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United States

 Dysartes wrote:
I think the core SM book precludes them from taking LIBRARIAN units, but that's about it. Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.

Also, Togusa, you are familiar with what a Codex Supplement is, right?


Yes, I have it right here next to me...along with the worst insomnia I've ever had.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 10:39:05


 
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

Chapter Champions can't be used either. It's an upgrade rather than a datasheet, though.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
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Australia

Togusa wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Spoiler:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Voss wrote:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover

Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.


You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.


That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:

If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.


edit: got page number wrong, corrected



Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:

Spoiler:


Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."


Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.

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(HN) wrote:
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 Dysartes wrote:
Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Ok yeah, that is very strange IMO.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Ok yeah, that is very strange IMO.

I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.

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My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.
BA and Wolves don't lose Vanguard Veterans either, though their SangGuard and WolfGuard are basically the replacement. So nothing new, actually.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 16:54:49


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Vanguard Veterans were a knock off of Blood Angels' Veteran Assault Squads to begin with.
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Given the two variants of Crusader Squads, I'm a little surprised they don't lose access to Tactical Squads, Scout Squads, Intercessors and Assault Intercessors.
Ok yeah, that is very strange IMO.

I could understand them keeping the access before this Supplement, but if there aren't any further restrictions in it, then it seems weird they would keep the units Crusader Squads appear to replace.


GW has spent the last decade of 40k keeping restrictions as low as possible. Restrictions are good for balance and theme, but supposedly not for sales.

It's also not something that inherently* gets them in trouble over acting against their propagated goals as it allows people just fine to restrict themselves to fitting units out of all the available options in order to Forge the Narrative (TM), thus putting any failure to follow the rules of the setting on the customers rather than themselves. So it's a pretty easy thing to do for them.



*until they think people take it too far and we end up with Scouts in Elite to rectify the situation because some cases of disregard for the lore mustn't be allowed, while most are just fine...

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Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).


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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 18:40:31


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 Marshal Loss wrote:
Togusa wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Spoiler:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Voss wrote:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover

Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.


You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.


That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:

If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.


edit: got page number wrong, corrected



Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:

Spoiler:


Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."


Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.


But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.


Primaris Crusaders are only allowed Auto-bolt rifles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/18 02:15:39


 
   
Made in au
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Togusa wrote:
Spoiler:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Togusa wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Voss wrote:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover

Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.


You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.


That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:

If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.


edit: got page number wrong, corrected


Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:



Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."


Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.


But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?

I have the supplement in hand right now. The picture comes from the rules reference at the very end of the supplement, which summarises the major new abilities in dot point form.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 02:38:52


 
   
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United States

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Togusa wrote:
Spoiler:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Togusa wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Voss wrote:
Uphold the Honour of the Emperor
- All models have a 5+ invul save.
- Unmodified wound rolls of 1 and 2 against you always fail.
- You never receive the benefits of light cover

Any cover, not just light.
Its a ridiculously good vow, but you do lose out on benefiting from the -1 to hit from dense cover.


You don't need the benefits of cover to get the -1 to hit from dense cover.


That is incorrect. See page 360 of the rulebook, the rare rules section:

If a rule says that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover', without specifying what benefits are ignored, then, when resolving an attack with that rule, models in the target unit ignore all benefits received from all terrain traits, including those that improve its saving throws, impose penalties on hit rolls and so on. Note that rules that say that the target unit 'does not receive the benefit of cover' do not enable a model or weapon with that rule to target a unit that would not normally be visible due to terrain features with the Obscuring trait.


edit: got page number wrong, corrected


Just want to correct myself because I was evidently wrong: Uphold the Honour of the Emperor does not affect dense cover due to a passage in the BT supplement:



Question, what is written in the actual supplement does not specify light or dense cover. It only says "Each time an enemy model makes an attack against this unit, this unit does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack."


Sure, but therein lies the problem. We have one page which says "does not receive the benefits of cover", which per the rulebook would mean no dense. We also have, as I just posted, a page that only specifies light and heavy, which means dense would be unaffected. Given that the latter explanation goes into greater detail than the former, I'd be inclined to say that Uphold the Honour of the Emperor only stops the use of light & heavy. Needs an FAQ either way.


But where did the light/dense page come from? The picture that quotes light/dense doesn't even look like the codex, are you sure that's even a real image and not someones troll picture? What I am reading which says neither came directly from the Codex Supplement, which is the final say, no?

