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I've only recently restarted my GW hobby, so no intention of quitting it. I quit last time (a decade ago) not because of rules, but just time.

I've encountered lots of armies that I just couldn't beat. Necrons, some Tau, etc.

I don't see this as any different - Eldar has some strong buffs, and hopefully when the Codex is fully out, some nerfs.

So i'll roll with it. I play Space Marines, i'll play against Eldar. I'll likely lose. But i'll give it a good go. And next time I meet them i'll bring something else to try and counter. That's half the fun.

Point is, i'm sure the next Codex after Eldar will be the most OP ever. And the one after that. And the one after that.

If you enjoy the game and don't want to face Eldar, politely decline games and get on with enjoying yourself.

Rage quitting over transitory and every changing rules hurts no one but yourself.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I agree that getting a game with these other games can be hard in a strange city or FLGS, but it's a chicken and the egg situation.

You say that GW is the market leader, which is correct, but the only way to get more people playing these other games is getting people buying them and spreading the word.

Chicken and the egg

X-wing is a good alternative. Cheap start up costs, massive, established universe, and of course, everybody knows Star wars more than they do GW.

As someone who's having a rocky start getting an Infinity community off the ground I can commiserate.

(Though I'm also grumpy about XWing. I was promised something that played like AI, I ended up with something where manoeuver is almost completely irrelevant and I lose every game because everyone else's net lists are stronger than mine; I was under the impression that something recommended as an alternative to 40k was supposed to not have the exact same problems)

X-wing is not perfect, but in my view, it has far better balance than 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amayasu wrote:
I've only recently restarted my GW hobby, so no intention of quitting it. I quit last time (a decade ago) not because of rules, but just time.

I've encountered lots of armies that I just couldn't beat. Necrons, some Tau, etc.

I don't see this as any different - Eldar has some strong buffs, and hopefully when the Codex is fully out, some nerfs.

So i'll roll with it. I play Space Marines, i'll play against Eldar. I'll likely lose. But i'll give it a good go. And next time I meet them i'll bring something else to try and counter. That's half the fun.

Point is, i'm sure the next Codex after Eldar will be the most OP ever. And the one after that. And the one after that.

If you enjoy the game and don't want to face Eldar, politely decline games and get on with enjoying yourself.

Rage quitting over transitory and every changing rules hurts no one but yourself.

I agree, but on the other hand, broken army books/codexes, is not a new thing with GW.

By their own admission, they don't care about game balance. It's money money money.

So my reply was fine, I'll take my money elsewhere to a company that does care about game balance.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Personally I quit years ago now myself around the time of the 5th ed tyranid codex. I kept all my models though, and have quietly watched and waited for something to pique my interest. The game just got boring for me, it happens to everyone.

I decided to sit out 7th edition after attrition at my FLGS. Bought armies off some friends to keep them off eBay, and now have 20,000+ points of CSM sitting in boxes (along with large collections of Orks, AM, SMs and other random models.) Played a couple games just to try out IA:13 rules, but that's it.

I guess you call this Indifference Quit? Khorne Daemonkin piqued my interest, but it's no substitute for a game more people can enjoy.

I can top most people, I last played in 2001 after the Tau *originally* came out, but sadly just before the 3.5 CSM codex :(

I still occasionally have the idea to start playing again (there's still a solid 40k community here) so I frequent some 40k forums like this to see how things are going and keep up to date. It's telling though I've thought 5 times in the past year of playing again and every time dismissed it because of some combination of the relatively high price just to get a starting army or rules/balance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Unsurprisingly, the same kneejerking does indeed happen in other games just the same. Just not as often in the case of WM as the updates and changes are quite rare. I followed the shifting stones facade and it was laughably pathetic at best. It was almost on the scale of the Eldar codex doomsaying but instead of a clearly overpowered army ruleset as a whole, it was a nerf for a single unit and as you say, a situation most have never even seen take place.

It's the people, and that's that.

 Runic wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Unsurprisingly, the same kneejerking does indeed happen in other games just the same. Just not as often in the case of WM as the updates and changes are quite rare. I followed the shifting stones facade and it was laughably pathetic at best. It was almost on the scale of the Eldar codex doomsaying but instead of a clearly overpowered army ruleset as a whole, it was a nerf for a single unit and as you say, a situation most have never even seen take place.

