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the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

macluvin wrote:
As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.

In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.

"Here, play this miserably balanced, broken, beta test version instead for the next year while we slooooooooooooooowly extract all the value out of you we can by selling 40$ hardback books. Nobody playtested the version YOURE going to be playing, hahahahahaahahahahaha, what?"

or just don't play against any army with a codex when you have an index.

MaxT wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

macluvin wrote:
As long as Xenos gets a similar overhaul... This could be a really really good thing depending on how it turns out. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll have an accurate gauge of how good this edition is without either several more codices after space marines, unless they have some way like indices to rope the rest of the factions along for the update.

In one of the lead up articles about rules to 9th, they explicitly stated all 9th edition armies were tested together, implying that the codexes are already written. They just need to be printed and put into some type of release schedule. I expect we will know more come the end of September, early Orktober.

That does not imply that at all. It means all armies were playtested with 9th core rules. It doesn't mean they've also written and playtested every rule that will be released for the next 3 to 4 years.

Agreed. Nothing about putting all the armies on tables during playtesting even vaguely suggests that all future codexes are already written.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd love HH to go all plastic, but honestly I'd just be satisfied with plastic Mk.II Marines.

You spelled Mk5 wrong but that's okay.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You spelled Mk5 wrong but that's okay.

+1
I would be all over a nice version of Heresy armor, as long as it looked like the FW version and not like an awkward version of standard Marine armor. Not positive about the casting capabilities, but assuming equivalent fidelity I think that the difference of 5 vs. 6 is more interesting that that between 1 and 2

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You spelled Mk5 wrong but that's okay.

+1
I would be all over a nice version of Heresy armor, as long as it looked like the FW version and not like an awkward version of standard Marine armor. Not positive about the casting capabilities, but assuming equivalent fidelity I think that the difference of 5 vs. 6 is more interesting that that between 1 and 2

FWIW, the plastic Mk3 and 4 look good in plastic and are easy to work with AND don't have anything off proportion overall to the FW offerings.

I thought the 4 came out great; I prefer the 3 FW to the plastics... something was lost in the translation, due to proportions or how undercuts work or something, on at least some of the parts.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny the oldmarines will be squatted crowd's predictions keep getting squashed though.

Nah. Getting rid of the First Born product line is a long term project. You can't just do it in an edition.

As I said when this was first announced, the lines between First Born and Primaris will blurr with this latest change. And then maybe with the next Marine Codex, or perhaps even the one after that (into 10th Ed by that stage, no doubt), they can talk about how it's time to "rationalise" the Space Marine line, because there are so many "redundant choices" that are just "confusing to new players", so now they will "retire" the older kits.

Or, two years down the line, they could release firstborn marines in the same proportions as the new chaos marines, so they look fairly normal next to primaris. And then never stop selling either of the types of marine because why would you?

Isn't that what the gashapon marine blind boxes were? I would not be surprised if those were an Option B for the marine reboot but they opted for the more drastic Option A primaris.

How about the classic "why not both?"
They considered A and B, and they went with A.
Time passes, some people like A, some people grow to like it, some people just still don't like primaris.
Make something for those who love their intercessors but hate how puny their old marines look next to them (like one might perceive a scrawny Rogue Trader marine next to a 4th to 7th edition marine), and those who just want their old marines to stand up to the intercessor proportions.
Bam, new regularis marines. Now anyone who wants to use a blend of Primaris and old marines has the opportunity to buy 3 more devastator boxes, 6 more tactical boxes, and 3 more assault boxes!
And I guess tactical squads cost $60 now somehow? So they will cost at least that much.

Assault hellblasters go to assault 3, heavy versions are 2 damage base.

So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.

Hey I don't play 40K so can someone tell me if this makes Hellblasters good or not? I had heard that they are a sub-par choice and I thought this was a shame (didn't really matter to me, I still bought them because I like the look but, much like Reivers, for some bizarre reason I kind of want them to be half decent for gamers )

I like Helblasters, but to be honest I stopped caring about totally optimized lists years ago. I'm more concerned about smiling and having a good time with a friend than curbstomping people any more.

I wouldn't say that they are bad by any means, but the new stuff might be more optimal.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.

I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.

I mean not really? No one was taking Hellblasters anymore. They at least have a more interesting variety now. If heavy is D3 it is still single shot.

Yes, really. I was commenting on the fact that we are continuing to see improvements in the amount of damage currently existing weapons can put out, not on whether or not Hellblasters are considered "good" compared to the myriad of strong options already available to loyalists.

And, as always, it needs to be said: Just because something isn't considered good compared to the other units in the strongest, most bloated codex in the game, doesn't mean it wouldn't be considered good in any other faction. AP-4 is a big deal, it renders any 3+ save moot without an invul, and when in the respective doctrine for the corresponding weapon it goes up to AP-5, which does the same to anything with a 2+ save lacking an invul. In any other codex that would be considered good, the fact that it's considered "meh" for loyalists speaks volumes about how many good options they have.