I have the supplement in hand right now. The picture comes from the rules reference at the very end of the supplement, which summarises the major new abilities in dot point form.


Thanks! Literally didn't even see page 80. Interesting.
   
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 Platuan4th wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.


I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.

Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 03:16:51


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Voss wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.


I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.

Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).


Having access to tacs and actually taking them are 2 different things. Really not game breaking since this army barely adds any new units.
   
Made in au
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Voss wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.


I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.

Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).

I'd just like to point out that for most of their existence Crusader Squads were able to have a heavy weapon - in fact for years their best build were 5-strong squads with a special and a heavy.
It's also not clear that they keep dense cover benefits. The summary of Uphold and rare rules sections saying different things is the exact opposite of clear.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Ok, I got the book in end and I've been reading and rereading to make sure I haven't missed something, but I still feel like I did because the explanation otherwise would make zero sens.
I'm very confused so I need confirmation.

The Primaris crusader squad says:
"All of he Primaris Neophytes in the unit can have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainword replaced with one of the following: 1 Astartes shotgun: 1 bolt carbine each."

And here they are:

Astartes Shotgun: R18 Assault 2 S4 Ap0 D1
Bolt Carbine: R24 Assault 2 S4 Ap0 D1

And they are at the same cost.

Checking the stratagem I see one called Incendiary Shells (1CP) that increase the damage of shotguns for a unit to D2 for a phase.

Did GW literally made the shotgun (a weapon that is strangely absent from the crusader sprue and locked up instead on the upgrade sprue, taking way more space than it has any right there) a strictly weaker choice that can only be justified by the potential use of a stratagem?

Did the guy that wrote that thing did it just because the FB neophytes have access to the shotgun... but totally missed the point that they actually made some sens here because the FB Neophytes use Boltguns that have a significantly different profile (R24 Rapid Fire1 S4 AP0 D1).

Am I missing something or does that look like a pretty weird design choice?
   
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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Aren't Crusader squads limited in the bolt rifle formats they can take? Meaning any person who built intercessors with different load outs, now it would be useless.

Also, with Tac squads, can their load outs be different to a crusader squad, or are they the same options (1 special, 1 heavy etc).



I'm not sure about Primaris Crusaders, but FB Crusader Squads have the option of 1 Special and 1 Power Weapon. So Tacs are there to provide Troop based Heavies that Crusaders don't get access to.


I hate this design direction. Once upon a time, armies that got special things lost access to other things.
'Whatever, have everything!' is terrible game design.

Worse, its not even consistent for space marine chapters (some lose quite a list of units), let alone everyone else.
I'm honestly surprised they kept the ban on librarians at this point (especially now that its clear they can get army-wide 5++ and keep dense cover benefits).

I'd just like to point out that for most of their existence Crusader Squads were able to have a heavy weapon - in fact for years their best build were 5-strong squads with a special and a heavy.
It's also not clear that they keep dense cover benefits. The summary of Uphold and rare rules sections saying different things is the exact opposite of clear.

It is actually clear. Since the summary specifies which cover benefits apply, the rare rules clarification (which applies when cover benefits aren't specified) isn't necessary and doesn't apply.

As to the heavy weapon in 'most of their existence,' iirc they had to trade. They had to sack the heavy weapon for a power weapon or vice versa. Once again, to take something they had to actually give up something else.

@(HN)- its a very GW design choice.
A lot of things about the neophytes are weird. Equipped with chainswords they're just as good as the Initiates, and can benefit from any major buff you care to name (uphold...). The 'but thou must' approach to unit building (sgt, 5 inits and 4 neos) combines oddly with the fact that its actually an advantage to not pay full price for standard primaris. Really both the shotgun and the bolter are a downgrade, and GW often doesn't know how to deal with those.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 03:00:14


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Why would they give them the same damage profile, but one just has less range?

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(HN) wrote:
Ok, I got the book in end and I've been reading and rereading to make sure I haven't missed something, but I still feel like I did because the explanation otherwise would make zero sens.
I'm very confused so I need confirmation.

The Primaris crusader squad says:
"All of he Primaris Neophytes in the unit can have their bolt pistol and Astartes chainword replaced with one of the following: 1 Astartes shotgun: 1 bolt carbine each."

And here they are:

Astartes Shotgun: R18 Assault 2 S4 Ap0 D1
Bolt Carbine: R24 Assault 2 S4 Ap0 D1

And they are at the same cost.

