Gene-seed question (Grey Knight related)

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**Shidank**

Psienesis wrote:
Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

**Psienesis**

Oh, I speculate all the time. My personal head-canon is a radical departure from the material presented about the setting, at least in regards to certain aspects of it. To such a point that it would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of 40K fans.

However, I don't use my personal head-canon as a point of debate on the forums, because that's fruitless. That's simply arguing opinions, which goes nowhere.

Though it's true that there's no such thing as "canon" in 40K, most fans follow the information provided in a Codex as the "most accurate" or "closest thing to canon" as exists in the setting. So when a question like "Where did the GK geneseed come from?" comes up, what's stated in a Codex is generally believed to be the closest thing to "the absolute truth" as you're going to find, especially when there's very little room in what the Codex says for interpretation.

**Shidank**

Psienesis wrote:
Oh, I speculate all the time. My personal head-canon is a radical departure from the material presented about the setting, at least in regards to certain aspects of it. To such a point that it would be unrecognizable to the vast majority of 40K fans.

However, I don't use my personal head-canon as a point of debate on the forums, because that's fruitless. That's simply arguing opinions, which goes nowhere.

Though it's true that there's no such thing as "canon" in 40K, most fans follow the information provided in a Codex as the "most accurate" or "closest thing to canon" as exists in the setting. So when a question like "Where did the GK geneseed come from?" comes up, what's stated in a Codex is generally believed to be the closest thing to "the absolute truth" as you're going to find, especially when there's very little room in what the Codex says for interpretation.

I'll always want more out of content meant to drive such a large universe and feel honestly that it was meant to be taken in such a way. Oh well, some will follow the letter, some the spirit, and some won't play at all.

**ImAGeek**

Shidank wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

What am I, out of curiosity?

**Shidank**

A gentleman and a scholar? Lol

You seem much more receptive of speculation with a respectable knowledge of the canon.

**ImAGeek**

Haha, just nice to know (sometimes...) what people think of you. That sounds about right, I'm open to speculation, my knowledge dries up post heresy though, and im always learning stuff here, especially from the older fluff.

**Shidank**

It's the newer fluff that cripples me.

Well, that and my aversion to pirating e-books.

**ChazSexington**

Shidank wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

**Pilau Rice**

Pilau Rice wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:

Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is
ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?
But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Ok so I went back to Deliverance Lost

p165
There were areas left blank though, intentionally he assumed. Details of the parts of the Emperors own Genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the Primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much.

'You have given me the secrets of the Primarch Project?' said Corax, his voice a whisper of amazement. 'The parts that were relevant to the creation of the Legions, yes,' said the Emperor.

So I was wrong in part, but the Emperor did hold back some information.

There is more involving the Emperors genetic material, the unsullied genes used to create the Primarchs themselves. I was going to get these quotes but I had to go to work.

So there is untainted Geneseed left lying around on Terra. Material that was used to create the Primarchs.

As a source on Gene seed Deliverance Lost delivers

**Shidank**

ChazSexington wrote:
Shidank wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.

Arguing head-canon is a fruitless endeavor.

The Emperor had plenty of time during the Heresy (and before it) to undertake this project. He wasn't in the Web-way fighting Daemons (that's what his Custodes were doing), he had retired to his laboratories on Terra after naming Horus the Warmaster. What was he doing in those labs? We don't know... probably this, building Geneseed v4.

Unlike the first few times, the Emperor already knew what he was doing. He'd built the Thunder Warriors, he'd built the Primarchs, and he'd built the Legions Astartes. He already possessed a clear road-map of the process, already had bajillions of test cases for study, and plenty of field testing to see where improvements could be made. He logically deduced that the genetic link between Primarch and Marine was the weak link (as provided to us in the Codex quote), and so removed that link, tying what would become the Grey Knights directly to himself and his perfect genetic code.

Was this his original plan for this material? We don't know. We'll probably never know. In the end, however, it doesn't matter. The closest thing to a "Primarch" you can claim for the GK is the Emperor, Himself.

He said specifically he was working on the webway, but your point is still valid. Given the time he had before all hell broke loose, he likely had created this batch beforehand. We had boiled down to fruitless speculation that is nonetheless rewarding.

I'm starting to differentiate between the creative users, the overly creative users, and hardline users, and the super hardline users. Makes for better communication.

For instance, I would never expect speculation out of you and I would never expect anything but speculation from david choe. lol

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

**ChazSexington**

Shidank wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

**Shidank**

ChazSexington wrote:
Shidank wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

Your objections have been noted, as has your knack for ignoring my own questions by blathering on with simple repetitive rhetoric. Your anger comes from being unwilling to actually consider my own questions on the matter, and that's fine. You don't have to respect me. You should however, maintain at least a modicum of self-respect on your own post.

Your lack of willingness to engage here and need to continue on despite the several times the argument has been dropped has shown a clear disregard for members commenting on your thread and the conduct becoming a user.

I ask again that you simply do not respond or that a MOD close the thread. Nothing but block quotes and repeated posts are coming from you now.

I'm sorry a more fruitful discussion could not be reached.

**ImAGeek**

Why can't we all just be friends :(

**Shidank**

ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

Chaz has a need to be right that supersedes our want of delightful discussion.

There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

**EngulfedObject**

ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

I'll be your friend, brother! Even though you ranked the Dark Angels last!

Shidank wrote:
There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

Yea, it'd probably be best if we moved on from this topic. Though I have to admit I have no idea what it's about anymore

**ImAGeek**

EngulfedObject wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(
I'll be your friend, brother! Even though you ranked the Dark Angels last!

Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

**EngulfedObject**

ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

Honestly, I really don't mind that much. People have different tastes anyway.

Plus you're pretty neutral about them in discussions so I can respect that!

And wow I'm not typing straight anymore, probably done posting for today lol

**Shidank**

EngulfedObject wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Hopefully that's forgivable after my reasoning...? I can always put them at 17th instead?

Honestly, I really don't mind that much. People have different tastes anyway.

Plus you're pretty neutral about them in discussions so I can I respect that!

You two are fine men. Truly, scholars and gentlemen both.

Let us depart for the shore to sup on colorful roasted birds that we may remark upon their textures like an Emperor's Children Marine of old.

**Grimskul**

The bromance is real in this thread. Wowza.

**EngulfedObject**

I can't, I've got my helmet on! But are your jet packs fueled and ready? The feast awaits! Let us depart, brothers! To the shores of plenty!

**ChazSexington**

Shidank wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Shidank wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:

Speculation =/= Rejection of codex statements.

Rather than try to start up a flame, I recommend matching the tone of the most recent posts. If you have nothing to contribute, simply don't post. If you want to appear stubborn, you've succeeded. That'll show me. :p

Moving on in a more constructive light, Pilau's find in DL was pretty great as far as where the stock came from. This would lend a mighty air to the original purpose simply having been overproduction in the early stages of creating the Legions.

I'm not though. There's no ambiguity to the origins, nor the original purpose, of the Grey Knights. Ad hominem attacks on Psiensis, or me for that matter, for regarding what the codices say is odd. We have to, for the sake of any wh40k-related argument, presume the codices are correct. Our gripe here is the premise of your argument is disregarding established codex (and other fluff) info for head-canon, which is useless as far as debating the fictional universe of wh40k.

Can things be retconned? Sure, but then the argument's premises change. If a new GK book or codex (I think codices trump BL) states that the GK's gene-seed originator is unknown, then we can have a debate as to who we think is their gene-father.

No matter how much you call a Cultist a Howling Banshee, it's still a Cultist, so until the CSM codex changes the Cultist entry to read Howling Banshee, it's a Cultist.

Your objections have been noted, as has your knack for ignoring my own questions by blathering on with simple repetitive rhetoric. Your anger comes from being unwilling to actually consider my own questions on the matter, and that's fine. You don't have to respect me. You should however, maintain at least a modicum of self-respect on your own post.

Your lack of willingness to engage here and need to continue on despite the several times the argument has been dropped has shown a clear disregard for members commenting on your thread and the conduct becoming a user.

I ask again that you simply do not respond or that a MOD close the thread. Nothing but block quotes and repeated posts are coming from you now.

I'm sorry a more fruitful discussion could not be reached.

Shidank wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Why can't we all just be friends :(

Chaz has a need to be right that supersedes our want of delightful discussion.

There are other threads. Let us away! INTO THE NIGHT!

Hahaha, what the Hell?

As you dodge the question, I'll flat out ask you two yes/no questions.

Do you accept the codex-stated information that
- the Grey Knights' gene-seed is derived directly from the Emperor, as stated in the codex?
and
- the Grey Knights' original purpose, as stated in the codex, was to be a back-up plan to fight Chaos if the Emperor was incapacitated during the Heresy?

Now judging from your earlier replies, you do not believe so. Pick n' mixing fluff isn't the basis for the fictional universe discussion.

Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.

New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

Shidank wrote:
I was always more of the opinion that the Grey Knights were made from traitor legion geneseed, but that theory is getting thinner and thinner by the day.

**Shidank**

I invite whatever MOD is willing to close this thread.

The original questions look to have been answered to a reasonable degree and speculation is being blocked. Debate and discussion are being shut down instead of encouraged. Rather than allow this to continue as a contest of who can quote the most from a codex, I would say it's a fair point to say the discussion is dead.

**Grimskul**

You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.

**EngulfedObject**

Grimskul wrote:
You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.

Yea, it is his thread. I guess if the discussion hasn't been satisfactorily resolved for the OP and there's still room for discussion, then there's no legitimate reason to close it.

The original purpose for the Grey Knights sounds to me like they were made to guard the Webway from Daemon incursions. Has this already been brought up in the thread? Sounds reasonable, no? They didn't need a Primarch to lead them, plus they were made after the Primarchs had alreay been created.

They needed to be pure and without the influence of a Primarch, with devotion only to the Emperor. Sort of like the Custodes, except over tne entire Webway.

**Grimskul**

EngulfedObject wrote:
Grimskul wrote:
You don't have to post here anymore if you don't want to debate with Chaz. It seems a little odd that you want to lock it down so badly when it's Chaz's thread not yours.
Yea, it is his thread. I guess if the discussion hasn't been satisfactorily resolved for the OP and there's still room for discussion, then there's no legitimate reason to close it.

The original purpose for the Grey Knights sounds to me like they were made to guard the Webway from Daemon incursions. Has this already been brought up in the thread? Sounds reasonable, no? They didn't need a Primarch to lead them, plus they were made after the Primarchs had alreay been created.

They needed to be pure and without the influence of a Primarch, with devotion only to the Emperor. Sort of like the Custodes, except over tne entire Webway.

That's a definite possibility, given the fact that the Emperor became increasingly withdrawn from the rest of the Primarchs and other Imperial forces, his outright silence on the project implies he didn't really trust (or care to inform) anyone with the full scale of his plans and needed a direct response force under him to cover the expansion of the Imperial Webway sans fuss by having a completely separate and new organization. The Grey Knights were probably even a potential precursor to what the SM could have evolved into after the Great Crusade given the Emperor's supposed role and motivation in facilitating mankind's psychic potential.