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Voss wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.

Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.

So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.

That seems like an excessively harsh interpretation of ''he said he said' that they decided to introduce them gradually.'

They made models just to make models.

There was no place for the models without lore issues.

And so, they caused a huge lore mess that’s caused years of issues, including but not limited to the “Space marines are being squatted” conspiracy theory.

I actually think it's a good thing that they're doing this, and based on some of the xenos changes we've seen, maybe they'll finally update the statlines of the aspect warriors that have had the same profile since 4th!

Ah. I've apparently missed out on whatever the 'lore mess' is.
The primaris lore seemed rather straightforward to me.

The conspiracy theory has been fun though, especially as it now has to cope with the new reality. The new contortions should be even more hilarious.


But yes, the model company did in fact make models to make (and sell) models. Shocking, that.

I think this is an interesting move to homogenize primaris and “first born”. Make a new heavy weapon sprue and jump pack sprue that fit primaris and build better (or at least more proportional, given better is more of a personal aesthetic assessment) tac/devastator/assault squads. Goes on from there. Means folks can end up using more unit options they might not otherwise want to if they wanted pure primaris or pure “firstborn”.

Feels good to have been right about this, even if that thread got locked

I like that they are moving to the 2w standard for marines. It opens up a LOT more granularity in both points and weapons.

If something is supposed to kill marines ?D2. If it is more anti infantry? D1.

Marines will still feel like marines while a lot of weapons still kill 1w infantry the same.

Voss wrote:
Ah. I've apparently missed out on whatever the 'lore mess' is.
The primaris lore seemed rather straightforward to me.

The conspiracy theory has been fun though, especially as it now has to cope with the new reality. The new contortions should be even more hilarious.


But yes, the model company did in fact make models to make (and sell) models. Shocking, that.

The initial lore for Primaris marines was poorly written and shoehorned into the setting very badly. More recent lore irons out a lot of the early rubbish but people don't forget what that did to the setting.

 Super Ready wrote:
Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan.

Are you kidding? This is phase 2.

The line between First Born and Primaris blurs. Then, maybe a year or even two years from now, GW does a "rationalisation" of the Marine line, and decides that there are just so many kits they need to retire a bunch of them as to not be confusing to new players. And thus all the First Born Marines (probably not Terminators) go out of production, and "Primaris" Marines are now just regular Marines, no special distinction required.

Removing the ultimate legacy item from the game was never going to be a short-term project. This is just another step.

ERJAK wrote:
They're buffing literally the only profiles we use. It's not like marines where it's like 'huh, melta might be better than plasma now' it's like 'the only thing we had is MASSIVELY superior all of a sudden!'

And the change to the melta damage synergize very well with our act of faith rule, that marines don't get, too!
We can turn a melta wounding into guaranteed 8 damages! Melta still can't one-shot most vehicle, like before 8th, but it's coming closer and closer.

 Albertorius wrote:
So... now flamers are the same range as shuricats. That's great and not indicative at all that shuricats need different range bands, no siree.

I don't play Eldars, I never played Eldars, and I don't intended to ever play Eldars. But my reaction to their announcement on their official social network was "Great I hope you buff the hell out of Eldars, esp. aspect warriors"

Voss wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So what was the point of Primaris? Besides hundreds of shiny new models obviously.

Jes Goodwin said in the first Voxcast that he did that Primaris were a range revamp. But because they couldn't update the whole range at once they made them a new unit and factored that into the fluff.

So he just straight up admitted to making a clunky mess of things? Wow.

That seems like an excessively harsh interpretation of ''he said he said' that they decided to introduce them gradually.'

I've misremembered which one it was in. The first one does talk about the marine redesign, but trying to track the one where they talk about resetting the scale. Thought it was that one, but might be the admech one?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Intriguing... this kinda puts the brakes on the whole "phase out oldmarines" plan.

Are you kidding? This is phase 2.

