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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Ah brilliant, thanks for clarifying! Nice reports btw
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




One thing I've noticed that you never seem to have a match against Imperial Guard.

With Guard dominated soup armies being so common on top tables in tournaments, you have to have some thoughts about them
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

stratigo wrote:
One thing I've noticed that you never seem to have a match against Imperial Guard.

With Guard dominated soup armies being so common on top tables in tournaments, you have to have some thoughts about them


There's not a log of IG in my meta, I believe there's one good player for them in the state, there's another guy who runs the 3 Baneblade list, and there's another who was running a Catachan Artillery line but I haven't spoken to him in a bit and his list was heavily nerfed in Chapter Approved, I think it went up by like 200 Points total (lots of Forge World stuff). I think if ITC Missions weren't a thing there'd be no point to playing anything but Guard or Guard with some soup elements, they have extremely undercosted vehicles still, some of the best Stratgegems while being one of the best armies for getting and recurring Command Points, and they have some of the best Relics. Guard is all about cheap, overlapping Auras that turn zeroes into heroes which has very little counterplay right now, they are vulnerable to Snipers because of T3 and generally bad Armor Saves/Wound values but Snipers are still very overpriced and not every Faction has them. They'd also be more oppressive if it weren't for the proliferation of Minus to Hit in the meta, most Chaos/Eldar/Tyranids/Marines are crutching on that hard in the Guard matchup and they don't have much of an answer to it. The faction is also really bad at progressive scoring missions as I mentioned, they don't want to move since it either incurs shooting penalties or puts their support nearer to the front. The repeated Conscript nerfs means you either have to put Infantry Squads on an Objective as the cheap chaff but they die/run very easily or you have to dedicate with something like Bullgryn who cannot be everywhere at once. This isn't in all ITC MIssions but it comes up in like 4/6 which means over the course of even a 3 Round Tournament you're going to be walking uphill at least once.

Guard are an army I've thought about playing but the meta is unkind to them and frankly I consider them boring. They're one of my least favorite armies to play against because they just don't move and you watch your opponent roll dice forever. The Baneblade Spam build seems popular, I think because it's easy to get together, paint, and play but it's pretty awful since it has no Scenario game and is among the most Alpha-Strike weak armies in the game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I dunno, guard seem to have some really strong mobile elements if they really need them, but often even under ITC, just shooting your enemy to death fast seems to work out.
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

stratigo wrote:
I dunno, guard seem to have some really strong mobile elements if they really need them, but often even under ITC, just shooting your enemy to death fast seems to work out.


My intention was not to say they're weak, I was commenting that without those two big obstacles they'd likely be the only meaningful competitive faction in the game because they're that good. My opinion is that's bad design because it further incentivizes the -1 to Hit Meta which really keeps some armies down (Orks!) and it makes Guard oppressive when you do not have that tool available to you. Guard walks over armies without -1 to Hit, as you said shooting them off the table fast is completely viable under those circumstances. They also don't take nearly enough punishment for having to use Fall Back because of their composition so melee armies are heavily punished for playing into them, even if they're fast i.e. Dark Eldar/Blood Angels.

I would disagree that they have fast Objective holders. Rough Riders have too many stipulations on their Deep Strike and their profile makes it hard to hide them, they also have Morale issues in larger groups. Bullgryn are slow and have other roles. Sentinels are a possiblity but they die very quickly and might be a drawback depending on composition, they also can't hide easily. Beyond that you have Elysians/Scions but those can be denied unless they come down early and Scions are also a damage unit. Tanks don't make good Objective holders for a variety of reasons, Fliers can't hold Objectives. So it's probably Elysian Infantry, which can harm composition, or regular Infantry units with Move, Move, Move. I wouldn't rate either of those as anything past average.

You see Guard struggle against the top armies now because of the -1 to Hit stacking, if they hit that on top of a bad Scenario then it's extremely hard to win. So most people are just putting them in the soup as backline support and grabbing Marines, Krey Knights, etc. to do the upfront work. I wish soup armies didn't exist but that's an entirely different discussion.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the problem here is simply that the -1 to hit traits is objectively better than any of the alternatives in 9 out of 10 cases. You definitely see a significant over-representation of Alpha Legion, Raven Guard and Alaitoc. And why wouldn't you?

