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p5freak wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just realised that Death Company can have Chainswords and Powers Weapons.

Better than Bolt Pistol/CCW? Assembling my Death Company Strike Force and just about started Death Company.

I think that company veterans are better than DC, because their choice of weapons is so much better. Give them storm bolters and power axes. A 10 model unit can unleash a bullet storm of 40 shots on the enemy, if within 12". With power axes and red thirst they are wounding T4 on 2+. A cheap captain nearby lets them reroll 1s to hit. You can give them SS for better surviveability. They can use two chainswords. Add a sanguinary priest for S+1, and you wound T4 on 2+. Give some of them two inferno pistols, once they are within 3" they can melt even the toughest monsters, daemons, vehicles, etc. Inferno pistols are so much better than any CC weapon. Two of those at 3" can do 12 damage, for 18 pts. Or give them plasmaguns, 10 models have 20 shots at 12". Overcharge with a captain nearby, to reroll 1s. Company veterans are incredible flexible. Index version can use JP.

Don't Company Veterans only come in squads of five? It's an interesting idea, but which such small squad sizes I think you're gonna run into Descent of Angels inefficiency and you really wanna maximize use of that stratagem IMO.

What about a captain with a jump pack and two lightning claws? Give him the +1 dmg warlord trait on a claw and he's doing 5 attacks of 2dmg, re-rolling wounds. Make him a death company captain and he's getting +1 attack on th charge, librarian can give him another +1 with a spell and use a CP to give him an extra d3 on the charge. Add a Sanguinary priest for +1 str.
He'd get 8-10 attacks, hitting and wounding on 2's, re-rolling and he's only 107pts

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Don't Company Veterans only come in squads of five? It's an interesting idea, but which such small squad sizes I think you're gonna run into Descent of Angels inefficiency and you really wanna maximize use of that stratagem IMO.

Yes, i forgot about the 5 model unit size. Thats their disadvantage. Two units would require a rhino to get them close.

I can't imagine that the best use for DoA is not either a roughly max-sized DC or SG unit. VV are 18 pts per model vs the DC's 20 but they lose the ability to synergize with Lemartes' charge reroll and are less durable per pt vs typical D1 shooting. Their max unit size is smaller and their special weapon options are mostly traps - the return on damage investment is small while the durability per pt only goes down. The cheapest options are generally more efficient for either unit, and in that category bolter+chainsword trumps double chainsword given that DC already has the extra attack on the charge. If your meta doesn't require chaff-killers and you want to gear your unit towards high-T targets with good saves then SG is a better choice than VV.

If both SG and DC turn out to be ineffective with DoA then I doubt that anything could be effective with it.

For YEARS we all wanted the Land Speeder Storm and now that we got him, nobody wants to use him?!
Three of them with 5 CCW Scouts and the Troop-Tax for CP becomes a fast and (for the points) punchy Obj-Claimer?

Or do you think, it is too expensive?

Covenant wrote:
For YEARS we all wanted the Land Speeder Storm and now that we got him, nobody wants to use him?!
Three of them with 5 CCW Scouts and the Troop-Tax for CP becomes a fast and (for the points) punchy Obj-Claimer?

Or do you think, it is too expensive?

I plan on doing this for one squad, and will have a tactical squad in a Razorback for my second, with a squad of Bolt Rifle intercessors as my third that are designed to stay stationary in cover and babysit an objective. The scouts will be the long range go-get-it crew, the Razorback will stay semi-close to the Intercessors and support them/go get nearby objectives, and the intercessors will be trying to fling bolt rounds out to 30" away in an effort to help knock a model down here or there while they keep the objective they're on safe.

I may pick up a second scout squad and add it to the first with another Land Speeder Storm. I like the Storm model a lot, and plan on buying one after the first of the year for giggles, as I've got a 5 man CCW & Pistol squad fully painted and ready to go that I REALLY want to zip around in their own speeder transport.. I think it'll be fun.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Covenant wrote:
For YEARS we all wanted the Land Speeder Storm and now that we got him, nobody wants to use him?!
Three of them with 5 CCW Scouts and the Troop-Tax for CP becomes a fast and (for the points) punchy Obj-Claimer?

Or do you think, it is too expensive?

I"m loving it, and even more so the LSStorms counts as land speeders for the Datatelemetry, I'm going to be bringing my Whirldwinds in to support (Especially my whirlwind Hyperios)

Not sure how I want to equip my Land Speeder Storm. May convert an Assault Cannon onto it, that's my first choice, if I'm honest. Volume of shots off-sets hitting on 4+ when moving, or go with a Multimelta and let it hunt tanks and hope the 50/50 hit odds don't screw me too often (Not a very appealing option). I'm also strongly considering keeping it cheap and staying with the standard Heavy Bolter.