The line between First Born and Primaris blurs. Then, maybe a year or even two years from now, GW does a "rationalisation" of the Marine line, and decides that there are just so many kits they need to retire a bunch of them as to not be confusing to new players. And thus all the First Born Marines (probably not Terminators) go out of production, and "Primaris" Marines are now just regular Marines, no special distinction required.

Removing the ultimate legacy item from the game was never going to be a short-term project. This is just another step.

Bingo. My thoughts too. Not that I overly mind tbh, I don't mind Primaris in a fluff sense or a model sense considering they're still relatively new but I think the strategy is clear. Harmonise using 'positive' changes - so bring the less powerful models up (rather than bringing Primaris down or leaving the status quo as it is) and keep doing this until the two become indistinguishable or too similar that there's a reason to dump one. It won't be Primaris.

So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Semper wrote:
Bingo. My thoughts too. Not that I overly mind tbh, I don't mind Primaris in a fluff sense or a model sense considering they're still relatively new but I think the strategy is clear. Harmonise using 'positive' changes - so bring the less powerful models up (rather than bringing Primaris down or leaving the status quo as it is) and keep doing this until the two become indistinguishable or too similar that there's a reason to dump one. It won't be Primaris.

It's not that complex.

You thought they just kept throwing 'Rubicon' around because it was a spectacularly cool component of the lore?

You really thought that after 5 years of no 'standard' Space Marines, and nothing but Primaris- and multiple 'standard' marine equipment options being given to Primaris Marines...

...you honestly thought they were going to keep the standard space marines around?

Nah- they're gone, man. They were gone a long time ago- but fortunately, they're no more or less valid of a model than the new ones, so now all the people who love their old marines can still use them.

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

To look cool, I suppose. I mean, I had a few "firstborn" Space Wolves before Primaris were announced, but it's only the Primaris models which had me buy an entire army. They just look better - not necessarily where it comes to aesthetics, but the proportions are so much better - especially the upper legs look kinda ridiculous on all old marine models now, I think.

I’m just trying to imagine how annoying it’s going to be for CSM players during the several months to a year between the Space Marine and CSM codex releases.
Or, for that matter, the time period between the stat change on marine heavy bolsters and when everyone else’s heavy bolsters catch up. (Likewise any of the other announced weapon changes...)

 Insane Ivan wrote:
the Primaris models ... just look better

This. The last time I had Marines as a main army they were mostly metal (!), but I jumped on the Conquest bandwagon and the difference between the rank and file is like night and day. The older guys look ... off, in comparison. It doesn't seem to hit as much on the more blinged-out characters, but you're not going to have an army of those guys, are you?

While news is news and all, whoever wrote that article is genius.
The wording (including the little quotes) is great.

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.

Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.

 Leth wrote:
I like that they are moving to the 2w standard for marines. It opens up a LOT more granularity in both points and weapons.

If something is supposed to kill marines ?D2. If it is more anti infantry? D1.

Marines will still feel like marines while a lot of weapons still kill 1w infantry the same.

This is kinda what i said in the other thread. I don't think is buff is going to be limited to marines. I think all elite infantry is going to get a buff and a pts hike. It creates this space at the 0-15ish point range for light infantry to actually have the pts range to have some nuance and better representation. At the minute you have this clogged up pts range where you get marines at 15pts and it trickles down from there where light infantry get pointed either so they either are more worth it than their weight in marines or they are worthless and other weirdness like their difference to other light inf.

Now its like marines and other elite units are going to be a bit more to light infantry that vehicles are currently to them.

if that makes sense

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

It's the same with Sisters and you don't see people complaining that the new tall Sisters and the old short Sisters share the exact same profile!

 MinscS2 wrote:

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.

Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.

Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.

Voss wrote:
Ah. I've apparently missed out on whatever the 'lore mess' is.
The primaris lore seemed rather straightforward to me.

The conspiracy theory has been fun though, especially as it now has to cope with the new reality. The new contortions should be even more hilarious.


But yes, the model company did in fact make models to make (and sell) models. Shocking, that.

Speaking of contortions - if the objective is making and selling models and oldmarines aren't going anywhere, where's their Chaos-scale new miniatures?

