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BrookM wrote:I'm surprised there was no propaganda post on the GW site yesterday. Which makes me think that they had one prepared ("Our glorious product conquers all hearts, what was your first model?") but with the massive backlash decided to scrap it and instead keep it quiet.

Yeah, I was really hopeful there would have been a post on What's New Today about it, or maybe something on Facebook...something, anything addressing this obvious issue. I would have had a little more respect for GW if they actually addressed our concerns and at least told us they were solving the problem, but hell, you wouldn't even know there was one.

realgenius wrote:

Eilif wrote:At this point AFAIK, Fincast shippments to FLGS are limited (I believe Mikaila said something to this effect).

I've also heard that FC shipments are limited to three and my FLGS didn't have more than three of anything that I noticed.

I picked up a Finecast Dante and was quite happy with the quality. Clean up on the resin is a snap, especially compared to all those small vent worms on metal models.

Yeah, I thought the Finecast Dante looked pretty cool in person, too. I bought one a while back and painted it up for my brother, and it was kinda hard to resist buying another one for myself.

EDIT: A metal one, I mean. When I saw the Finecast one I wanted to buy it again.

brother_zach wrote:What I do see as a good thing are the orc bosses on dragons. Its great to see them in such a ligther material that doesen't require a lifetime of assembly.

Bad thing is Azhag is still $90. Can I get a "lolwut"?

army310 wrote:

carmachu wrote:

army310 wrote:
I think all the bad press is coming from PP or something

Do you realize how stupid that sounds? I mean, really? PP had their response to finecast and other GW stupidity, faking problems isnt it.

No but if you quote dont quote like fox news, quote the hole thing.

It wouldn't have made a difference, it would have sounded just as stupid.

BTW, if you want your proof of a price rise, check out the GW website right now. The US one has the new prices and warriors/wyches are $29 now. Among other increases, obviously, but DE are the only army I care about right now so that's all I've looked at.

winterdyne wrote:Here's an update - I sent a link to my blog over to the Customer Services guys at GW. Anyway, I'm being sent a new Captain Stern. No argument, just a shipping notification, nice and efficient. Big kudos to Customer Services.

So, it seems that GW Customer Services also agree this level of fixing is not really acceptable for a premium product. Let's see if the replacement is up to par.

Cool.

As far as people wanting primed pictures, I could try, but it would be Friday by the earliest before I could actually get pics up. But I have to admit, the idea of playing a "guess which is which!" game is kind of fun.

Lord Scythican wrote:

evilsponge wrote:Photographing bare models is are always going to be biased towards the finecast miniatures. Metal's very natures makes it hard to capture the details of a model.

And I have seen this posted several times and still we keep seeing bare models posted. I think I have already mentioned that I would like to see a finecast and a resin one both painted the same flat colour for a comparison. I guess I am going to have to go and buy a finecast and do it myself.

The Warhammer Forum has this:


Which Caradryan is Finecast then?

BTW
The lack of forehead rune on one is to the the angle of the shot, as clarified by a post from the OP on TWF

Since you brought it up, I will clarify that the rune on the forehead actually looks about the same in both models, the model on the left is just at the wrong angle to the light to capture it. I think viewers should ignore the forehead rune.

From the same poster on the Warhammer forums.

Shut in a model case on a sunny day (33 C) with windows up in the car.

Oh dear...


Towards the end of the page:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87310&start=270

Where I live in Australia most of summer is above 33 degrees during the day. I know a shut car is much hotter, but I do get around in a car...

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:From the same poster on the Warhammer forums.

Shut in a model case on a sunny day (33 C) with windows up in the car.

Oh dear...


Towards the end of the page:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87310&start=270

Where I live in Australia most of summer is above 33 degrees during the day. I know a shut car is much hotter, but I do get around in a car...

91F isn't uncommon in most of the world! I'd say that's low by a few degrees for the average summer day time temp here. That would be a pain to fix after being painted.

That's ok though because GW is offering a new premium mini case for finecast.

Ugh, I just sat down to clean up a Finecast incubi...I grabbed a random model out of the box and went to work, and already my overall positive view on these particular models is starting to change. There were a lot more defects than what was readily apparent, and I even got a bit of the mold on this one. So that's two models out of five that are going to need quite a bit of GS work.

Ah, I couldn't tell which was which . Honestly, I think it'd be more apparent on a larger model... say, the Carnosaur or Shaggoth, but I can't afford a finecast one to compare to atm!