So Assault Cannon, or keep it cheap and stick with the Heavy Bolter. Choices, choices.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Loving interceptors as my troop choices this edition, they held up a squad of 12 berzerkers for 2 turns and cut more than half of them down.


Also quick point, noticed the start collecting and death company strike force boxes are "out of stock" online today

p5freak wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Just a small thing, but a Warlord with Artisan of War and a Thunder Hammer packs one heck of a punch with 4 damage. Season with Quickening or your buff of choice.

Quickening only works on the librarian himself. Use a captain on a bike (index version) for higher toughness and wounds (T5, W6). Add a SS, 1CP for black rage. Give him gift of foresight instead of artisan for a 5+ FNP. Use the hammer of baal for WS2+. And as a bonus have a SM psyker who casts might of heroes on him, for S+1, T+1, A+1. Use red rampage for D3 additional attacks. Now you have a nearly unkillable CC beast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just realised that Death Company can have Chainswords and Powers Weapons.

Better than Bolt Pistol/CCW? Assembling my Death Company Strike Force and just about started Death Company.

I think that company veterans are better than DC, because their choice of weapons is so much better. Give them storm bolters and power axes. A 10 model unit can unleash a bullet storm of 40 shots on the enemy, if within 12". With power axes and red thirst they are wounding T4 on 2+. A cheap captain nearby lets them reroll 1s to hit. You can give them SS for better surviveability. They can use two chainswords. Add a sanguinary priest for S+1, and you wound T4 on 2+. Give some of them two inferno pistols, once they are within 3" they can melt even the toughest monsters, daemons, vehicles, etc. Inferno pistols are so much better than any CC weapon. Two of those at 3" can do 12 damage, for 18 pts. Or give them plasmaguns, 10 models have 20 shots at 12". Overcharge with a captain nearby, to reroll 1s. Company veterans are incredible flexible. Index version can use JP.

Not disagreeing about weapon choice but a major pull for DC is that I don't have the Index, nor will I be purchasing it so my Company Veterans won't ever be able to Fly. Maybe you meant Vanguard Veterans? They sem like they can be kitted out pretty well.

Vanguard veterans can’t have stormbolters, so no 40 shot volley.

Covenant wrote:
For YEARS we all wanted the Land Speeder Storm and now that we got him, nobody wants to use him?!
Three of them with 5 CCW Scouts and the Troop-Tax for CP becomes a fast and (for the points) punchy Obj-Claimer?

Or do you think, it is too expensive?

Three problems with it:

1. They are so much more expensive than they were in 7th edition.
2. The changes to how assaulting from vehicles works makes them much less attractive. Ie, you can get a rhino for the same points, but put more dudes in it, and they have better armor/protection than a landspeeder, for virtually the same speed (or at least, enough speed). 15" turn 1 movement (advancing) plus 3" disembark plus 6" move plus 7" charge = 31" threat range which is generally going to be enough to get you clear to the other side of most boards. The LSS gets you another 6" of movement, sure, but that extra movement is largely unnecessary/superflous, and it's less protection and it carries less dudes.
3. The changes to how concealed deployment works makes, in fact, almost any dedicated transport unnecessary for scouts. This is situational, sure, but in 7th edition, you simply COULD NOT charge on 1st turn if you made an infiltrate or scout move. It's risky now, to be 9" away, but that's close enough to get off 1st turn charges (provided you do it right with LOS cover, etc).

Just got my copy of the codex and want to get your thoughts on if you can give relics to models that you are using index wargear for? Im looking at the sanguinary priest here as he cant take a jump pack in the codex but can in the index and there is now the relic jump pack which replaces a models jump pack. Looking at the flow chart on warhammer community this seems to lead to having the option to use the wargear from the index instead of the codex unless the item is in the codex. Can you take from both or is it one or the other therefore no access to relics for models with index wargear?

Jamie Shred wrote:
Just got my copy of the codex and want to get your thoughts on if you can give relics to models that you are using index wargear for? Im looking at the sanguinary priest here as he cant take a jump pack in the codex but can in the index and there is now the relic jump pack which replaces a models jump pack. Looking at the flow chart on warhammer community this seems to lead to having the option to use the wargear from the index instead of the codex unless the item is in the codex. Can you take from both or is it one or the other therefore no access to relics for models with index wargear?

Off the top of my head the only restrictions on relics are:
-that the detachment be homogenous.
-that your warlord be of that faction.
-that the recipient be a non-special character of that faction with no other relic, and that he has the correct gear to replace if needed.
-and that you not be over the limit on number of relics without paying the extra CP cost.

You do get a free relic if your warlord is from the same faction, but your warlord doesnt need to be from the faction to use the relic buying stratagem.