It's the people, and that's that.

And PP came out with a faq to fix something that was broke. Exactly what GW should do but doesn't.

 hellpato wrote:
Is funny. Each time new stuff come from GW, everybody act like an angry teen who doesn't have what he wants. Nobody have enough guts to said : challenge accepted.

Would you accept a challenge to fight a horde of Bengal Tigers with just your kitchen knife? That is how competitive play against Eldar is going to feel... I guarantee it...

I am so happy to see that I am not the only one who came on here to make this post. I am currently setting up all my models for pictures. Gonna ebay them pretty soon. To all the Eldar players who spam the gak of the most terrible gak, and then pretend like its everyone elses' fault that they are upset, goodbye.

 Sidstyler wrote:
The Tyranid codex still pisses me off. I would have gotten a refund for the book if the store would have let me.

Ugh, I forgot about 5th edition. That one was bad enough, but the replacement being worse, for an army that was already struggling...it really feels like GW doesn't know what the feth it's doing. For a company that sells models it sure doesn't seem to know how to do that, other than forcing you to buy them with the new "decurion-style" detachments.

Agree^
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people. I think it is clear from responses that most players that have stopped buying GW product/stopped playing 40K did not really rage quit even if the term is used - it was a build up of issues and then the last straw did it. As Sid points out above the problems with nids (forget all the issues with other dexes/main rules) is enough to push players to quit. The 5th ed nid dex was garbage and I played for 4 years with it, with my interest on a steady decline with 40K and GW, always hoping things would improve and 40K would become a good game but constantly being disappointed. After the 5th edition nid dex came the late nid errata (6 months rather then the 3 months other dexes got) which didn't fix any of the issues and created new ones. Then 6th edition arrives which IMO was a mess and the wrong direction. I keep playing hoping for a new nid dex that will be a good product overall so that most units and biomorphs will be useable. The 6th ed nid dex drops and another bland piece of garbage with many issues not addressed or made worse (eg. useless trygon tunnel from previous dex copy-pasted so still useless and the tyranid prime upped in cost to absurd levels so is almost never taken anymore). As someone on the Tyranid Hive said nids have codex brainleech worms as devourers are practically a necessity on tyrants and fexes. To add insult to injury after paying for the outrageously priced dex, GW soon after releases dataslates so you can spend more money to try to get your army to work. This is followed by new units that should have either not existed (just fix the units in the dex that don't work/have poor rules) or should have been in the dex in the first place (the later re-emergence of the pod another example).

I stopped playing 40K and stopped buying GW product after the 6th nid dex and dataslates came out. I had taken enough crap from GW. I didn't sell anything (yet) but the way nids were treated in 5th and then 6th (with 7th edition coming out a few months later) drove me from the game. It was a build up of disappointment and anger. A game with so much potential and great models just keeps heading for the cliff, and for me 7th edition was just cutting the brake lines. The only thing keeping me from selling is the hope (as unlikely as it may be) that GWs current course either leads to its demise and someone buys the IP and makes 40K into a good game, or GW gets hurt enough from declining sales (or has an epiphany) and turns the game around with a massive overhaul that will likely upset many players as a lot of stuff may have to be cut out of the game (I did say it was very unlikely) .

 Ventus wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
The Tyranid codex still pisses me off. I would have gotten a refund for the book if the store would have let me.

Ugh, I forgot about 5th edition. That one was bad enough, but the replacement being worse, for an army that was already struggling...it really feels like GW doesn't know what the feth it's doing. For a company that sells models it sure doesn't seem to know how to do that, other than forcing you to buy them with the new "decurion-style" detachments.

