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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Obviously very table dependent but the requirement for exposed is pretty generous - line of sight between the two crossfire units and being able to draw a line between the two. You can have units on opposite sides of the table and so long as you can meet that, you have exposed. Most armies can manage to screen out 9" drops, but many will have trouble stopping you from bringing in dudes at 6".
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Hilarious timmy combo at ~1000pts level with Bladed Cog.

I had a 20-man neophyte squad, 4x Seismics, 4x GLs. icon in the squad. Primus with Singleminded. Magos with Stimulus+Mass Hyp. Biophagus with an Aberrant squad with A Trap Sprung. upgrade both Abbys and Neos with Bionics. Fill out the rest with Jackals and min aco squads for scoring.

Neophyte squad in light cover with Broodvolt Surge+one with the shadows = base 2+ save vs anti-chaff weaponry

Enemy aims good Ap weapons at them? 5++/5+FNP from the biophagus upgrade

Ties them up in melee? Psychic stimulus, fall back and shoot.

And d6 come back per turn. Hilarious setup. My opponent basically said "Oh no, it's 20 skitarii all over again!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

I think exposed is easier to set up side-to-side across the board than straight from DZ to DZ in earlier rounds. We have some good fast options that can Scout and move up the flanks to enable them to get a crossfire + exposed in, and/or the From Every Angle squad coming in turn one. In later turns, dropping in small units of hand-flamers to grab Secondaries will tend to open up options for Exposed from DZ to DZ.
But Covering Fire and Coordinated Assault only require the token, not Exposed, to trigger.
I have been thinking about it and Prowling Agitant is a pretty amazing charge defence - especially if your opponent tries to multi-charge your character and a squad - it wouldn't be difficult to move far enough to make their charge either too long or illegal, and you will have still had the opportunity to Overwatch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 03:56:51


 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




I think that Jackals are probably one of the best units to get exposed to be honest, but it turns them into such a suicide squad that it almost feels like it isn't worth it. I guess in the end it doesn't matter, I have been having great success with GSC without even worrying about exposed. The army just feels good when playing but I am finding that heavy mining laser Ridgerunners are a bit disappointing. Ridgerunners in generally seem to just lack either staying power or punch, leaving them as just kind of meh.

Love heavy incenerator Rockgrinders though. Have had much success with them running up field as charge deterrents due to overwatch on top of being a good melee unit. Demo charges are cheap enough with a small Acolyte squad inside that they pack a good bit of punch on a semi-durable chassis.
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

Having another look at Hivecult, and to be honest, I was only thinking about the "Actions after Advancing or Falling Back, and with shooting" in relation to Secondaries, but I just had a lightbulb moment (forgive me if you saw this from the start) - this makes some of our characters a bit more of a mobile threat - The Reductus can move while she drops her booby trap, the Biophagus and Iconward can Advance if they need to to buff the right unit, and all of them can shoot - which given they are armed with autopistols isn't much, unless you give one the Oppressor' Bane, which gives them Crossfire and the chance to trigger the Stratagems if required.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Saboteur can't move while doing an action, not even in Hive Cult.

2 things at play here.
You can't do actions after Advancing or Falling Back.
Hive Cult lets you ignore this.

And you can't move, shoot, psychic, charge ect while doing an action.
Hive Cult lets you shoot while doing an action, it does not allow you to move while doing an action.

Since the Saboteurs action is from Command Phase to End of Movement Phase she can't move and complete the action.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

The jackals are core, are they not? If so you can use the good doctor to give them 5++ on top of the bonuses they already have. Regrow the wolf quad back is like SM apothecary all over again.

   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Iconward is looking really fun imo. neo mass assault type lists certainly seem like an valid option.
And now i just kitbashed a biophagus medic for my count as GSC.

Anyways, does the custom trait that makes all wound rolls off 1/2 fail deny wound rerolls?