There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.

The arguement could be made for the Assault Version as Raven Guard as you're firing at full effect and enjoying your defensive bonus from 24" away, but that was honestly the only time. Even the Heavy one was bad as Imperial Fists with the extra damage towards vehicles! That was a flat D3 too with no randumb!
Basically they went the route they did with Intercessors in terms of weapon roles and that was a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also do we have ANY info on Sternguard or nah?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.

agreed, now at least for people who want to use hellblasters it's actually a CHOICE as to what gun they wanna use

I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.

 AduroT wrote:
I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.

keep in mind the obvious heavy infantry here, marines, are going up to 2 wounds each, it'll be solid no doubt there but it's certainly not autotake. IMHO each of the guns now has a place depending on planned role.

Whilst I think GW making Hellblasters 8 PL in the latest update was beyond stupid, I do appreciate that they're trying to make the alternate weapon choices actually a choice.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There really wasn't a reason to take anything but the rapid fire variant. The loss of strength and range killed the assault variant. Extra shots helps it significantly. The extra damage on the Heavy version actually makes it a contender now. It was overshadowed by the Eliminator Las Fusils before (which could deploy forward and get better accuracy). So overall, these changes were needed.

The arguement could be made for the Assault Version as Raven Guard as you're firing at full effect and enjoying your defensive bonus from 24" away, but that was honestly the only time. Even the Heavy one was bad as Imperial Fists with the extra damage towards vehicles! That was a flat D3 too with no randumb!
Basically they went the route they did with Intercessors in terms of weapon roles and that was a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also do we have ANY info on Sternguard or nah?

I agree. I wonder if they will do the same for Bolt Carbines (though there are actually four variations of those, not three). Definitely liking the idea of D4 vs vehicles with my Crimson Fists. I am not sure I will add Hellblasters back into my list, but if I do, they will be the Heavy variant.

And no, absolutely no info on Sternguard, which burns my keister because Sternguard are my favorite unit in the game (though Bladeguard are working at toppling that because of their similar aesthetic). Hopefully we will see them soon.

bolt carbines def could use a tweek. the only unit that uses bolt carbines are reivers and the space wolf Lt yeah?

The Bolt variants only needed tweaks because of marines super rules and having RF on 30". The carbine already got 3 shots and the heavy variant D2

+1 for agreeing they have to make the alternate weapons at least vaguely interesting.
Admittedly it may produce problems - but when people are only taking one variant for years, you know its an issue.

For Hellblasters anyway. Intercessors were already there.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So gw continues to pump up the games killing factor. I wonder if they'll jack up the damage for the heavy guns overcharge mode or just stick with more strength. At least they aren't giving primaris 3W.

Honestly, I'm not too fussed about this one. Hellblasters always seemed super glass cannon for their point cost and the other two weapon options were juuuuust pointless.

Dreadnought/Helbrute Plasma Cannons, Heavy Plasma Incinerators, whatever kind of plasma cannons get mounted on Leman Russ tanks, all going to D2 base is fine with me.

Also worth noting that even if every weapon were to increase in damage by 20%, which generally speaking they're not, if marine armies shrink in size by 20% it's the same difference.

or if they drastically nerf doctrines.

Something like:

Devastator, all heavy weapons reroll 1s to hit if the firer didn't move
Tactical, models with Rapid Fire weapons can still shoot if their unit performed an Advance move in the movement phase
Assault, same as now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 0XFallen wrote:
The Bolt variants only needed tweaks because of marines super rules and having RF on 30". The carbine already got 3 shots and the heavy variant D2

Yeah they could be done with "Static Gunline Marines" and I'd be OK with that. Itd be fun if the most common army in the game could move more than Guard/Tau opponents move again.

 0XFallen wrote:
The Bolt variants only needed tweaks because of marines super rules and having RF on 30". The carbine already got 3 shots and the heavy variant D2

no that;'s the autobolt rifle. the carbine is a differant weapon entirely and is used by reiver's it's still assault 2 for some reason

3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.

 AduroT wrote:
I would actually rate the Assault version the best now I think. That’s a good number of shots at decent range with really nice AP for cracking open heavier infantry.

I'm not so sure about that. If you overcharge for that sweet 2D, that's 3 chances to kill yourself with each dude. It's the same reason plasma Kataphron Destroyers are always "almost" good but never actually good--with so many shots, overcharging is literally suicide for a pretty expensive model, and the real value is in overcharging.

Not Online!!! wrote:
3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.

At least you still have it. Skitarii lost their 3 shot plasma caliver.

Not Online!!! wrote:
3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.

Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
3 shot tau plasma gun?
Why yes, water down the faction identity more.

Space Marines manage to have a distinct identity from SOBs and they share the same bloody weapons.
if a factions entire identity is based around a single gun, that faction should proably be squatted.

The faction identity of sm got flanderized was the meaning.

Because atm it went from Generalist shocktroops to everything you have but +1 if we are talking primaris.