Sidstyler, for some reason my opinion went up of the material once I actually assembled my model- it assembles really, really easily. I did notice more of the small defects like you have (some small pitting and air bubbles I missed the first time) but I guess that's just going to be something we'll have to deal with... or maybe the QC will improve.

Honestly, I'd never worked with resin and was a bit worried about doing so. Seems to be pretty easy, though... and no, I'm not going to leave it in the car (but then I never do anymore, anyway).

Sidstyler wrote:Ugh, I just sat down to clean up a Finecast incubi...I grabbed a random model out of the box and went to work, and already my overall positive view on these particular models is starting to change. There were a lot more defects than what was readily apparent, and I even got a bit of the mold on this one. So that's two models out of five that are going to need quite a bit of GS work.

That pretty much sums up my experience too, bought the skaven warlord, check in the store packed as much as I could all looked good, got home unpacked and initial clean was fine, then went on to start scraping a few mould lines and started to notice more and more defects, little bubbles being the main problem. Its not loads and a little greenstuff will bring it back upto par but it's way more of a pain then snipping a few worms off the metals and almost as time consuming as pinning >.>

So basically you pay more for a lighter model with the same detail and work needed *sigh*

Still if the fix the casting it might just about be an improvement.

Lol, it's quite hard to tell those two Caradryans apart. This is like comparing DVD to Blueray on a normal TV.

Flashman wrote:Lol, it's quite hard to tell those two Caradryans apart. This is like comparing DVD to Blueray on a normal TV.

Well if I had to make a bet, I would say the one on the right is the finecast model. Yeah it is for sure.


With that said, the lighting could be making all the difference in the world. If someone decides to do another comparison, try to have them positioned in the exact spot. For example, set up your white paper and trace the base onto the paper with a pencil. Take a picture and then take another with the exact same settings. If you want me to combine them into one photo, just send me the pics.

The reason why I say this, is because the level of detail on the metal model (the left one) looks superior due to the position of the light source casting a deeper shadow. If anyone wants to take bets against me, I am open to it, but I am 99% sure the Finecast is the one on the right.

I think the finecast one is the one on the right also.

Finecast seems to have a lot of problems beyond the current production issues with miscasts and bubbles that its hard to judge how widespread they are. Those they can fix with better quality control and experience I would hope.

1. fails the hot car test. (the warped figure in the picture above)
2. fails the young gamer test. (young gamers tend to put their figures in shoeboxes <shudder> and are the most prone to dropping them)
3. fails the easily safe to work with test (have to wear mask as precaution when working with resin as inhalation of the dust is quite bad for you)
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)

I'm wondering here, if the quality controll was not that good if it will be any better with the replacements shipped... Theres a good possibility the replacements will also have the same issues.

Avariel wrote:
1. fails the hot car test. (the warped figure in the picture above.)

So does most forgeworld pieces. So really is this anything new or unexpected? Durability was never a selling point of their new material.

Avariel wrote:
2. fails the young gamer test. (young gamers tend to put their figures in shoeboxes <shudder> and are the most prone to dropping them.)

I've seen young gamers chip models that were coated with significant amounts of protective varnish... does that mean GW's paints are defective? Accidents happen, at least with their lower weight they don't shatter at superglued joints.

Avariel wrote:
3. fails the easily safe to work with test (have to wear mask as precaution when working with resin as inhalation of the dust is quite bad for you.)

First GW claims you don't need any respiration and was given UK certification to that end... the precautions taken in general are not because of the resin content, but because any fine dust, even ultra-fine sand, can cause certain issues. Metal filings if fine enough are just as bad. Some times being precautious is being overly cautious.

Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)

Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.

aka_mythos wrote:

Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)

Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.

How do you figure that one? GW by their own admission, have claimed it is a cheaper and more cost-effective method of production as well as being a cheaper raw material, yet the actual models are more expensive, in most cases, than their metal counterparts were...

oh man..... Raptors in resin.... Ones that don't tip over at the slightest nudge.... do wantttt.

I'll bite, GW. Thank you. Oh, and plague marines in resin too. Hmm..... No, I don't want that, thanks.

NAVARRO wrote:I'm wondering here, if the quality controll was not that good if it will be any better with the replacements shipped... Theres a good possibility the replacements will also have the same issues.

