Gene-seed question (Grey Knight related)

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**ChazSexington**

lcmiracle wrote:
Huh, that's interesting. I must say though, that is incredibly kind of the Gods of Chaos to send a Primarch with Wolf genes to a planet full of wolf-men. But I digress.

In fear of hi-jacking another thread, I don't suppose it is only legends that the GK has Emperor's own genetic materials in their gene-seeds? If it is just legends then it's possible for the gene-seeds to come from loyalist and traitor legions' gene-seeds held on Terra at that time.

I must admit right now is too early to say how the Grey Knights gene-seeds were created. We will just have to wait when and if the BL writers ever decide to resolve this plot point.

The whole sending of the different Primarchs to the specific planets is mostly Deus Ex Machina, but can be also be the Emperor fighting back, resulting in the Primarchs ending up on planets more or less suited to them. However, it could also have been the Chaos Gods plans all along.

It's all but confirmed, but obviously it could be untrue! However, when the original Grey Knights (Iacton Qruze etc) arrived on Titan, the recruits were already there and the gene-seed was already made.

**Shidank**

I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

**Grey Templar**

ChazSexington wrote:
I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

**ChazSexington**

Shidank wrote:
I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

Aye, but it's still not impossible. Several of the original ones were from Traitor Legions, and there's even a theory Omegon is Janus, one of the founding Grey Knights. Recent thread.w

Grey Templar wrote:

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

Aye, but the Grey Knights would be far more removed from the Emperor than Adeptus Astartes from their Primarchs.

**Psienesis**

Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

**ChazSexington**

Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

**Grey Templar**

ChazSexington wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

**dusara217**

ChazSexington wrote:
Shidank wrote:
The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.

Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

I'm not saying everything is purely genetic; in a world of magic there's obviously gonna be crossovers. I'm just struggling to see how the Emperor would bother with Betcher's Gland etc. The Emperor, while born of natural methods, is thousands of reincarnated psykers, which is how he's so incredibly powerful.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find that particular theory difficult to believe

The Emperor essentially had the power of a lesser God of Chaos, only he was tethered the physical realm. You think that he'd risk getting killed and being devoured by the major Chaos Gods? No! Any idiot would change his body to be stronger, faster, tougher, etc. in order to be able to survive things that would otherwise kill them. What, you think the Emperor just got smacked in the face by the Void Dragon and survived because of magic? No! He made himself superhuman, just like anybody else would, had they had the power to do so and were living forever.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

The Emperor made the Primarchs from his own genetic material. Marines are made from the Primarchs.

Thus its hardly unreasonable that he could have skipped the middle step. Cloning is also not involved, its more like taking his own "perfect" DNA and then genetically manipulating it with artificial genes to create something new.

With enough knowledge of genetics you could create totally artificial genes to create entirely new organs with new functions. And since he already knew how to make space marines duplicating the process would have been easy. And he could use anything learned from the failures of Space Marines, and his own special super psyker genes, to make the GKs better.

Yes, but that begs the question of "why don't the Grey Knights have more power than ordinary Space Marines?" If Grey Knights came directly from the Emperor and the Primarchs came directly from the Emperor, wouldn't the Grey Knights be just a little bit faster, stronger, bigger, etc. than your standard Space Marines?

**Grey Templar**

Not necessarily. Their focus was on psychic abilities while retaining the physical perfection of a Space Marine. At that they're undeniably successful.

**DarkLink**

The Daemonhunter codex also did in fact say that GKs are better than normal Marines in general.

**Grey Templar**

Well we can definitely say they're stronger. They all get the Hammerhand psychic power.

**dusara217**

DarkLink wrote:
The Daemonhunter codex also did in fact say that GKs are better than normal Marines in general.

Yes, well, "better" is a matter of opinion. For instance, I could say that the GK reliance upon close combat makes them worse than other Chapters who are well-balanced. I could say that their focus on Daemons makes them worse than, say, the UM who have are skilled in combating Xenos and Daemon alike. It's all a matter of perspective, IMO.

**Grey Templar**

I wouldn't say they're reliant on close combat. Their basic standard issue equipment is better than what a regular marine gets.

Regular Marine: Bolter, Pistol, Combat Knife, Grenades.