GW can Legends 2w oldmarines just as easily as they can Legends 1w oldmarines, new rules cost them nothing.

DanielFM wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.

Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.

Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.

Irrelevant to YOUR game but totally relevant to GW profitability plan and the majority of people who buy their miniatures for aesthetic purposes first and game later...

 Latro_ wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I like that they are moving to the 2w standard for marines. It opens up a LOT more granularity in both points and weapons.

If something is supposed to kill marines ?D2. If it is more anti infantry? D1.

Marines will still feel like marines while a lot of weapons still kill 1w infantry the same.

This is kinda what i said in the other thread. I don't think is buff is going to be limited to marines. I think all elite infantry is going to get a buff and a pts hike. It creates this space at the 0-15ish point range for light infantry to actually have the pts range to have some nuance and better representation. At the minute you have this clogged up pts range where you get marines at 15pts and it trickles down from there where light infantry get pointed either so they either are more worth it than their weight in marines or they are worthless and other weirdness like their difference to other light inf.

Now its like marines and other elite units are going to be a bit more to light infantry that vehicles are currently to them.

if that makes sense

Not sure how making light infantry paperweigh helps though. There's not enough room point wise for light infantry to be anything but slt at objective. Ork boy? Don't bother to use to try to kill stuff. If you don't have d2 weapons you just are irrelevant damage output wise.

A horrible thought did just occur to me, actually. I know it's not how it's actually going to happen, especially since 3W Termies are already confirmed, but...

ALL FULLY-FLEDGED SPACE MARINES WILL BE GETTING 2 WOUNDS!

...Marneus Calgar with 2 Wounds, anyone? Or perhaps Mephiston? How about Dreadnoughts? They're still fully-fledged Space Marines, after all.

DanielFM wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.

Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.

Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.

So because stalker bolters deal the same damage as a tac unit with a heavy bolter which apparently is better at identical points? What?

Except as the Tactical Marines suffer casualties, their performance drops off faster than the Intercessors.

DanielFM wrote:

1) Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
2) +1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
3) Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.

1) For you perhaps. Many players care about how their model's look however.
2) Yes, absolutely. +1 A is irrelevant on a WS3+ S4 unit also including a sergeant with a Thunderhammer.
3) This comparison is so skewed that I along with the above points almost think you're trolling me.

Dudeface wrote:

DanielFM wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

Better looking models, +1 A, better weapons.

Primaris and Firstborn will be merged at one point probably, which is better than Firstborn getting outright squatted.

Better looking models: irrelevant for the game
+1 attack: Irrelevant for shooty units
Better weapons: Five Tac Marines with a heavy Bolter are the same points as 5 Intercessors. With the best anti-Marine bolter (stalker), they deal exactly the same average damage against W2 marines (2.22). With bolt and auto-bolt rifles, the Tacs deal significantly more damage. So 4 bolters and a heavy bolter are better weapons.

So because stalker bolters deal the same damage as a tac unit with a heavy bolter which apparently is better at identical points? What?

+1 attack is far from irrelevant. One the biggest issues of fighting interceptors is that they actually pack a punch if you want to put them in melee, especially if the sergeant has a thunder hammer.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

John D Law wrote:
So now the new guys who are a head taller are no better than the original? So what’s the point of primaris now?

It's the same with Sisters and you don't see people complaining that the new tall Sisters and the old short Sisters share the exact same profile!

It's almost like GW could have continued to update lines with fancy new toys that scale crept and updated aesthetics like they've done (probably?) every edition and it wouldn't have caused as big ripples.

Honestly, the whole Primaris thing has always felt like weird mind games to me, and I'm still not sure what transition they want us to accept or why or how much was planned vs. them messing around and changing to see what works better, but it kinda stinks of something and has left me disliking the whole maneuver to the point that I just have never felt the interest in playing any, despite the updates often being pretty solid.

If I'm still casually playing 40k when marines disappear, I'll be using mine as primaris, whether or not the change is officially supported.