Also whats the opinion on the rifle sanctus, does his soulsight ability really just make him autohit with the rifle?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




 Niiai wrote:
The jackals are core, are they not? If so you can use the good doctor to give them 5++ on top of the bonuses they already have. Regrow the wolf quad back is like SM apothecary all over again.


I mean, yes they are core but you are talking about a character with 6" movement attached to a unit with a 14" movement with a CHANCE of giving 5++. Of course you can use Alchemist Supreme to get it but I really don't think it is worth it on a T4 2W 5+ unit.

Also, unless you know something I don't the Biophagus can not bring models back. Though you can use an Iconward to do it....Hmm Lying in Wait on an Iconward with a couple of blobs of Jackals might be something to play with. Though I do wonder if the investment would be worth it.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
Iconward is looking really fun imo. neo mass assault type lists certainly seem like an valid option.
And now i just kitbashed a biophagus medic for my count as GSC.

Anyways, does the custom trait that makes all wound rolls off 1/2 fail deny wound rerolls?

Also whats the opinion on the rifle sanctus, does his soulsight ability really just make him autohit with the rifle?
why would 1/2 fail deny re-rolls? It does exactly what it says, no more no less.

And yes a Sanctus automatically hits with his sniper rifle. And therefor automatically puts down a crossfire marker.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

What unit do you using the alchemist supreme on? Most bang for your buck is a 10 man units of abberants. But the good doctor can just deeps trike with them and hand the buff out then. The real Beaty of the alchemist Supreme is that you get to choose, something your normally can not do on core. Atelan jackals are such a good allround unit. - 1 to hit. 2 wounds. Good movement. Fall back and charge. And you can regrow with the iconward later in the game. 2 wolf quads are 8 wounds if you roll a 3+. That sounds insane. Perhaps the iconward needs 'lying in wait'. Some playtesting needs to be done.

If course this is in a vacume. You would need a list where are of this fits in. Just the thought on regrowing 2 of the wolf quads with 5++ sounds nice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 17:11:08


   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Ordana wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Iconward is looking really fun imo. neo mass assault type lists certainly seem like an valid option.
And now i just kitbashed a biophagus medic for my count as GSC.

Anyways, does the custom trait that makes all wound rolls off 1/2 fail deny wound rerolls?

Also whats the opinion on the rifle sanctus, does his soulsight ability really just make him autohit with the rifle?
why would 1/2 fail deny re-rolls? It does exactly what it says, no more no less.

And yes a Sanctus automatically hits with his sniper rifle. And therefor automatically puts down a crossfire marker.

When someone rolls like, say 5 2/1s to wound you, will they still be automatically discarded or will a wound reroll effect override that.
That is my question.

Well the crossfire sanctus seems really solid then.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

Not Online!!! wrote:
When someone rolls like, say 5 2/1s to wound you, will they still be automatically discarded or will a wound reroll effect override that.
That is my question.

They will still have the ability to reroll those wound rolls.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 MinMax wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
When someone rolls like, say 5 2/1s to wound you, will they still be automatically discarded or will a wound reroll effect override that.
That is my question.

They will still have the ability to reroll those wound rolls.

Then why ever pick it ?
1 anyways fail always and 2' s kick in on s6+ weapons which nobody uses on infantry normaly and on vehicles most weapons will wound on 3s anyways...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




 Niiai wrote:
What unit do you using the alchemist supreme on? Most bang for your buck is a 10 man units of abberants. But the good doctor can just deeps trike with them and hand the buff out then. The real Beaty of the alchemist Supreme is that you get to choose, something your normally can not do on core. Atelan jackals are such a good allround unit. - 1 to hit. 2 wounds. Good movement. Fall back and charge. And you can regrow with the iconward later in the game. 2 wolf quads are 8 wounds if you roll a 3+. That sounds insane. Perhaps the iconward needs 'lying in wait'. Some playtesting needs to be done.

If course this is in a vacume. You would need a list where are of this fits in. Just the thought on regrowing 2 of the wolf quads with 5++ sounds nice.