Checking the stratagem I see one called Incendiary Shells (1CP) that increase the damage of shotguns for a unit to D2 for a phase.

Did GW literally made the shotgun (a weapon that is strangely absent from the crusader sprue and locked up instead on the upgrade sprue, taking way more space than it has any right there) a strictly weaker choice that can only be justified by the potential use of a stratagem?

Did the guy that wrote that thing did it just because the FB neophytes have access to the shotgun... but totally missed the point that they actually made some sens here because the FB Neophytes use Boltguns that have a significantly different profile (R24 Rapid Fire1 S4 AP0 D1).

Am I missing something or does that look like a pretty weird design choice?


Gw making units/weapons that are worth only with stratagem isn't weird. It's the new mtg style game design tournament players wanted.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would they give them the same damage profile, but one just has less range?
It’s established weapons with established profiles. It is strange that they have the same point value.
   
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I don't have my cards with me, but can anybody check what the Passion text is for Uphold...?

Does it specify light and heavy cover, too?

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Vihti, Finland

 alextroy wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would they give them the same damage profile, but one just has less range?
It’s established weapons with established profiles. It is strange that they have the same point value.


Well atleast shotguns used to get 1+ Str when target was in half range. Now its objectively worse version bolt carbine.
   
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a_typical_hero wrote:
I don't have my cards with me, but can anybody check what the Passion text is for Uphold...?

Does it specify light and heavy cover, too?

Nope, it's the same vague wording as the main explanation.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




 alextroy wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would they give them the same damage profile, but one just has less range?
It’s established weapons with established profiles. It is strange that they have the same point value.


Voss wrote:
@(HN)- its a very GW design choice.
A lot of things about the neophytes are weird. Equipped with chainswords they're just as good as the Initiates, and can benefit from any major buff you care to name (uphold...). The 'but thou must' approach to unit building (sgt, 5 inits and 4 neos) combines oddly with the fact that its actually an advantage to not pay full price for standard primaris. Really both the shotgun and the bolter are a downgrade, and GW often doesn't know how to deal with those.


They could have made the shotgun cheaper, or just roll with the "NeW pRiMaRiS wEaPoN" thing they have been going for and just make it a different weapon.
The obvious shotgun profile should be something like R12 Assault 1, S5 AP1 D2, that way you have a weapon that "feels" like what you'd expect from a shotgun: short range, single shot, high damage. (or S6 and D1 if you feel like there's too many damage out there these days)

Or just give them the good old Bolter instead of thos Carbine (that weapon feels, like most primaris weapons, like a weird bloat on the weapon list of the marines).

tneva82 wrote:
Gw making units/weapons that are worth only with stratagem isn't weird. It's the new mtg style game design tournament players wanted.

I'd honestly would be tempted to call it awful. If feels like crutch for poorly thought out stat lines.
It's frankly silly that a shotgun has the same stats (but with smaller range) than a bolt carbine that is itself just a "baby autobolt rifle" (same stat with -1 attack), ESPECIALLY when, as Voss pointed out, a mele neophyte is as good as a mele initiate anyway (different pistol, but very minor).

The weirdest part is how the neophytes must all have the same loadout, when the Initiate or even the FB neophytes can have mixed load out.
(and speaking of Neophytes... why have their special weapon only be either a pyre-blaster or fist when there's so many unused power swords and axes on the sprue? Having them as options too wouldn't have broken the datasheet and added the small amount of spice that unit needs when compared to its FB version.
Same for the outriders, giving them the option to take some power weapons wouldn't hurt (but that's more a primaris problem were they have been stripped bare of any options for no real good reasons).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 18:39:11


 
   
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Do we know yet when the rest of the kits are due for preorder? I found it strange they weren't up this week.
   
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West Sussex, UK

Togusa wrote:
Do we know yet when the rest of the kits are due for preorder? I found it strange they weren't up this week.


The army boxes are usually released several weeks before the regular version of the codex, combat patrol box and the other boxes. I would expect to see them towards the end of November.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Germany

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.


I fear for the Chaos Terminators' wargear in the future CSM Codex.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Now having seen the Sword Brethren entry with my own eyes, it's another big *sigh* for GW's insistence on letting mono-pose builds influence the rules.


I fear for the Chaos Terminators' wargear in the future CSM Codex.


Or a new chosen kit.
   
 
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