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 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Simple electric car requires about 1000Ah. Usual batteries will die fast. LiFePo batteries of that A*h will cost ~9000 dollars. It's the price of normal car. A car, that can get 500km or even more with additional fuel. What about electric? 150km or so
But. Elcetric usable on bikes or mopeds. Plug anywhere, even in your room. You drive in the center of city, you don't need to go for gas station

Electric bikes are increasingly popular in Japan and the Netherlands. I'm seeing more of them in the UK too. The main thing holding them back is cost, and the unfriendliness of UK roads for cyclists.

Whats unfriendly about your roads?

Whenever I see photos of british streets they look like they have a lot, and I mean a lot, of concessions towards cyclists. At least relative to the US.

Sad to say, the usual concession to cyclists in the UK are that the local council paints a white line down the edge of the road, with a silhoutte of a bike in it, and that's job done. You're expected to crunch through the debris, ironwork and increased camber in the gutter.

That may be friendlier than the US, but a lot of our roads are much narrower than yours, and our population density is higher.

It's a bit better in some places. We don't have the bike first urban culture of the Netehrelands, though.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.

KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.

I have driven most electric cars in the market, Teslas included and I can't agree with you there.

As far as charging infrastructure, the good thing about everyone else but Tesla moving to a common standard is that you will have a wide choice of places to charge your car. There's something like 15 CCS chargers for each Supercharger in Europe (which, btw have been required by law to have CCS plugs so any car can charge at a supercharger station as well), Ionity network of fast chargers is already bigger than Tesla supercharger network in Europe.

Electrify America (VW-funded) is investing billions in CCS and ChaDeMo chargers in the US and with Tesla pinching pennies right now they will lose the network advantage soon.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Sad to say, the usual concession to cyclists in the UK are that the local council paints a white line down the edge of the road, with a silhoutte of a bike in it, and that's job done. You're expected to crunch through the debris, ironwork and increased camber in the gutter.

Or it stops for a tree:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.777871,-1.2704816,3a,75y,277.89h,79.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8JB3W3r-F7hluop8uMadgQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Or is the length of a bike:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7788028,-1.2713678,3a,75y,273.4h,72.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ4LgOfEOJMrT0hiw9rIWtQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Or narrows to narrower than a bike:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7844821,-1.2687761,3a,75y,352.33h,73.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTa9zebIXrEtOzopRCGRCXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Or how about a shared use space that requires you to cross a busy road and has no real way of exiting:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7530414,-1.2674655,3a,79.6y,261.56h,92.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1szTJ4-jTc3i4AyMrczwueEw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DzTJ4-jTc3i4AyMrczwueEw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D14.323837%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Cycling infrastructure in the UK is poorly thought out and generally, as KK says, consists of a white line, a bicycle shape and that's it, another 20 meters of "cycling infrastructure" for the council to boast about, without any thought of it actually being useful, or even within Department for Transport guidelines.

Yes, riding in Oxford I travel the NCR 5 every day. It's the cycle equivalent of the M6 motorway.

There a place where in 50 yards you have to negotiate 6 tight turns of 90 to 120 degrees, while crossing a major road and two minor roads.

There's another place where bike parking bars have been put in the middle of the bike lane. They are miles away from any useful facilities, so there are never any bikes parked there.

There's another place where the cycle lane crosses a pedestrian precinct. All the cycle lane markings were removed during building work and haven't been replaced, so it's very hard for pedestrians to understand they are in the cycle lane.

Oxford is noted as a bike friendly city, partly because it's a car unfriendly city.

I used to do work for the university of penn police dept .. they had bike lanes on the sides of all of the streets, and the cops were always giving tickets to cars driving in the lanes like they weren't even there. It was almost like their main source of income.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Tesla isn't the only firm making electric cars.

Shhhhhhhhhhh, don't derail an entertaining conspiracy theory.

KillKrazy, they might as well be, the competition is so far behind. Teslas perform so much better on so many levels, yeah they are not perfect, but they are better. Also they have invested in the charging infrastructure, which without, yeah EVS are really useless as your only automobile. There is a lot of talk about Tesla competition coming soon, but without a solid charging network, I dont see then as anything but second cars.

I have driven most electric cars in the market, Teslas included and I can't agree with you there.

As far as charging infrastructure, the good thing about everyone else but Tesla moving to a common standard is that you will have a wide choice of places to charge your car. There's something like 15 CCS chargers for each Supercharger in Europe (which, btw have been required by law to have CCS plugs so any car can charge at a supercharger station as well), Ionity network of fast chargers is already bigger than Tesla supercharger network in Europe.

Electrify America (VW-funded) is investing billions in CCS and ChaDeMo chargers in the US and with Tesla pinching pennies right now they will lose the network advantage soon.

Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.

Hydrogen batteries or using hydrogen instead of gas?

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Hydrogen batteries or using hydrogen instead of gas?

Didn't we cover that earlier in the thread?