I am toying with the idea of a 15 man acolyte squad as the target with Alchemist Supreme. A bonesword leader with 6 heavy rock saws, Iconward support on top of an Icon in the group almost guaranteeing that you are getting 3 bodies back every turn. All of that together is just 350 points and you don't need to include the Biophagus in the squad because he can be off doing other things having already given the buff pre-game. I would NEVER use Alchemist Supreme on Aberrants due to the fact that if he uses his ability on Aberrants in the first place, you get to choose the buff.

My experience with Atelan Jackals, despite being my favorite unit in the codex, that a 5+++ would be wasted on them. The positions you want to get them into mean that they are very likely to be charged by a nasty melee unit which is great because if you do it right then you are holding a melee unit down in your opponents deployment zone. Jackals are a great distraction unit but not much else and the 5+++ would be more useful with something with some more staying power, like the big blobs of Acolytes or Neophytes IMHO.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Not Online!!! wrote:
 MinMax wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
When someone rolls like, say 5 2/1s to wound you, will they still be automatically discarded or will a wound reroll effect override that.
That is my question.

They will still have the ability to reroll those wound rolls.

Then why ever pick it ?
1 anyways fail always and 2' s kick in on s6+ weapons which nobody uses on infantry normaly and on vehicles most weapons will wound on 3s anyways...


If you don't like it don't pick it. It ain't harder then that.

Meanwhile my friend is playing detahguard with a lot of S6 and S8 weapons and I will end up with a lot of T2 and T3 models. It is probably good vs all manner of thunderhammer, powerfistst and dreandought weapons. Going from a 5/6 to 2/3 is psycological warfare on your opponent.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
What unit do you using the alchemist supreme on? Most bang for your buck is a 10 man units of abberants. But the good doctor can just deeps trike with them and hand the buff out then. The real Beaty of the alchemist Supreme is that you get to choose, something your normally can not do on core. Atelan jackals are such a good allround unit. - 1 to hit. 2 wounds. Good movement. Fall back and charge. And you can regrow with the iconward later in the game. 2 wolf quads are 8 wounds if you roll a 3+. That sounds insane. Perhaps the iconward needs 'lying in wait'. Some playtesting needs to be done.

If course this is in a vacume. You would need a list where are of this fits in. Just the thought on regrowing 2 of the wolf quads with 5++ sounds nice.


I am toying with the idea of a 15 man acolyte squad as the target with Alchemist Supreme. A bonesword leader with 6 heavy rock saws, Iconward support on top of an Icon in the group almost guaranteeing that you are getting 3 bodies back every turn. All of that together is just 350 points and you don't need to include the Biophagus in the squad because he can be off doing other things having already given the buff pre-game. I would NEVER use Alchemist Supreme on Aberrants due to the fact that if he uses his ability on Aberrants in the first place, you get to choose the buff.

My experience with Atelan Jackals, despite being my favorite unit in the codex, that a 5+++ would be wasted on them. The positions you want to get them into mean that they are very likely to be charged by a nasty melee unit which is great because if you do it right then you are holding a melee unit down in your opponents deployment zone. Jackals are a great distraction unit but not much else and the 5+++ would be more useful with something with some more staying power, like the big blobs of Acolytes or Neophytes IMHO.
I don't see a world in which 15 t4 wounds that make up 1/5 of your army somehow survive a single turn on the table to be able to use a cult Icon.

   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




 Ordana wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
What unit do you using the alchemist supreme on? Most bang for your buck is a 10 man units of abberants. But the good doctor can just deeps trike with them and hand the buff out then. The real Beaty of the alchemist Supreme is that you get to choose, something your normally can not do on core. Atelan jackals are such a good allround unit. - 1 to hit. 2 wounds. Good movement. Fall back and charge. And you can regrow with the iconward later in the game. 2 wolf quads are 8 wounds if you roll a 3+. That sounds insane. Perhaps the iconward needs 'lying in wait'. Some playtesting needs to be done.

If course this is in a vacume. You would need a list where are of this fits in. Just the thought on regrowing 2 of the wolf quads with 5++ sounds nice.