Agree^
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people. I think it is clear from responses that most players that have stopped buying GW product/stopped playing 40K did not really rage quit even if the term is used - it was a build up of issues and then the last straw did it. As Sid points out above the problems with nids (forget all the issues with other dexes/main rules) is enough to push players to quit. The 5th ed nid dex was garbage and I played for 4 years with it, with my interest on a steady decline with 40K and GW, always hoping things would improve and 40K would become a good game but constantly being disappointed. After the 5th edition nid dex came the late nid errata (6 months rather then the 3 months other dexes got) which didn't fix any of the issues and created new ones. Then 6th edition arrives which IMO was a mess and the wrong direction. I keep playing hoping for a new nid dex that will be a good product overall so that most units and biomorphs will be useable. The 6th ed nid dex drops and another bland piece of garbage with many issues not addressed or made worse (eg. useless trygon tunnel from previous dex copy-pasted so still useless and the tyranid prime upped in cost to absurd levels so is almost never taken anymore). To add insult to injury after paying for the outrageously priced dex, GW soon after releases dataslates so you can spend more money to try to get your army to work. This is followed by new units that should have either not existed (just fix the units in the dex that don't work/have poor rules) or should have been in the dex in the first place (the later re-emergence of the pod another example).

I stopped playing 40K and stopped buying GW product after the 6th nid dex and dataslates came out. I had taken enough crap from GW. I didn't sell anything (yet) but the way nids were treated in 6th (with 7th edition coming out a few months later) drove me from the game. It was a build up of disappointment and anger. A game with so much potential and great models just keeps heading for the cliff, and for me 7th edition was just cutting the brake lines. The only thing keeping me from selling is the hope (as unlikely as it may be) that GWs current course either leads to its demise and someone buys the IP and makes 40K into a good game, or GW gets hurt enough from declining sales (or has an epiphany) and turns the game around with a massive overhaul that will likely upset many players as a lot of stuff may have to be cut out of the game (I did say it was very unlikely) .

Not sure how likely the epiphany is. We're under the new CEO and look what we're getting.

I agree MWHistorian. I don't expect anything to change - it is a faint hope because I would like 40K to be a good game. I like nids and most of the models.

 Ventus wrote:
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people.

I think it's the perfect term. Organized tournaments will houseful anything they consider unhelpful (ie. Invisibility). Friends will do the same.

I doubt many people have played too many games against Eldar yet either. Half the guys complaining are saying they quit 40k months ago anyway.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 hellpato wrote:
Is funny. Each time new stuff come from GW, everybody act like an angry teen who doesn't have what he wants. Nobody have enough guts to said : challenge accepted.

Would you accept a challenge to fight a horde of Bengal Tigers with just your kitchen knife? That is how competitive play against Eldar is going to feel... I guarantee it...

Depends. Do I get to pick the when and where? Then bring it on.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Ventus wrote:
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people.

I think it's the perfect term. Organized tournaments will houseful anything they consider unhelpful (ie. Invisibility). Friends will do the same.

I doubt many people have played too many games against Eldar yet either....

People have been playing against Eldar for over 20 years.
Just kidding.
But what I'm trying to say is that this new dex is like the old one (which was the strongest dex out there) only stronger. So, I think people have a good idea what it's like.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 hellpato wrote:
Is funny. Each time new stuff come from GW, everybody act like an angry teen who doesn't have what he wants. Nobody have enough guts to said : challenge accepted.

Would you accept a challenge to fight a horde of Bengal Tigers with just your kitchen knife? That is how competitive play against Eldar is going to feel... I guarantee it...

Depends. Do I get to pick the when and where? Then bring it on.

I don't see why when matters when they're asleep?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 hellpato wrote:
Is funny. Each time new stuff come from GW, everybody act like an angry teen who doesn't have what he wants. Nobody have enough guts to said : challenge accepted.

Would you accept a challenge to fight a horde of Bengal Tigers with just your kitchen knife? That is how competitive play against Eldar is going to feel... I guarantee it...

Depends. Do I get to pick the when and where? Then bring it on.

I don't see why when matters when they're asleep?

When are they attacking? If its at a set time, I can prepare, ala Predator.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 hellpato wrote:
Is funny. Each time new stuff come from GW, everybody act like an angry teen who doesn't have what he wants. Nobody have enough guts to said : challenge accepted.

Would you accept a challenge to fight a horde of Bengal Tigers with just your kitchen knife? That is how competitive play against Eldar is going to feel... I guarantee it...

Depends. Do I get to pick the when and where? Then bring it on.

I don't see why when matters when they're asleep?

When are they attacking? If its at a set time, I can prepare, ala Predator.

