emperor directly stole knowledge from Chaos to create the Primarchs, and all of the Primarchs are highly psychic entities.

Cheers, but isn't that about their spiritual engineering or something? Not about Betcher's gland et al?

That's the point. The Primarchs are wrought from the warp.

 Wyzilla wrote:


That's the point. The Primarchs are wrought from the warp.

Not entirely though, handwaving "magic" might work for some of it, but then all the scientists and the genetics research would be utterly useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:

Ah, you want an evolutionary pathway in the DNA to make these organs naturally possible? I don't have the expertise to say whether or not that's outright impossible, but I will say it's beyond our science to be able to explain in a practical way. I imagined the organs were vatgrown lego builds of cells that do not at all match up to human dna that are governed, incorporated, and regulated by the fantasy of the geneseed, an essentially deus ex organ made of stem cells and nervous systems. The inherent magic of warpcraft in the Primarchs means we can build their organ stories out of handwavium.

Precisely, and we're agreeing here! Creating them in the distant future may be possible (bar maybe the omophagea) in the real world!

When they then take the Primarch's gene-seed (genetics), it would only apply to the Adeptus' implants, because, afaik, that's all they get. Sure, they can vat-grow organs separately, but unless they're derived from the Primarchs' genome they're not related. So unless the Emperor has the genes required for the gene-seed, it makes no sense to derive gene-seed from the Emperor. To me, it seems like someone done goofed on the Grey Knights from a genetic fluff perspective

The Primarchs' genetic code is likewise derived from the Emperor. They are, in effect, clones of him... simply structured so that each of the Primarchs embodies certain traits over others, mixed with a bit of Warp-stuff to make it work.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

I think you can view it like this.
Primarch genes seed = Space Marines
Emperor genes seed = Grey Knights

I wouldn't consider Emperor or Grey Knights are better than Space Marines... So Emperor wanted different marines for different tasks.

The New Man was born in 8,000 BC and 38,000 years later he became the Emperor. He had 38,000 years to change many forms and his DNA and genes can be modify to his choosing. I'm not sure why you are asking why it was impossible for him to change his DNA. We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

But there's no evidence that he physically changed his DNA. Again, you need to stop arguing your opinions so strongly as if they're fact. Me thinking differently to you isn't 'an issue'. Shape Shifting clearly is one of his powers, but that doesn't mean he physically changes his DNA. More than likely he psychically masks his appearance. His powers are psychic powers, DNA manipulation would be a physical power.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

This is fiction, it is possible and why not? If the New Man was born as Turkish (I don't know his race... so lets just go with it) in 8,000BC and in 3,000BC he took the guises as an Egypt Pharaoh... his height, weight, pigment, etc... has changed so much his DNA has changed. I think the issue here is that you think that his masking is an illusion. I think it was morphing or total physically changed. Not an Illusion. Also, his last guise as the giant man with halo name Emperor is also a physically changed.. none of his identities were illusion.

Remember the New Man was a powerful psychic with 1,000s of shaman identities and souls fused into one soul... they had the power of reincarnation... shape shifting or DNA manipulation should be one of his basic powers.

But there's no evidence that he physically changed his DNA. Again, you need to stop arguing your opinions so strongly as if they're fact. Me thinking differently to you isn't 'an issue'. Shape Shifting clearly is one of his powers, but that doesn't mean he physically changes his DNA. More than likely he psychically masks his appearance. His powers are psychic powers, DNA manipulation would be a physical power.

Listen.. I've notice that every time I post my PO and somebody expressed their PO and somehow I must concede. Why?

Why is your PO correct and why are you so strongly convicted on this issue? I never said you were wrong did I? Why must you be right when we both are expressing theory... are we not? Unless you have facts, it is just your PO.

So what or how should I reply?

1 - You are right. I was mistaken, The New Man psychic power can not change his DNA because you said so.

OR

2 - I think I am still right because if your were a Black Man... and now you a White Woman ... you can't have the same DNA. The whole power of his psychic ability is to change his DNA and the result of this ability is the different human being identities. You are going backward by changing his guise and the DNA stays the same. You should look at it from biology POV. His power changed his DNA and the result is different looking people.

He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

 ImAGeek wrote:
He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Mask is a Mask.. not going to disagree with you. He had that power too.

He also has the ability to change as a whole too. It is fiction so maybe ...his true form is 6ft Turkish man...He changed to MLK during 1950s True change down to DNA.... and as MLK... he walked in to white areas and choose to just Mask as a white person to avoid confrontation. Then take off the Mask and back to MLK. Maybe DNA change takes times like days or hours and Mask is right a way... who knows.