Grey Knight: Stormbolter, Nemesis Force Weapon, Grenades.

Grey Knights are also explicitly trained in other foes, because anyone could have a daemonic artifact or cause a daemonic incursion. Thus the GKs have to be prepared to face anyone and anything, in addition to Daemons.

**DarkLink**

dusara217, you're misunderstanding. The Daemonhunters codex (and really, both newer GK codices) literally explicitly stated that GKs were physically superior, better trained in both marksmanship and hand to hand combat, and basically straight up better than normal Space Marines. Not "well, they're better against daemons", not at all. In fact, contrary to a lot of popular belief the GK fluff goes to great length to explain why they fight stuff other than daemons and are still extremely effective against everything. I could dig up some quotes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"The most advanced psycho surgery and bioengineering isused to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines'."

There's a lengthy quote I'm too lazy to type up about how Grey Knight Terminators are each individually psykers surpassing the power of most Librarians. There are some similar quotes about other aspects, such as their equipment and ships being similarly superior. And that's just the Daemonhunters codex.

**dusara217**

DarkLink wrote:
dusara217, you're misunderstanding. The Daemonhunters codex (and really, both newer GK codices) literally explicitly stated that GKs were physically superior, better trained in both marksmanship and hand to hand combat, and basically straight up better than normal Space Marines. Not "well, they're better against daemons", not at all. In fact, contrary to a lot of popular belief the GK fluff goes to great length to explain why they fight stuff other than daemons and are still extremely effective against everything. I could dig up some quotes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"The most advanced psycho surgery and bioengineering isused to condition the aspirants into the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines'."

There's a lengthy quote I'm too lazy to type up about how Grey Knight Terminators are each individually psykers surpassing the power of most Librarians. There are some similar quotes about other aspects, such as their equipment and ships being similarly superior. And that's just the Daemonhunters codex.

I see. Well, I'm in the bandwagon of them be Empeorr's Geneseed, then

**BrianDavion**

Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say they're reliant on close combat. Their basic standard issue equipment is better than what a regular marine gets.

Regular Marine: Bolter, Pistol, Combat Knife, Grenades.

Grey Knight: Stormbolter, Nemesis Force Weapon, Grenades.

Grey Knights are also explicitly trained in other foes, because anyone could have a daemonic artifact or cause a daemonic incursion. Thus the GKs have to be prepared to face anyone and anything, in addition to Daemons.

and only GKs bother to issue grenades to their terminators

**DarkLink**

The selection process is a big difference as well. GKs are far more selective than any other SM chapter for those who even get to try to be one. The selection process itself is far more brutal due to the additional constraints of the psyker training and the exposure to chaos and the warp. Some SM chapters will even take their most promising psychic recruits and send them over to the GKs. So you get a better pool of candidates, more rigorous training, etc, you're going to end up with a stronger Marine. The possibility of the Emperor's geneseed is just part of it.

So when someone says the Gk fluff is "Space Marines but better", they're not being sarcastic

. And that wasn't Mat Ward's doing, either.

**Shidank**

Grey Templar wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

And my fortune cookies say Made in America.

**Grimskul**

Shidank wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Current Codex lore states that the geneseed of the Grey Knights is directly taken from the Emperor, Himself, which is why they are immune to Warp Corruption.

Does it state it outright?

Yes it does.

And my fortune cookies say Made in America.

Funny, because most Fortune Cookies are made in America and contrary to popular belief, did not originate from China.

**Shidank**

Grimskul wrote:

Funny, because most Fortune Cookies are made in America and contrary to popular belief, did not originate from China.

And the award for missing the joke goes to...!

Lol I'm teasing. It would only make sense to make a statement like "Derived from the Emperor" for an institution like the Grey Knights. To think you would find another claim in fluff is ridiculous.

Surely you see the irony in staking a belief on a claim made in a fictional history of a society that regularly employs lies, dogmatism, and blatant propaganda to achieve its ends?

It's almost too obvious that they Grey Knights are not of the Emperor's geneseed, yet I find that theory as viable as any given the information we have.

**ChazSexington**

My problem is the genetic aspect of this.

Either the Emperor's genome included gene-seed organs (or something quite close), or the Grey Knights are VERY distantly related to the Emperor.