Having worked in a manufacturing setting here is my take on GW's QC problem... in any given month GW releases 4 maybe 5 new blisters and manufactures replacement stock for whatever ones are getting low... they probably have a handful of workers in their QC department, maybe 3 or 4, specifically tasked with looking at the metal miniatures being produced. This month GW released ~130 blisters and sets of Finecraft on top of any restocking of still metal sets... and guess what?-It was likely those same 3 or 4 people inspecting all these releases... maybe they brought on temps or moved some people around temporarily to aid with the volume, but they're probably not used to this job. Needless to say now that they've rolled out the vast majority of these, the proper QC people can spend more time per model during inspection. The QC problem is really a volume problem, not a true quality issue. This isn't a unique issue, it happens with other companies all the time.

Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here.

filbert wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Avariel wrote:
4. fails the cost effective test. (It costs more since they take longer to make.)

Can't argue this one; it costs what it costs but is probably cheaper than if they stuck to white metal alloys.

How do you figure that one? GW by their own admission, have claimed it is a cheaper and more cost-effective method of production as well as being a cheaper raw material, yet the actual models are more expensive, in most cases, than their metal counterparts were...

Once again if you look at GW prices and their financial records from their investors page you can see they markup their products 400% over cost of manufacturing to maintain a 9.5% profit. That means $1 worth of tin in the white metal has to sell for $4... well tin went up by 60%. So $1 of tin now had to sell for $6.4.... but rather than bump their model from $4 to $6.40, they went for an option that was $5 and provided a modest improvement in casting quality.

This price increase would have happened no matter what. It is the end result of the financial concept of alternative cost... where by GW saw the cost of doing nothing was too high. It was either do nothing and see a 23~24% increase to keep using metal because of the price of tin or see a 15~19% increase by shifting to a resin-plastic mixture, with some quality improvements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

loki old fart wrote:Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here.

Not everyone read the other forum's page and the guy who posted here posed the question to people on this forum.

aka_mythos wrote:Once again if you look at GW prices and their financial records from their investors page you can see they markup their products 400% over cost of manufacturing to maintain a 9.5% profit. That means $1 worth of tin in the white metal has to sell for $4... well tin went up by 60%. So $1 of tin now had to sell for $6.4.... but rather than bump their model from $4 to $6.40, they went for an option that was $5 and provided a modest improvement in casting quality.

This price increase would have happened no matter what. It is the end result of the financial concept of alternative cost... where by GW saw the cost of doing nothing was too high. It was either do nothing and see a 23~24% increase to keep using metal because of the price of tin or see a 15~19% increase by shifting to a resin-plastic mixture, with some quality improvements.

So GW have done all this to keep prices low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?

Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!

aka_mythos wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

loki old fart wrote:Why are you guys saying, you think it's the right hand mini.
When the owner of the mini's has already said as much on the other forum.
Before it was posted on here.

Not everyone read the other forum's page and the guy who posted here posed the question to people on this forum.

I bet you read the last page of a novel before the first page don't you loki old fart?


I didn't read the other forum because if I just wanted the answer, I wouldn't have even bothered guessing.


Now for the reasons why I think it is the right one:

The one on the right has the same hair sticking out of the top of the staff that the pic with the heat bent staff has. In addition, the one on the right has a mold line at the bottom of the staff that is just like the picture of the one that has been heat bent. The one of the left doesn't.

However the one on the left looks like it has better detail, but that is because of the shadow depth on the details due to it being in a different position and closer to the light source.

BrassScorpion wrote:

olympia wrote:

puma713 wrote:Wow, an Ork Big Mek costs nearly as much as 3 Killa Kans? The price change doesn't really hit you until you look at something you actually may want to buy.

Seriously? That's f***d up!

It might be if it was true. Fact check:

Killa Kans $44.50
Ork Big Mek with Bosspole $20.00
Ork Big Mek $22.50
Ork Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun $38.00

Source: http://search.games-workshop.com/search?locale=us&keywords=big+mek

In other words, unless one was speaking of the Shokk Attack Gun, the statement isn't true like half the stuff one sees on this forum. And though it went up in price, the Shokk Attack Gun was already quite expensive and has cost more than $30 for years.

So what's more likely? That I was talking about the SAG Big Mek, which is almost as much as 3 Killa Kans, or that I was talking about a regular ole Big Mek, which is not almost as much as 3 Killa Kans?

Go ahead, take some time to think on it, Brass Scorpion.

Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it and it's been more than $30 for ages because of it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. The Shokk Attack Gun was already $35 before the latest price hike, it only went up $3. There's nothing new about that kit being very expensive as I already pointed out. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.

filbert wrote:
So GW have done all this to keep costs low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?

Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!

I never said that. Chances are they said "We'll use this alternate material because a 25% price increase will cause sale volumes to drop off too much."

GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry.

BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.