Prepare? All you have is your kitchen knife. What are you going to prepare?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Unsurprisingly, the same kneejerking does indeed happen in other games just the same. Just not as often in the case of WM as the updates and changes are quite rare. I followed the shifting stones facade and it was laughably pathetic at best. It was almost on the scale of the Eldar codex doomsaying but instead of a clearly overpowered army ruleset as a whole, it was a nerf for a single unit and as you say, a situation most have never even seen take place.

It's the people, and that's that.

And PP came out with a faq to fix something that was broke. Exactly what GW should do but doesn't.

It wasn't broken, it was a hilariously easily countered edge case that's theoretically possible and I've never seen even attempted because of how little attention your opponent has to be paying for it to work.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Ventus wrote:
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people.

I think it's the perfect term. Organized tournaments will houseful anything they consider unhelpful (ie. Invisibility). Friends will do the same.

I doubt many people have played too many games against Eldar yet either. Half the guys complaining are saying they quit 40k months ago anyway.

I meant that rage quit sounds like one bad rule showed up and the person said "that's a crazy stupid rule...I quit" where if not for that stupid, broken rule everything would be fine and they would be happy to keep playing 40K. If so then yes, house ruling would make the game fine again. IMO it is a build up that leads to the 'rage quit' or just quitting so it is a last straw...had enough abuse...whatever. By fixing Eldar (assuming it is as broken as people say - I don't know), IMO, the game of 40K is an unbalanced mess or overpriced product for lousy quality.

Traps from the natural terrain of course, some way to incapacitate or contain it in defenceless position.

I'm actually primarily in this to make a fluff based diorama but I predict I'll play from time to time when I make a trip to the cities. No need to sell your stuff. I used to play MTG pretty hardcore but was not happy of it constantly escalating and reaching titans was when I left. I never got rid of my cards and sometimes I still find someone to play,

 jreilly89 wrote:
Except people HAVE tried to make GW listen. Petitions, stores themselves approaching GW, tournies and TOs, plenty of people have tried to talk to GW. GW has just reaffirmed that they are a toy company first and a game company second, if at all. GW obviously does not care about a) balance, effectiveness or anything of the competitive nature, b) making money and smart business moves, ala shutting down a lot of stores and vendors and c) what their customers think.

That "toy company not a game company" bit is the biggest lie of all. People don't buy 5 boxes of the unit of the month because they collect the minis. They buy them because they think their army now has to have all of those to be the best. Without the game their mini sales disappear. Also continuing to rewrite and resell codecies and rules over and over makes the rules a primary revenue stream. Certainly can't convince me that those collectors' editions of the recent codecies are products for a "toy" company. Without the rules revenue their sales would, again, disappear. GW itself is the most deluded part of this equation. Without their game they won't exist anymore.

 Ventus wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Ventus wrote:
I think the term 'rage quit' is the problem for some people.

I think it's the perfect term. Organized tournaments will houseful anything they consider unhelpful (ie. Invisibility). Friends will do the same.

I doubt many people have played too many games against Eldar yet either. Half the guys complaining are saying they quit 40k months ago anyway.

I meant that rage quit sounds like one bad rule showed up and the person said "that's a crazy stupid rule...I quit" where if not for that stupid, broken rule everything would be fine and they would be happy to keep playing 40K. If so then yes, house ruling would make the game fine again. IMO it is a build up that leads to the 'rage quit' or just quitting so it is a last straw...had enough abuse...whatever. By fixing Eldar (assuming it is as broken as people say - I don't know), IMO, the game of 40K is an unbalanced mess or overpriced product for lousy quality.

Exactly. I'm not sure what people aren't getting about the fact that if someone leaves the game because of the Eldar dex, it's almost certainly because the Eldar dex is the final straw, and they've finally reached the breaking point for that person.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

X-wing is not perfect, but in my view, it has far better balance than 40k.

Not difficult. You can have a game that's built around list-building broken combos instead of actually playing the game and make it better-balanced than 40k, that doesn't change the fact that it's a game about list-building broken combos, not about playing the game.

This is why I like Infinity and WMH. There are no broken combos to list-build, you have to actually play the game to get even the scariest model to do its thing and kill people instead of flying slowly around in a circle repeating the same sequence of three actions and shooting across the whole table with a turret every turn or camping in your deployment zone with bigger guns than the other guy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Those 97% must not have been very competitive. Every circle player I know was using Brad for T2 caster kills with his tier list and teleport shenanigans. The difference between GW and PP is PP realized this wasn't fun or balanced so they issued an errata. The wave serpent ran amok for 2 years only to be replaced by the even more OP scatbike/D party army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:
The Tyranid codex still pisses me off. I would have gotten a refund for the book if the store would have let me.