But then again, if your Gnarlmaw build becomes the new cool thing, then I fully expect a lot people to enter tournaments with their blue-painted Guilliman-buffed Imperial Fist lascannon devastators. And why wouldn't you?
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

pismakron wrote:
I think the problem here is simply that the -1 to hit traits is objectively better than any of the alternatives in 9 out of 10 cases. You definitely see a significant over-representation of Alpha Legion, Raven Guard and Alaitoc. And why wouldn't you?

But then again, if your Gnarlmaw build becomes the new cool thing, then I fully expect a lot people to enter tournaments with their blue-painted Guilliman-buffed Imperial Fist lascannon devastators. And why wouldn't you?


No you're 100% correct, -1 to Hit stacking is going to have to be addressed longterm because it's so oppressive in the meta. Eldar is the worst by far, Chaos used to be but The Changeling took a hammer to the face. I think Eldar shouldn't get Craftworld Traits on Vehicles but what do I know? really confusing why SM/CSM gets it on certain things and then every army started getting it on every model. I prefer it to be Infantry only with a few additions here and there i.e. Dreadnoughts.

I doubt my build will catch on, I'm already probably dropping the Gnarlmaw. Making it a Fortification makes it soooooo hard to include in Matched Play, armies don't work with two Detachments in many cases. And Slimux is so horrifically overpriced that I can't bring myself to use him, he does nothing. I was hoping he'd make a free tree in Matched Play or something but nope.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the tree's a fortification? whut? Why?
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

stratigo wrote:
the tree's a fortification? whut? Why?


Because GW doesn't like selling cool and interesting models I guess.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 The Prince of Excess wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the tree's a fortification? whut? Why?


Because GW doesn't like selling cool and interesting models I guess.


More they have trouble thinking outside the box.
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

stratigo wrote:
 The Prince of Excess wrote:
stratigo wrote:
the tree's a fortification? whut? Why?


Because GW doesn't like selling cool and interesting models I guess.


More they have trouble thinking outside the box.


My honest answer is that I think they believed the model is better than it is. It's nearly useless for a Nurgle Demon army, the Cover is extremely hard to get with units in the size they take and no one cares about a 4+ vs. a 5++ when you have to jump through so many hoops to get it. Being able to Advance and Charge is good but you have to plan ahead and your opponent will see it coming. It's really only useful for Vehicles and Obliterators at this point since you can avoid the tie up strategy but that strategy is very hard to make use of when you play down an entire Detachment or have to pay a 165pt tax that doesn't help your army in other ways.
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

New Report against Tyranids with me using kind of a hodge-podge army before the Thousand Sons Codex dropped. Come check out my frustration with having to use Plagueburst Crawlers because GW says so.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

While I hate PBC spam, I love the end where you basically echo that... you only play it because it wins, lol. I hope they do stomp soup armies into the ground, maybe then we will see more... varience.. in builds. Seeing the same few units is boring!

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1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
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Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

 Zid wrote:
While I hate PBC spam, I love the end where you basically echo that... you only play it because it wins, lol. I hope they do stomp soup armies into the ground, maybe then we will see more... varience.. in builds. Seeing the same few units is boring!


Yeah I'm really not going to pretend it's an interesting army. I was digging playing 3-5 with some other things but then you look at the list and you say "Wait....why isn't all of this just more Crawlers?" I tried so hard to find something else in Chaos but they're so underpriced it bends the faction. They're two points LESS than a Blight-Hauler! How is that allowed? 10pts less than a Decimator Dreadnought with Butchers, they're cheaper than everything. Ugh. At least the OP Ynaari armies have variety to them.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
 Zid wrote:
While I hate PBC spam, I love the end where you basically echo that... you only play it because it wins, lol. I hope they do stomp soup armies into the ground, maybe then we will see more... varience.. in builds. Seeing the same few units is boring!