@Xirax

I like it. Looks pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
You do get a free relic if your warlord is from the same faction, but your warlord doesnt need to be from the faction to use the relic buying stratagem.

But the Relic doesn't need to go to your Warlord though correct?

Cheers looks like were all good then.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
@Xirax

I like it. Looks pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
You do get a free relic if your warlord is from the same faction, but your warlord doesnt need to be from the faction to use the relic buying stratagem.

But the Relic doesn't need to go to your Warlord though correct?

If your warlord is not BA you can't give him a BA relic. That relic must go to a BA CHARACTER.

p5freak wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
@Xirax

I like it. Looks pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
You do get a free relic if your warlord is from the same faction, but your warlord doesnt need to be from the faction to use the relic buying stratagem.

But the Relic doesn't need to go to your Warlord though correct?

If your warlord is not BA you can't give him a BA relic. That relic must go to a BA CHARACTER.

I figured, my force is 100% Blood Angels so that shouldn't be an issue. I was just thinking of making my LT the Warlord to get Soulwarden, and giving The Angel's Wing to my Librarian.

Having access to 4 attempts to Deny the Witch (Mephiston, Librarian, LT) seems fantastic. Mephiston's Warlord Trait is alright, but seems a bit unnecessary. I would rather have a backup for Deny the Witch attempts in case one character gets killed.

Banged out a couple of quick lists for fun here. They're 1000 points, for use in a local Escalation League. Tactically they're designed to be take all comers lists.

List 1:


List 2:


Both lists are about equal on capability, one just goes heavier in the HQ section and brings Lemartes for the DC buff. This is using what models I have painted and on-hand.

I'll be giving them a whirl soon. Looking forward to seeing how much damage I can inflict with each unit in turn.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I like the first list, although i'd drop the razor back and Heavy flamer on Libby dread and take Lemartes. That gives you a vanguard detachment giving you a 7th CP, and giving your DC a large boost.

bobafett012 wrote:
I like the first list, although i'd drop the razor back and Heavy flamer on Libby dread and take Lemartes. That gives you a vanguard detachment giving you a 7th CP, and giving your DC a large boost.

I would do that for more of a tournament style list, but at this point in the escalation league we are limited to one detachment for this 1000 point phase. At the 1500 point level a second detachment will open up though, so I'll be going Battalion + Vanguard for the 7th Command Point for sure.

The Razorback is meant to give the Tactical Squad some legs for responding to backfield threats along with the Intercessor Squad.

Appreciate the feedback for sure, also. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Edit: I should have mentioned I was limited to one detachment in the posts with the lists above. Whups! Pardon the derp.

So I was reading over the codex vanguard vets can take Storm Shields.... I was thinking about shields a hammer or 2 n some axes with a razorback or jump packs.

Thoughts about this amazing ability to have a space Marine with a 3++?

 Ishotfirst wrote:
So I was reading over the codex vanguard vets can take Storm Shields.... I was thinking about shields a hammer or 2 n some axes with a razorback or jump packs.

Thoughts about this amazing ability to have a space Marine with a 3++?

I don't personally think much of them, i know there is others that do but frankly, a squad of bolters or other str 4 weaponry will just mow them down anyways, and the synergies among say DC or SG and some of the HQs is too good to pass up for VV.. If I was going to run them, I could see running a larger squad with maybe 2 or 3 SS in the squad to soak those high AP hits, but not a squad full of them.

What synergy do you think they don't benefit from?

They can use Descent of Angels stratagem, benefit from Sanguinor, Cobulo/SPriest, Red Thirst, etc. They can also benefit from a Sang Ancient running the banner of sacrifice, which, I hasten to add, Death Company cannot.

Vanguard Vets are an awesome, viable choice in the new BA codex, more survivable than Death Company thanks to Banner of Sacrifice and/or a Stormshield, and can mulch hordes almost as well thanks dual chainswords, or, if you prefer, chainsword and storm bolter for combined dakka. I imagine most BA Players don't have them and/or won't use them because of all the other specialist jump troops we have historically had avialable (ie, cheap assault squads with better special guns, sang guard and death company), but don't think for a minute that Vanguard Vets can't be tooled for a specifc niche in a BA army.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Ishotfirst wrote:
So I was reading over the codex vanguard vets can take Storm Shields.... I was thinking about shields a hammer or 2 n some axes with a razorback or jump packs.

Thoughts about this amazing ability to have a space Marine with a 3++?

I don't personally think much of them, i know there is others that do but frankly, a squad of bolters or other str 4 weaponry will just mow them down anyways, and the synergies among say DC or SG and some of the HQs is too good to pass up for VV.. If I was going to run them, I could see running a larger squad with maybe 2 or 3 SS in the squad to soak those high AP hits, but not a squad full of them.