Ugh, I forgot about 5th edition. That one was bad enough, but the replacement being worse, for an army that was already struggling...it really feels like GW doesn't know what the feth it's doing. For a company that sells models it sure doesn't seem to know how to do that, other than forcing you to buy them with the new "decurion-style" detachments.

Is that why nids just won a major tournament? Their codex allows you to take 5 of one of the best models in the game in a battleforged list. What are you QQing about? There's a big difference between "this book sucks" and "the models I own suck in this book and I don't want to buy any flyrants".

 Toofast wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Those 97% must not have been very competitive. Every circle player I know was using Brad for T2 caster kills with his tier list and teleport shenanigans. The difference between GW and PP is PP realized this wasn't fun or balanced so they issued an errata. The wave serpent ran amok for 2 years only to be replaced by the even more OP scatbike/D party army.

You have to perfectly telegraph what you're doing a turn in advance, you have to get at least one unit of stones within about ten inches of their caster a turn in advance, you have almost no screening infantry 'cause of tier, and killing one ARM 18 five-box model completely kills the strategy. I think the opponents to your Circle players weren't very competitive.

 Toofast wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(For the curious the FAQ said you could only teleport a model once for a total of 8" instead of chaining three teleports for 24" of movement, the Internet exploded in a frenzy of "THIS SUCKS I'M SELLING CIRCLE", and actual Circle players shrugged and got on with their day without one incredibly, incredibly situational trick that 97% of them had never been in a situation where it would have been possible, let alone made a difference)

Those 97% must not have been very competitive. Every circle player I know was using Brad for T2 caster kills with his tier list and teleport shenanigans. The difference between GW and PP is PP realized this wasn't fun or balanced so they issued an errata. The wave serpent ran amok for 2 years only to be replaced by the even more OP scatbike/D party army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:
The Tyranid codex still pisses me off. I would have gotten a refund for the book if the store would have let me.

Ugh, I forgot about 5th edition. That one was bad enough, but the replacement being worse, for an army that was already struggling...it really feels like GW doesn't know what the feth it's doing. For a company that sells models it sure doesn't seem to know how to do that, other than forcing you to buy them with the new "decurion-style" detachments.

Is that why nids just won a major tournament? Their codex allows you to take 5 of one of the best models in the game in a battleforged list. What are you QQing about? There's a big difference between "this book sucks" and "the models I own suck in this book and I don't want to buy any flyrants".

But how can you not see the obvious issue with what you are saying?! Sure, there will be the nid player that has no problem with 5 flyrants armed with TL devourers. But not everyone wants to have 5 flyrants in their list. I mean one tyrant is supposed to control a vast area of an invasion. The little area we play on always having 3-5 flyrants is silly for some people that want sort of follow the fluff or don't like spamming all the time. And they shouldn't have to. All the units in an dex should be decent choices and all their biomorphs/wargear should be decent options. Of course there can be bad match-ups or mistakes/poor choices (eg. you chose to arm all your SM with flamers wherever you can and little to no anti-tank and end up facing a vehicle heavy list).

What you are implying is that if the next nid dex comes out and triples the cost of everything and makes their stats worse - except for the pyrovore that now has 20 wounds, can't be insta-killed, 2++ re-rollable save and now fires 10 AP1 36" supervolcanic bolts of energy or 10 36" Str 8 Ap2 large blasts and you can take 20 of them in your army, nid players should be happy if these guarantee you victories over every army. It doesn't matter if everything else is garbage - GW gave you a winning model - just buy 20 and you are golden. You cannot see why some people would have issues with this game design philosophy? Seriously?

It is not about getting new options that you can include in an army - it is about undermining lots of your previous overpriced purchases of GW models and not just being forced to buy a new model but buy 5 of them as in your example. So if the new Eldar dex is as broken as some say and they can walk over many opponents they should be happy. The objective is to pay to win or win regardless of the quality of the game with your opponent? Many of us want a relatively balanced game (so you can use a variety of units and builds) where the game is enjoyable and a challenge for both players. For the high cost of this game GW should provide quality rules.