Yeah I'm really not going to pretend it's an interesting army. I was digging playing 3-5 with some other things but then you look at the list and you say "Wait....why isn't all of this just more Crawlers?" I tried so hard to find something else in Chaos but they're so underpriced it bends the faction. They're two points LESS than a Blight-Hauler! How is that allowed? 10pts less than a Decimator Dreadnought with Butchers, they're cheaper than everything. Ugh. At least the OP Ynaari armies have variety to them.


Thats because they can make many units work in various roles; Chaos, like Marines, is very pigeonholed. Even with Demon detachments most of the detachments become "blob of 30 basic troops, herald, demon prince". GW really should have removed the ability to soup with 8th; pick a faction and maybe get a few options outside, but thats it. Its really weird seeing people field 3 different detachments from 3 different armies and only have 1-2 models from 2 factions, and the bulk of the "army" from the other. Most players are guilty of this, myself included, because options outside your basic codex are so good (warptime... sole reason I have a CSM detachment). Part of the beauty of 5th was finding things within your own codex to address various threats; people could find their own answers, which meant more variety in builds.

By allowing you to basically mix and match between factions creates the abuse we see.... plus low cost solutions you can spam. They really ought to have a "max allowed" tacked to specialist units; this wound also bring some flavor to some armies. For example, for Death Guard they can bring 2 Terminator squads, but Deathwing can have unlimited terminators.

Theres really a lot of directions they can take the game and make it infinitely better. I just hate that chaos comp lists have devolved into a billion PBC's, a billion Obliterators, or some variation therein.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/05 00:28:52


Check out my P&M Blog!
Check out my YouTube channel, Heretic Wargaming USA: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA
Latest Tourney results:
1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
3rd Place ITC Tourney 06/08/18(Battlereps
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

You're 100% right, I only play Chaos because under the current rules they will always be good and I didn't want to buy into Imperium since that's too expansive. Ynaari turns anything on because the benefits are too big, the game isn't made to have units act multiple times and Eldar ignores the rules of the game like no other army. I think they need to admit Soul Burst is a failure and try something else, give them a Codex with Harlequins at some point and just start over.

Soup really does need to go, there was a post from FLG, I think today, that insinuated GW will be making changes to soup armies in March. I really hope that's the case, Detachments are too permissive with that stuff. If they said, which a guy in one of my Facebook Groups suggested, you can take an "allied" Patrol Detachment overnight a lot of these armies are gone. No more Battle Forged Chaos/Imperium/Aeldari but you can sneak some Demons in a Patrol or some Guardsmen. That seems very fair and elegant to me.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
You're 100% right, I only play Chaos because under the current rules they will always be good and I didn't want to buy into Imperium since that's too expansive. Ynaari turns anything on because the benefits are too big, the game isn't made to have units act multiple times and Eldar ignores the rules of the game like no other army. I think they need to admit Soul Burst is a failure and try something else, give them a Codex with Harlequins at some point and just start over.

Soup really does need to go, there was a post from FLG, I think today, that insinuated GW will be making changes to soup armies in March. I really hope that's the case, Detachments are too permissive with that stuff. If they said, which a guy in one of my Facebook Groups suggested, you can take an "allied" Patrol Detachment overnight a lot of these armies are gone. No more Battle Forged Chaos/Imperium/Aeldari but you can sneak some Demons in a Patrol or some Guardsmen. That seems very fair and elegant to me.


I definitely like that idea, I'd love for them to go back to a version of the old FOC for smaller games (say, 2,500 or less). Its just kind of stupid allowing people to essentially run whatever they want... I get they want the game to be expansive and living, but in a competitive environment, people will purposely try to bend and break the rules when they can to win. Restrictions need to be placed to keep the game as fair and objective as possible when you want it to be competitive. At the same point, you want the games to be interesting; to me its pretty sad that the armies that need to be ran as a "pure" list, like Tyranids, can't see the top 8 because they can't game the system.

I love Chaos, they were my second army in 5th, and one I'll probably stick with now. I'm happy my first games have been against more varied lists that try to be competitive, but still be an actual "army". I do hope they nerf detachments to make armies more like... ya know, an army.