Long and short: There is only a tiny amount of infrastructure to support it. Electricity is nearly everywhere, even if the superchargers to do a fast charge are not.

There is only a tiny amount of infrastructure to support it

What's the problem adding it to gas stations? I think, it only because hydrogen cars are not produced (almost).
I missed posts here. Question - why they constructiong hydrogen batteries istead of just burning it in engine as a fuel?

Electricity is nearly everywhere,

Yeah. Europe for example can convert to electric cars easily. But similarty, they can convert to hydrogen too.
But I can't imagine electric cars in my region. 300-500km trips with nothing but trees. And -50 C sometimes. Electric bike inside city is nice, tough (in summer). Many people who don't have garages, use cars only in summer. And many drive cars only inside the city. I think, it's not rational, especially if you drive alone and dont carry things.

Hydrogen tanks, and compressed hydrogen, are very expensive and dangerous. That would be another level of danger and safety procedures for a gas station to have, for something that very few people would use.

Aren't Hydrogen cars mostly EVs also though? I was watching a youtube video for a new Hyundai I think, and it had an electric motor and I think they were saying that it uses hydrogen to charge the batteries to run the motor, or something like that.

That makes the best sense.

A hydrogen car can run the fuel in a fuel cell to generate electricity directly with almost no moving parts. The electricity is stored in a battery to run the car's electric motors. The exhaust is simply water. Several companies already have cars like this in limited production.

It takes a lot of energy to make batteries, so smaller batteries compared to EVs are a good thing over the life cycle of the vehicle.

Hydrogen has two disadvantages at the moment. One is that it's a relatively new technology, so it's got a way to go to rival ICE cars or EVs. The other is that there is very limited hydrogen refueeling infrastructure.

On the plus side, hydrogen can be produced anywhere you have water and electricity. It doesn't have to be pumped out of a well, transported thousands of miles and refined and all that sort of thing. If you've got an electricity grid and a water grid, you've got the basic infrastructure you need to plumb in a hydrogen production facility.

Another plus is that it's a lot quicker to refuel a hydrogen car than to charge an electric car.

In some ways hydrogen hybrid vehicles are the best of both worlds.

The two issues with hydrogen are:

1) It is expensive to make. At the moment it is far worse for the environment than petrol. This could all be changed either by new, less energy intense ways of making hydrogen, or by getting fusion up and running.

2) It keeps floating away. It is a bugger to store and will leak through almost anything. Graphene seems to offer hope, but like fusion, it seems just out of reach at the moment.

Both of these are engineering problems that are waiting to be fixed. Once we can fix them, then hydrogen will take off. Until then it will not work.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.

Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.

Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.

Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.

Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.

The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.

jouso wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

Well, this is not the case in most of the US. Trying to find a charger for other cars is pretty difficult. Im not sure which EVs your driving, most of them feel like runners up to me. Nissan Leaf, Chevy bolt, that BMW......they all pail in comparison. Right now Tesla has the performance, battery and charging edge on everybody.

Performance is something I don't expect of an electric car. Electric cars are supposed to be saving the planet, not hurl yourself fast, and in any case performance in many ways is a compromise wrt to reliability. I'm pretty sure Tesla dismal reliability comes from trying to push the performance/range envelope too hard.

Range yes, though I'm not sure Tesla has any advantage there. Battery size to range for, say, the Kona or Leaf compared to the M3 give pretty similar results.

Charging edge, if you're talking about the supercharger network that's true of the US. Certainly not here. And the traditional performance brands are clearly prioritising charging speeds over range (which is also a compromise, you take one at the expense of the other), the eTron, Taycan, etc. will charge faster than a Tesla but will trade that for smaller range all other things being equal.

Software and gimmicks. As said before, Tesla is incredibly buggy and glitchy. It really feels you're betatesting which I assume is ok with some people but I would definitely feel robbed if I spent 60K+ on a car which doesn't really work out of the can.

The most important thing for a daily driver is that it works. From what I've seen, Tesla isn't there yet.

Maybe to you electric cars should be econo boxes....but the masses don't want that. Sales figures show it. If you want to replace ICE cars you have to offer something better. Reliability issues with Teslas are so overblown its ridiculous. They are almost as overstated as their ability to catch fire....which is actually pretty rare compared to an ICE car. You may have certain things you are looking for, but the public wants cars that are better than their ICE cars. Not to mention other companies econoboxes cost about the same as a model 3. Why would I buy a Chevy volt or Nissan Leaf with worse performance and no charging network for the same price I can get a Tesla? These cars are not even in the same league.

As far as charging speeds...you are out of date, Teslas new V3 charger (that is currently up and running) will charge just as fast or faster than what Porshe says they will be putting in......when they get around to it.