Actually, your point doesn't stand at all. You said my statement was false. It wasn't false. The model is a Big Mek (I can give you the website addy if you want, but you seem proficient enough to look it up for yourself), not a "Shokk Attack Gun", no matter what people call it. So, pointing out that a Big Mek being $38, which is almost as much as Killa Kans at $44.50 isn't fallacious in any regard. Whatsoever.

Seems like you were being rude in the first place. And obtuse. But I'm not sure the latter was as intentional as the former.

Your statement was at the very least inaccurate and misleading if not blatantly false. Moving on...

aka_mythos wrote:

filbert wrote:
So GW have done all this to keep costs low and to cut their loyal customers some slack?

Wow, someone should tell PP and all those other manufacturer's who still use white metal - they must be losing a fortune!

I never said that. Chances are they said "We'll use this alternate material because a 25% price increase will cause sale volumes to drop off too much."

GW's a bigger company and have to deal with greater overhead. Their financials don't lie. 400% markup to produce only 9.5% percent profit, which is not the best situation. A company like PP is probably small enough that they only deal with 200-300% markups to gain a similar margin, that lower ratio of cost and necessary markup make it easier for a company to absorb rising costs. In absolute sales volume and dollar value GW is king in this industry.

If they did say that, then they failed. The price of a Canis Wolfborn has increased £5 from £25 to £30 since the switch to resin, which is a 20% increase on the supposedly cheaper material. Not to mention the Blood Knight box which has jumped exponentially.

Isn't it more likely that GW are using this as a smokescreen to lower their costs, hike their prices, make a bit more money and squeeze a bit more money out of the stone? We saw the same thing last year; cut the operating costs to mask the drop in sales. Same again here - raise the prices and it will help hide the falling sales figures.

Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.

@BrassScropion Could his initial statment be taken as misleading?-Yes, but he clarified that. Cut him some slack, you're being nitpicky and arguing that his throw away comment wasn't specific enough. He clearified his point, albeit with excess sas, but then you made it a semantic arguement about his phrasing rather than his point that a particular kit was nearly as pricy as another. At that point it really should have become a non-arguement since its based on the factual comparison of two numerical values.

You guys need to remember rule number one... keep this friendly.

Rymafyr wrote:Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.

This is actually a dealbreaker for me as well. I keep most of my stuff in the trunk of my car. Having to constantly pull big cases to and from my house to my car (I have a bunch and don't always know what army or system I will be using) is a pain in the ass and the detail isn't so amazing its worth the inconvenience or the price increase.

I haven't bought any GW stuff since 8th edition anyway but this certainly doesn't make me want to come back.

Ixquic wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Regardless of perceived detail, ease to work with, and whatever other asinine excuses the apologists want to give; the deal breaker for me is the pic above. Warpage from sitting in a case in what isn't even that much heat is unacceptable. And seriously, don't give me the, "Forge World" resin argument here...I don't buy their crap either.

This is actually a dealbreaker for me as well. I keep most of my stuff in the trunk of my car. Having to constantly pull big cases too and from my house to my car (I have a bunch and don't always know what army or system I will be using) is a pain in the ass and the detail isn't so amazing its worth the inconvenience or the price increase.

I haven't bought any GW stuff since 8th edition anyway but this certainly doesn't make me want to come back.

Well if you are anything like me, you will not need too much Finecast anyways. I already have all the plague marines and various HQs that I need. If I buy something like a Hive Tyrant or some other Finecast Model, I will keep them in a separate case. You could probably fit all that you will ever own in one of those Gun cases at Wal-Mart for $10.00. Now if it ever gets to the point that you will need an army of Finecast...well that is a different story.

puma713 wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:Then my point stands. The Shokk Attack Gun is a lot more than just a Big Mek mini and it was always much more expensive than the other Big Mek miniatures. People refer to that kit as the Shokk Attack Gun, not a Big Mek. It's the artillery piece in the kit that sells it, if people want just a Big Mek they buy a Big Mek, not an expensive Shokk Attack Gun. Go ahead, think about that for a while and stop being obtuse, silly and rude.

Actually, your point doesn't stand at all. You said my statement was false. It wasn't false. The model is a Big Mek (I can give you the website addy if you want, but you seem proficient enough to look it up for yourself), not a "Shokk Attack Gun", no matter what people call it. So, pointing out that a Big Mek being $38, which is almost as much as Killa Kans at $44.50 isn't fallacious in any regard. Whatsoever.

Seems like you were being rude in the first place. And obtuse. But I'm not sure the latter was as intentional as the former.

You mad son?