Check out my P&M Blog!
Check out my YouTube channel, Heretic Wargaming USA: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA
Latest Tourney results:
1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
3rd Place ITC Tourney 06/08/18(Battlereps
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 The Prince of Excess wrote:
You're 100% right, I only play Chaos because under the current rules they will always be good and I didn't want to buy into Imperium since that's too expansive. Ynaari turns anything on because the benefits are too big, the game isn't made to have units act multiple times and Eldar ignores the rules of the game like no other army. I think they need to admit Soul Burst is a failure and try something else, give them a Codex with Harlequins at some point and just start over.

Soup really does need to go, there was a post from FLG, I think today, that insinuated GW will be making changes to soup armies in March. I really hope that's the case, Detachments are too permissive with that stuff. If they said, which a guy in one of my Facebook Groups suggested, you can take an "allied" Patrol Detachment overnight a lot of these armies are gone. No more Battle Forged Chaos/Imperium/Aeldari but you can sneak some Demons in a Patrol or some Guardsmen. That seems very fair and elegant to me.


Be bummer for me since I just grabbed a lot of custodes bikers and I love to slot them in to my ultramarines.
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

Back after way too long with two very abridged reports, I explain why in the post. I'll be getting back to my regular posting schedule now that I no longer hate playing 40K.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Skullreaver putting in work

Glad to have you back, looking forward to the full reports, well stomped in these lil' ones.

- Salvage

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

New, Full Battle Report up against Blood Angels. I'm trying to get really in-depth with both my mistakes and my opponent's mistakes, which was the original point of these anyways.

Still figuring out some of the pieces with the list but this is the most complete game I've played with it. Hoping to get more games in this weekend, let me know what you think.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

Loving the new list question, whats the point of abaddon in it? Also, 200 cultists will be hard for many lists to crack; its a classic death by 1000 cuts style of gameplay

Check out my P&M Blog!
Check out my YouTube channel, Heretic Wargaming USA: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA
Latest Tourney results:
1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
3rd Place ITC Tourney 06/08/18(Battlereps
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

 Zid wrote:
Loving the new list question, whats the point of abaddon in it? Also, 200 cultists will be hard for many lists to crack; its a classic death by 1000 cuts style of gameplay


Abaddon keeps them from running away as he makes Heretic Astartes Fearless, not just Black Legion. He's a very expensive tax but he's also a great fighter and a very hard Warlord to kill for ITC purposes. I think he needs a points reduction but I'll run him as is.

You're correct, the list is extremely attrition based. That works with my playstyle very well, I'm very much a slow and methodical kind of guy. I also take some pleasure in watching people's faces when they don't quite finish off a unit of Cultists, knowing they'll come back shiny and new.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
 Zid wrote:
Loving the new list question, whats the point of abaddon in it? Also, 200 cultists will be hard for many lists to crack; its a classic death by 1000 cuts style of gameplay


Abaddon keeps them from running away as he makes Heretic Astartes Fearless, not just Black Legion. He's a very expensive tax but he's also a great fighter and a very hard Warlord to kill for ITC purposes. I think he needs a points reduction but I'll run him as is.

You're correct, the list is extremely attrition based. That works with my playstyle very well, I'm very much a slow and methodical kind of guy. I also take some pleasure in watching people's faces when they don't quite finish off a unit of Cultists, knowing they'll come back shiny and new.


Ahhh nice catch with Abaddon! I was a huge fan of his back in 5th, the dude was a beat stick. He can easily kill units, monsters, or vehicles. Even now, I love his rules, but as you said, for the cost I've been avoiding going with him (plus hes not... nurgly... nurgle is best!)

I really like the new list, though. I feel many opponents come loaded for bear but forget about the mice; you need to be able to tackle the large stuff, yes, but in 8th the small stuff en-masse is even more deadly, which is a huge change from previous editions where low strength, high fire weaponry could be ineffective against high toughness. I think you will find a lot of success; I'd be interested in seeing it facing something like a great Tyranid army, or maybe the PBC list you hate to run, haha. Orcs would be an equally interesting matchup; a billion boyz versus a billion cultists.