I am toying with the idea of a 15 man acolyte squad as the target with Alchemist Supreme. A bonesword leader with 6 heavy rock saws, Iconward support on top of an Icon in the group almost guaranteeing that you are getting 3 bodies back every turn. All of that together is just 350 points and you don't need to include the Biophagus in the squad because he can be off doing other things having already given the buff pre-game. I would NEVER use Alchemist Supreme on Aberrants due to the fact that if he uses his ability on Aberrants in the first place, you get to choose the buff.

My experience with Atelan Jackals, despite being my favorite unit in the codex, that a 5+++ would be wasted on them. The positions you want to get them into mean that they are very likely to be charged by a nasty melee unit which is great because if you do it right then you are holding a melee unit down in your opponents deployment zone. Jackals are a great distraction unit but not much else and the 5+++ would be more useful with something with some more staying power, like the big blobs of Acolytes or Neophytes IMHO.
I don't see a world in which 15 t4 wounds that make up 1/5 of your army somehow survive a single turn on the table to be able to use a cult Icon.


I can't help but feel you don't quiet understand how GSC's work. I can drop this unit 8" away from an opponent, give them a +1 to charge with the Iconward.I could go so far as to give them 3d6 charge drop the lowest. On top of all of that GSC is an army about picking and choosing your engagements, between ambush markers and underground I typically get to dictate what I want to engage and when.

GSC is the furthest thing from an army that just walks across the table with its fragile bodies. I have so many options to mitigate alpha strikes and can easily pick apart potential threats before they get to do their damage.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Isn't cult icon bringing stuff back? So point he is making(I think) is you come in, you charge, you do damage to enemy. Great. Then you are in open in opponents turn and he gets to do something to your unit. He's arguing your unit won't survive the counter punch enough to bring models back as you are dead.

Just because you charge from deep strike doesn't mean you are immune to damage next turn. After your turn comes your opponents turn. Opponent can kill your units in his turn.

Similar to how last game with my sisters my zephyrim charged out of deepstrike and took out the enemy unit. Great. But of course come my next turn there were no zephyrim left so any "bring back X models" rules would have been useless. 40k is so lethal that expecting unit to survive after exposing(and if you charge something you expose yourself generally) is optimistic. Are 15 acolytes tougher than 10 zephyrim reducing AP by 1 (S5 attacks so T3 vs T4 would be irrelevant)? Maybe.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/19 11:10:12


2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:

Just because you charge from deep strike doesn't mean you are immune to damage next turn.


To be fair, we have a way of being exactly that, but given the discussion is about the durability of such a unit when stacking cult icon and other buffs, obviously not what he intends to do and even if he did it'd make the icon waste of points as he wouldn't be using it for half the game (also I'm fully expecting an errata for Return to Shadows disallowing it to be used on a unit which has just arrived as reinforcements).
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Exactly, you land, charge something and probably kill it. Then either go back into reserves (and so don't need, or be able to use, an icon) or you stay on the board and if you stay on the board with 15 t4 models your opponent is going to remove them. No self respecting 40k army should have trouble removing 15 acolytes even after you alpha strike them.

And if they can't kill 15 acolytes to wipe the entire unit and allow you to bring 3 back they are so crippled I imagine you win that game with or without the Acolytes.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Sorry, not everyone plays at a super competitive level?

If my normal opponents puts that much fire power into those acolytes that means things like my Jackals, Purestrains and Neophytes are going unmolested. Remember that all those points aren't wrapped up in that squad, a good third of the points are in characters that can continue to do other things. I am by no means saying this is a super competitive cutting edge build, but I think it has potential or at least more potential than you are giving it.

Bringing back three models potentially a turn is important when you can bring back special weapons. As far as I can tell you can bring back special weapons so even if you have one surviving model you can bring back the special weapons to do some damage. I can force my opponent to commit to killing the unit much like with Necrons.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Yeah 'It dies to removal' is not really that constructive as it is rather implissit in the game we play.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can force my opponent to commit to killing the unit much like with Necrons.