Teslas are far more efficient than their competitors also getting more miles per KWH than other EVS in the same class. Their battery and motor technology is not only superior but also about 20% cheaper than the competition. You can look it up easily.https://electrek.co/2019/02/21/tesla-efficiency-range-test-audi-e-tron-jaguar-i-pace/

Teslas reliability issues arent even reliability issues, for the most part they have been fit and finish issues, which have been pretty much resolved. We are talking misaligned panels and inconsistent panel gaps, not cars that are breaking down or leaving people on the side of the road. If Teslas dont work, how is it that the model 3 just set the record for reaching 1 billion miles in record time. More Tesla model 3s were sold last year than almost all other EVs combined GLOBALY.

https://electrek.co/2019/03/25/tesla-model-3-drivers-1-billion-miles/

Jesus dude, did you drive a BMW in a previous life?

Tesla have a got a lot of work to do regarding affordability before they are anything like a credible alternative, at least here in the UK anyway. The cheapest car available on the Tesla UK website right now is £71k.

 filbert wrote:
Tesla have a got a lot of work to do regarding affordability before they are anything like a credible alternative, at least here in the UK anyway. The cheapest car available on the Tesla UK website right now is £71k.

Ok, but what version is it? How, much is a liter of petrol over there now?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Jesus dude, did you drive a BMW in a previous life?

Nope...why do you ask.

it's a Model S and a litre of petrol in the UK is about £1.30 or so.

 filbert wrote:
it's a Model S and a litre of petrol in the UK is about £1.30 or so.

Well, Yes. The model S is their top of the line car. The base model 3 is $35K, so pretty affordable especially considering you are paying 1.30 a litre. The first container ships hit China and Europe about 2 weeks ago....all pre orders. Not sure when the 3 will be available for general purchase in Europe, but its coming.

If they aren't available, then they aren't affordable...

 filbert wrote:
If they aren't available, then they aren't affordable...

Supply and demand my friend, people want the good gak, if you had pre ordered one you might be driving it right now, until then you have to wait in line like everyone else.

Econo boxes are a good start for electric cars because a lot of people want a relatively small vehicle which is cheap to run for daily commuting and short trips in urban environments, and the current technology easily supports this type of car.

More varied types are coming. The Tesla is clearly the best saloon type at the moment, and Jaguar is leading the pack with its I-Pace SUV.

If you want a hybrid, you are spoiled for choice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Econo boxes are a good start for electric cars because a lot of people want a relatively small vehicle which is cheap to run for daily commuting and short trips in urban environments, and the current technology easily supports this type of car.

More varied types are coming. The Tesla is clearly the best saloon type at the moment, and Jaguar is leading the pack with its I-Pace SUV.

If you want a hybrid, you are spoiled for choice.

Maybe in Europe, in the US econobox EVS have struggled horribly. Again the model 3 has sold more units then almost all other EVs combined globally. It shows what people really want.

Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.

 Vulcan wrote:
Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.

I would agree with you to a point. The US is not Europe, we are a giant country with a great highway system and crappy public transport. Try being in a smart car on the freeway when an semi is doing 85 next to you...its a harrowing experience. The shift to everyone driving big stupid SUVs even if they are EVS makes no sense to me.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.

I would agree with you to a point. The US is not Europe, we are a giant country with a great highway system and crappy public transport. Try being in a smart car on the freeway when an semi is doing 85 next to you...its a harrowing experience. The shift to everyone driving big stupid SUVs even if they are EVS makes no sense to me.

I'll grant you the point about the smart car, but my little Civic handles the slipstream from a semi just fine. You don't need a three-ton metal monster for that.

 Vulcan wrote:
Given that many people drive enormous gas-hog off-road trucks and SUV's as their commuter car... I'd say what they want is rarely what they actually need.

My F350 diesel dual rear wheel long bed crew cab 4wd is a need not a want. I have horses (and other animals). They need to be trailered to go riding. I need to pick up large numbers of hay bales and get them home. With my flat trailer I can haul about 120 bales in one go. It also hauls a pallet of metal t-posts or a pallet of bags of quickcrete in the bed. Tows dozens of 6 inch by 8ft treated fence posts and several rolls of no-climb fence. And other stuff. I'm often on dirt or no roads on my property to drop off materials for a project or when getting to where we'll be riding.

It will be a while before an electric truck can replace what I use my truck for.


And I have an Audi Q7 (also diesel) as my 'go to work' vehicle when not on my bike. It hauls 10-12 50-pound bags of feed in the back so I don't use the less fuel economic truck just to get feed. It gets decent milage for my daily commute, but frankly is used for much more than that (such as picking up feed).

Judging what people 'need' vice 'want' with out knowing what they actually need is a bit silly.

Just depends on what ya need. It'll be a long while before EVs are going to replace big trucks. Although I think I read Ford has an EV F150 coming out next year. Will be interesting to see how that goes.

I wish EVs weren't so pricey, I bet they could make them more affordable if they wanted to, without making them suck. But even though they have a higher cost to buy I think with the amount of miles I drive daily, it will be a money saver in the long run. I think what I like best about Tesla is their supercharger network, but I'm just not sure the Model 3 is for me since I'm more of a SUV guy. Don't want to wait 2 years for the model Y. But I'll give it a test drive in a few weeks and see