Check out my P&M Blog!
Check out my YouTube channel, Heretic Wargaming USA: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA
Latest Tourney results:
1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
3rd Place ITC Tourney 06/08/18(Battlereps
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

FWIW I like the new list as well. It's got some crazy kill strength thanks to cheap cultists + good psychics + great strats, but it doesn't feel as boring as typical chaos netlists that triple down on oblits or spam daemon princes (or PBC ). It helps that I like horde armies ... and also helps that these blobs are hella good at objectives. Also I'm tickled by the warpsmith spam, including the random World Eater one

So anyway, it's a smart, strong, biiiig army that I enjoy hearing about, which I can't say for most high end 48k armies, which tend to be obvious, strong, small and kind of boring to see in action

- Salvage

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

Thanks for the votes of confidence. I also think the list will do well, although I wouldn't put it at Tier 1. I kind of go by the old TCG Metrics (my early competitive days) where Tier 2 can often beat Tier 1 since they don't load up against it but it can also lose to random jank. Most high end armies wouldn't be unhappy to see someone new to the game bringing 9 Inceptors to the table, but I sure would.

I hope to play against the PBC army sometime soon, I might even just give one of my buddies my list and have them play it against me. I think the list does very well against it, that army has zero offense against me Turn 1 and I have all the Scenario game. Math averages out to killing ~3 of them per turn once inside Meltagun range but there's of course hiccups in that, meanwhile the Crawlers kill 7 Cultists on average each and their other guns are very hard to get value out of. But we'll see how that translates in game.

I really think more Chaos Players should get on the Warpsmith bandwagon, even if they never repair/curse something they're still so good for their points. I'm foaming at the mouth to play against Ynaari/Eldar with a lot of Psychic and use the Brass Collar + Demon Strategem, losing Warlocks is really bad for that list if you can get there. I'll take the Mortal Wounds against other lists too, very rare right now to see armies without Psykers and I don't think Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar are going to carve out a big swathe of the player base.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

 The Prince of Excess wrote:
Thanks for the votes of confidence. I also think the list will do well, although I wouldn't put it at Tier 1. I kind of go by the old TCG Metrics (my early competitive days) where Tier 2 can often beat Tier 1 since they don't load up against it but it can also lose to random jank. Most high end armies wouldn't be unhappy to see someone new to the game bringing 9 Inceptors to the table, but I sure would.

I hope to play against the PBC army sometime soon, I might even just give one of my buddies my list and have them play it against me. I think the list does very well against it, that army has zero offense against me Turn 1 and I have all the Scenario game. Math averages out to killing ~3 of them per turn once inside Meltagun range but there's of course hiccups in that, meanwhile the Crawlers kill 7 Cultists on average each and their other guns are very hard to get value out of. But we'll see how that translates in game.

I really think more Chaos Players should get on the Warpsmith bandwagon, even if they never repair/curse something they're still so good for their points. I'm foaming at the mouth to play against Ynaari/Eldar with a lot of Psychic and use the Brass Collar + Demon Strategem, losing Warlocks is really bad for that list if you can get there. I'll take the Mortal Wounds against other lists too, very rare right now to see armies without Psykers and I don't think Tau/Necrons/Dark Eldar are going to carve out a big swathe of the player base.


I think I may look into some Warpsmiths in the future, and I can see your point on PBC spam; it doesn't really have volume of fire. Max is 12 shots per PBC, so unless they get extremely lucky.... How do you think you'd fare against something like massed Zerkers or Bloodletter bombs?

Check out my P&M Blog!
Check out my YouTube channel, Heretic Wargaming USA: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA
Latest Tourney results:
1st Place Special Mission tourney 12/15/18 (Battlereps)
2nd Place ITC tourney 08/20/18 ( Battlerep)
3rd Place ITC Tourney 06/08/18(Battlereps
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




As an aside, have you considered touching Necromunda?
   
Made in us
Warwick Kinrade




Mesa, Arizona

Back with a Tournament Report, 3 Round RTT. Mostly game overviews as it's very hard to do exact writeups of tournament games, at least for me. I also took what pictures I could so I hope it's worth a read. :]
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Herb's the reason I have no interest in tournaments. One of those dudes would ruin my day. It's easier to just play with the tournament goers in my region. Albeit, I gather that I am graced for the area I play in as it's one of the most active in the country.
   
 
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