I think the issue is that this is exactly like 8th Edition Necrons - and kind of the kiss of death as a result.

I think the Iconward might not be too bad. He doesn't need to get too many bodies, across a range of squads, to easily be worth his points.
20 point Icons though just seem a leap too far. If you stack defensives you can get some funny outcomes - but it feels sort of surplus to requirements.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Tyel wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I can force my opponent to commit to killing the unit much like with Necrons.


I think the issue is that this is exactly like 8th Edition Necrons - and kind of the kiss of death as a result.

I think the Iconward might not be too bad. He doesn't need to get too many bodies, across a range of squads, to easily be worth his points.
20 point Icons though just seem a leap too far. If you stack defensives you can get some funny outcomes - but it feels sort of surplus to requirements.


I generally agree, but so far in my games I've had some decent success with 20 man Neopythes with Icon. I haven't tried it with Acolytes and I accept that D3 is a lot worse than D6 bodies back. None the less, I want to give it a try and see what it does.
   
Made in nz
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



New Zealand

Some of the Relics seem to be only a slight improvement, where others are a huge boost.
For example, the Gift from Beyond gives +12" range and 1 extra damage, which is OK, but Wyrmtooth rounds triple the Keler's damage output against most targets even allowing for half the number of shots. And the Oppressor's Bane makes a character not just an actual shooting threat, but turns on Crossfire for other units too.
The Crouchling gives you a 4 or 5 in 36 chance (11-14%) to have a non-deniable cast and a re-roll, whereas the Unwilling Orb gives you an extra deny every turn from any range and +1 to cast [Crouchling allows you to be a bit more aggressive, I guess].

Question: If you replace the Magus bio-dagger with the dagger of swift sacrifice it appears that the Magus is still limited to no more than 1 attack with it?

What is your favourite relic, and why?
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





hangnailnz wrote:
Some of the Relics seem to be only a slight improvement, where others are a huge boost.
For example, the Gift from Beyond gives +12" range and 1 extra damage, which is OK, but Wyrmtooth rounds triple the Keler's damage output against most targets even allowing for half the number of shots. And the Oppressor's Bane makes a character not just an actual shooting threat, but turns on Crossfire for other units too.
The Crouchling gives you a 4 or 5 in 36 chance (11-14%) to have a non-deniable cast and a re-roll, whereas the Unwilling Orb gives you an extra deny every turn from any range and +1 to cast [Crouchling allows you to be a bit more aggressive, I guess].

Question: If you replace the Magus bio-dagger with the dagger of swift sacrifice it appears that the Magus is still limited to no more than 1 attack with it?

What is your favourite relic, and why?
yes, the relic dagger doesn't replace the models existing weapon, it adds additional rules to it, so the Magus would still only get 1 attack.

Favorite relic? Probably the Unwilling Orb. Board wide denies are great, and thanks to Gestalt Consciousness strat it means you can stay out of Deny range, safely buff a crucial unit and still be able to deny.

Best relic tho probably goes to the Nexos one. CP regen (we have so many good stratagems) and giving the Primus aura to 2 different units.
We have so many good relics, if we could I would bring 4 every single game. (Cranial Inlay, Wyrmtooth Rounds, Unwilling Orb and Hand of Abberance)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 10:42:31


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I was thinking that the wyrmtooth rounds are quite good (80 points and 1 relic and he shoots much better then a ridge runner.) However, the heavy part is quite annoying.

If you are in a cult that counts as stasionary after advancing you could perhaps start him on the table (or in a truck) and have him run up, hitting the wyrmtooth at BS2.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





The heavy part is a non issue if he is shooting at something with a Crossfire marker.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I have not yet played with the new codex, but I am having trouble fitting in all the troops I want in a battalion. I think I may have to go battalion+patrol.

I could go brigade...but I don't have enough heavy slot choices for that since brood brothers are gone from the 'dex!


 
   
 
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