**Shidank**

ChazSexington wrote:
My problem is the genetic aspect of this.

Either the Emperor's genome included gene-seed organs (or something quite close), or the Grey Knights are VERY distantly related to the Emperor.

My problem with this view is that it's like looking at a suburban development and saying the houses were always there.

The Emperor's genome may have made these things possible, but it does not mean he had these brilliantly contrived biological implants.

**Psienesis**

The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

**Pilau Rice**

Psienesis wrote:
The development of those organs requires the gene-seed, all of which originates from the Emperor in the first place, but the Emperor, himself, did not need or require the organs.

For most Space Marines, the genetic line goes something like this:

Emperor > Primarch > 10,000 years of re-cloning geneseed > Space Marine

For the Grey Knights, it goes like this:

Emperor > Fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed > Grey Knight.

They are going to extract the Progenoids and replace them the same way as the normal Astartes though, so they aren't fully stocked anymore I can imagine. So as a second founding Chapter they have new stock and it's as close to the original source, if it is the Emperor, as possible. Not degraded by the techniques used by the original Legions to increase mass production.

**Psienesis**

There's only 1000 GK at any one time, at most. They don't die all that often, and they live for centuries. If you have a gene-seed bank that has enough gene-seed for a billion Marines, it will last a good long time.

**Pilau Rice**

Psienesis wrote:
There's only 1000 GK at any one time, at most. They don't die all that often, and they live for centuries. If you have a gene-seed bank that has enough gene-seed for a billion Marines, it will last a good long time.

True, but we don't know how many sets they made. They might have only made 1000.

**Psienesis**

The quote we're given is something like "fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed, the Emperor's genetic legacy" in the current GK Codex. I don't have it right here in front of me, unfortunately.

But, even if they only had 1000 sets, they still have one up on the other Space Marines. Their geneseed was cultivated directly from the Emperor, rather than cultivated from the Emperor, chopped up, put in a blender, then separated into different things for the twenty Primarchs, and then put into another blender, mixed with some scraps and filler he had laying around the lab, and then, finally, put into production for the Legions, since the Primarchs got thrown into the Warp.

It is this direct genetic imprint that is implied to be "perfect", which is why GK geneseed does not suffer mutation or degradation of any kind.

**Pilau Rice**

Psienesis wrote:
The quote we're given is something like "fully-stocked banks of pristine geneseed, the Emperor's genetic legacy" in the current GK Codex. I don't have it right here in front of me, unfortunately.

But, even if they only had 1000 sets, they still have one up on the other Space Marines. Their geneseed was cultivated directly from the Emperor, rather than cultivated from the Emperor, chopped up, put in a blender, then separated into different things for the twenty Primarchs, and then put into another blender, mixed with some scraps and filler he had laying around the lab, and then, finally, put into production for the Legions, since the Primarchs got thrown into the Warp.

It is this direct genetic imprint that is implied to be "perfect", which is why GK geneseed does not suffer mutation or degradation of any kind.

Which is what I said, that it doesn't suffer from the same degradation as the original Legions. But say they don't have an amazing large gene-bank that hasn't been depleted, then they would still need to use the same methods as the other Chapters to replenish ranks.

**Psienesis**

Not if they can cultivate a brand-new set of progenoids from the usual slave-stock that other Chapters do, or do so entirely in a sterile lab. That way, you go straight from the original imprint to the organs to be implanted. You don't intermingle it with successive "generations" of Space Marines, from progenoid to progenoid. While most Chapters hold that this leads to better Space Marines, inheriting some of the experience and skill of whoever's progenoid they're getting, this is also a cause of genetic degradation.

**Pilau Rice**

Psienesis wrote:
Not if they can cultivate a brand-new set of progenoids from the usual slave-stock that other Chapters do, or do so entirely in a sterile lab. That way, you go straight from the original imprint to the organs to be implanted. You don't intermingle it with successive "generations" of Space Marines, from progenoid to progenoid. While most Chapters hold that this leads to better Space Marines, inheriting some of the experience and skill of whoever's progenoid they're getting, this is also a cause of genetic degradation.

Exactly.

It all depends on how they replace it, which to my knowledge we don't know.