Again, I think there are many times in 40K games and stories where psychic, Chaos gifts, game psychic power that change the actual biology of the being. We must assume that the DNA was effected when we see Chaos SM with freaking lizard tail! That is not and illusion or a Mask. It was a blessing from Chaos. You don't think The New Man who i possessed the most powerful psychic power in the galaxy can't change a simple DNA? He must Mask it?

LOL, go look up the past 3 posts my friend. You came to rebuttal me. To disagree with me, is telling me I am wrong. I defend my position. Yet, I still never say you are wrong. You are making stuff up about me. This is a warning, if you keep this up I will report you. BTW - I don't even mind if you disagree... this is a discussion. However, I have not tell anybody they are wrong. You are.

Disagreeing with someone's argument, including asserting that their conclusion is wrong, is not against the rules.

 Grimskul wrote:
@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

LOL, you guys are the same people who follows me and tries to start something.

I haven't derail anything. It is you who is derailing.

We are talking about the New Man ability to change his DNA which is part of this discussion.


Please, stop this or I will report you. This is the only way for you guys to stop derail this and stay on topic.

If you think I am wrong, I have post my position and you can disprove it with facts. What you are doing is character attacking and has no facts at all. Show me proof of what I've stated on this post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Disagreeing with someone's argument, including asserting that their conclusion is wrong, is not against the rules.

MOD, did I say to him that he was wrong as he was claiming? Was my PO telling everybody to back off? I am expressing my thought just like other people. What is the different here?

Please show me where I stated that he was wrong as he was claiming.

What is clamming?

 Manchu wrote:
What is clamming?

LOL, i hate auto correction.

I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

Yes. That's exactly what I was trying to get at, but as usual better written.

 Manchu wrote:
Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

ahhh but this would be your PO. I mean in the end... we are talking about "Magic".

But lets study this concept a bit from science POV.

What if his power in scientific term is DNA manipulation. The result will be all the humanoid forms he can shape into. Almost like Mystique from X-men.

To me it explain everything. The Magic did it has more validity when the Magic changed the DNA and the result is the different identities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Oh so you are character attacking me... you have oracle power to predict the future and wanted to act like judge and jury and get MOD to attack me before I did anything?

You can't see the irony in this? You are the one who is derailing and borderline breaking rule #1

It is a fact, and not merely my "PO," that psychic power -- as a literary device -- is magic, i.e., it defies rational explanation.

The idea that psychic power can change DNA is not a bad theory. For example, it is said the Emperor used sorcery (which I have always interpreted to mean a kind of psychic power) to engineer the Primarchs. But I am not aware of any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA.

 david choe wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Did you mean claiming?

The thing is, we don't know much about the Emperor. There is no reason to assume that he has the ability to change his own DNA. If he looks differently from time to time, surely we can ascribe that to his psychic powers. And seeing how those powers are essentially magical (i.e., as a literary device, they intentionally defy rational explanation) we cannot even assume they operate according to material logic, e.g., DNA modification.

ahhh but this would be your PO. I mean in the end... we are talking about "Magic".

But lets study this concept a bit from science POV.

What if his power in scientific term is DNA manipulation. The result will be all the humanoid forms he can shape into. Almost like Mystique from X-men.

To me it explain everything. The Magic did it has more validity when the Magic changed the DNA and the result is the different identities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't mean here in particular. I meant your posts in general.

Oh so you are character attacking me... you have oracle power to predict the future and wanted to act like judge and jury and get MOD to attack me before I did anything?

You can't see the irony in this? You are the one who is derailing and borderline breaking rule #1

Seriously, this is the last im gonna say because I'm probably pissing the mods off as much as you are now, no where did I 'get a mod to attack you'. They're free thinking individuals, not my Attack dogs. Seeing as you've got about three threads locked at this point, I don't actually think I'm the issue here. But that's it, I'm done arguing with you about this.

Manchu, apologies for going off topic, and I know I haven't exactly helped the situation. Sorry.

No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

 Manchu wrote:
It is a fact, and not merely my "PO," that psychic power -- as a literary device -- is magic, i.e., it defies rational explanation.

The idea that psychic power can change DNA is not a bad theory. For example, it is said the Emperor used sorcery (which I have always interpreted to mean a kind of psychic power) to engineer the Primarchs. But I am not aware of any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA.

I know it is Magic and I am not disagreeing with you.

I don't think there is any evidence that the Emperor ever changed his own DNA. But at the same time, there has never been any evidence to contradict.

So we just have to assume if he can or can not based on our own PO.

However, I would like you to consider that the Emperor was the most powerful psychic in the galaxy.
1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.
2. The New Man, according to old fluff ... he was like Jesus and he healed to sick and even did some miracle healing... this is heavy biology stuff. I just see him being able to fix DNA so he can heal or grow limp or whatever.

Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.