Part of the biggest problem in general is that in one breath GW says 40k is meant for fluffy/narrative/casual play (insert word of choice) but the actual rules encourage skew/spam lists and throwing the fluff out the window if you want to win or else make it so that a fluffy list is also insanely powerful and will crush anything that doesn't throw the fluff out the window.

They're lying through their teeth to everybody: The guy who wants to play 5 Tyrants and fluff be damned, the guy who wants to play fluffy Dark Angels and gets steamrolled because they aren't good, the fluffy Saim-Hann player who fields a ton of Jetbikes that just got huge buffs and now gets labeled a WAAC cheesemonger through no fault of his own. All of these people are being screwed by the fact GW cannot balance the game to where one fluffy army won't stomp another fluffy army if their fluffy units are better than the other guy's fluffy units because reasons.

That's the biggest problem here. As someone who has considered playing several times and would only play fluffy lists, it's no fun to do research on something cool and find out it'd play like gak in the game even against other fluffy armies. Why should Bob suffer for wanting to play fluffy Dark Angels when Jim is rewarded for playing fluffy Eldar? Especially when Jim will crush Bob for no other reason than the units Jim likes are better than the units Bob likes.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Part of the biggest problem in general is that in one breath GW says 40k is meant for fluffy/narrative/casual play (insert word of choice) but the actual rules encourage skew/spam lists and throwing the fluff out the window if you want to win or else make it so that a fluffy list is also insanely powerful and will crush anything that doesn't throw the fluff out the window.

They're lying through their teeth to everybody: The guy who wants to play 5 Tyrants and fluff be damned, the guy who wants to play fluffy Dark Angels and gets steamrolled because they aren't good, the fluffy Saim-Hann player who fields a ton of Jetbikes that just got huge buffs and now gets labeled a WAAC cheesemonger through no fault of his own. All of these people are being screwed by the fact GW cannot balance the game to where one fluffy army won't stomp another fluffy army if their fluffy units are better than the other guy's fluffy units because reasons.

That's the biggest problem here. As someone who has considered playing several times and would only play fluffy lists, it's no fun to do research on something cool and find out it'd play like gak in the game even against other fluffy armies. Why should Bob suffer for wanting to play fluffy Dark Angels when Jim is rewarded for playing fluffy Eldar? Especially when Jim will crush Bob for no other reason than the units Jim likes are better than the units Bob likes.

Exactly.

Can someone post a link or a source to the changes that the OP is talking about?

Jaxler wrote:
Can someone post a link or a source to the changes that the OP is talking about?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/640806.page

First page has most of the changes I think.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Part of the biggest problem in general is that in one breath GW says 40k is meant for fluffy/narrative/casual play (insert word of choice) but the actual rules encourage skew/spam lists and throwing the fluff out the window if you want to win or else make it so that a fluffy list is also insanely powerful and will crush anything that doesn't throw the fluff out the window.

They're lying through their teeth to everybody: The guy who wants to play 5 Tyrants and fluff be damned, the guy who wants to play fluffy Dark Angels and gets steamrolled because they aren't good, the fluffy Saim-Hann player who fields a ton of Jetbikes that just got huge buffs and now gets labeled a WAAC cheesemonger through no fault of his own. All of these people are being screwed by the fact GW cannot balance the game to where one fluffy army won't stomp another fluffy army if their fluffy units are better than the other guy's fluffy units because reasons.

That's the biggest problem here. As someone who has considered playing several times and would only play fluffy lists, it's no fun to do research on something cool and find out it'd play like gak in the game even against other fluffy armies. Why should Bob suffer for wanting to play fluffy Dark Angels when Jim is rewarded for playing fluffy Eldar? Especially when Jim will crush Bob for no other reason than the units Jim likes are better than the units Bob likes.

If Jim and Bob like playing each other, Jim will adjust his army so that Bob can win roughly half the time. Otherwise, they will need to find different play groups. And if either isn't satisfactory to them, 40k is the wrong game for them -- and probably never will be.

Here's another one: if Jim and Bob both play chess or golf but Jim is just much more skilled, and therefore 100% of the time, should they just never play each other? This scenario happens ALL the time. The correct solution if Jim or Bob are buddies is for Jim to take a handicap.