I can think of one very good reason to run a squad like this (and it's actually why I'm running a squad like them here, honestly, only I'm using Company Veterans with Jump Packs instead of Vanguard Veterans). Tyranids. Specifically, big bugs that do D6 wounds per hit.

You throw the Storm Shield equipped guys in against these big bugs that will all but negate their power armor, and you punch them with high strength weapons such as power fists and thunder hammers. The veterans with Storm Shields will be able to soak the hits that would decimate the squad and still allow you to be able to put enough damage on target that it should, in theory, be a pale shadow of it's former un-wounded performance.

My current squad is 4 models strong, and the 5th is going to be built at some point shortly. Current theory has all 5 models armed with Storm Shields (though this may change, depending). Two models armed with chainswords, one model armed with a power fist, the Sergeant armed with a power axe, and the last model is still being hammered out as far as his loadout. I'm sorely tempted to make this power axe model that's in progress a standard Veteran marine, and make the last model a Sergeant armed with a Thunder Hammer, and an Inferno Pistol, or keep the Shield wall going across the entire squad and just run 5x Shields.

Regardless, this is the squad you send in against a big threat such as a Dreadnought, or similar model that doesn't do mortal wounds, but could feasibly kill off a valuable character or rip a vehicle to pieces in one round of combat. The 3++ shields give the squad remarkable staying power against the relatively small number of big/hard hits that would wipe a normal squad out mostly, if not completely.

I'd consider running a 10 man Vanguard Veteran Squad with Chainswords and Storm Shields on at least 4 of them, one Storm Shield and Power fist, a sergeant with a Thunder Hammer (3 attacks at 3 damage per hit) and whatever ranged weapon you want (Inferno Pistol), and 4 with a mix of power swords and power axes (2 and 2) with perhaps one Inferno pistol on each pair. Let them roll up into something with a Captain leading the way with the Angel's Wing to prevent overwatch.

Small arms will still be their bane, but hopefully you can chew through a couple of hard targets and soak enough damage that they allow the rest of your assault element to do what needs to be done.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Covenant wrote:
For YEARS we all wanted the Land Speeder Storm and now that we got him, nobody wants to use him?!
Three of them with 5 CCW Scouts and the Troop-Tax for CP becomes a fast and (for the points) punchy Obj-Claimer?

Or do you think, it is too expensive?

Unfortunately the game has changed many editions since then. Scouts aren't punchy and bolters are simply better than CCW is one of the main issues with that strat in 8th. Honestly I don't see any purpose to a land speeder storm anymore, might as well use a razorback.

Rocmistro wrote:
What synergy do you think they don't benefit from?

They can use Descent of Angels stratagem, benefit from Sanguinor, Cobulo/SPriest, Red Thirst, etc. They can also benefit from a Sang Ancient running the banner of sacrifice, which, I hasten to add, Death Company cannot.

Vanguard Vets are an awesome, viable choice in the new BA codex, more survivable than Death Company thanks to Banner of Sacrifice and/or a Stormshield, and can mulch hordes almost as well thanks dual chainswords, or, if you prefer, chainsword and storm bolter for combined dakka. I imagine most BA Players don't have them and/or won't use them because of all the other specialist jump troops we have historically had avialable (ie, cheap assault squads with better special guns, sang guard and death company), but don't think for a minute that Vanguard Vets can't be tooled for a specifc niche in a BA army.

First off, no where did I say they weren't viable, I just said "I" don't think much of them. Anything I need done, my DC and SG can handle just fine and both can be outfitted in all kinds of ways from their CC weapons to their ranged weapons. Yes, VV can utilize most synergies because they are JP troops, but things VV don't benefit from are forlorn fury, Re-rolls from lemartes, both of which I think are quite big. SG get a double buff when near the Sanguinor (as your warlord), +1 attack, and get to re-roll hits, they can't utilize Astorath's morale immunity.

I just don't see dumping a bunch of points in survivability of 1 wound models, i'd just rather have more models. I'd rather have the banner following The Sanguinor, and SG since they have 2 wounds, stray bolter shots don't just remove SG models.

VV aren't bad, but we already have so many of the same type of units and in similar if not the same roles as it is, so i'd rather just use the more iconic units over them.

VV vets are great because of their gear options and how their price point falls inbetween DC and SG. The access to SS is super useful, imo. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I use a squad of 8 with 5 storm shields and I really like it.

In my opinion it is Death Company > Vanguard Veterans > Sanguinary Guard > Assault Squad.

I would choose Vanguard Veterans over Sanguinary Guard almost every time. Sanguinary Guard aren't bad, but their 2 wounds aren't that useful against a lot of weapons and you don't want to pay at least 35 points for each model in the unit. Death Company and Vanguard Veterans are much more flexible and durable (per point).