40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Bertock**

Shadow Walker wrote:
Wierd that Bjorn is not listed with the rest of named characters.

That's because he has the option to change his weapons, choosing between lascannon, frost cannon and other weapons

The truly strange thing is that there isn't the cost for neither the Wolf Lord (without the Thunderwolf) or the generic Dreadnought

**Daedalus81**

Cephalobeard wrote:

Welcome to Disagree, I suppose. Treason is fine, I'm just forever salty about Bolt of Change being absolute garbage in matched play.

The only reason I don't like bolt is that its more mortal wounds, BUT if it lets us sniper characters...(since we have no snipers). That would justify the 7 casting value.

I want to see the full wording before I toss it.

**ClockworkZion**

skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?
A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

How does this mesh with what seems to be the consensus in this thread that no weapons are included in the price of the base model?

Most base weapons are 0 points, which is what they may be referring to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:

SW Spells being better than Tzeentch spells is a painful thing.

I beg to differ. Treason can make a character shoot, charge, and melee his own army! Now we just need to find a LD reducing ability...

The boon is also as good or better than the other two SW spells.

So that's why Celestine was dropped to Ld9....

**Carnage43**

skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?
A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

How does this mesh with what seems to be the consensus in this thread that no weapons are included in the price of the base model?

Most characters come with nothing.

Most units come with the "default" load out (Bolters for marines for example).

The interesting thing is to see what some units get as the default loadout. Terminators are AMAZING at 26 points for a stormbolter and power fist....if they come naked (very likely) then they are....not good at 48 points after paying for the fist and SB.

Not sure why this is hard to figure out for people.

**Shadow Walker**

Bertock wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Wierd that Bjorn is not listed with the rest of named characters.

That's because he has the option to change his weapons, choosing between lascannon, frost cannon and other weapons

That makes sense. Thanks

**Ronin_eX**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:

SW Spells being better than Tzeentch spells is a painful thing.

I beg to differ. Treason can make a character shoot, charge, and melee his own army! Now we just need to find a LD reducing ability...

The boon is also as good or better than the other two SW spells.

Welcome to Disagree, I suppose. Treason is fine, I'm just forever salty about Bolt of Change being absolute garbage in matched play.

This does kind of assume that Bolt of Change requires paying for the spawn. We don't yet know if that counts as "summoning". Given that we have only seen a short blurb in the words of the person that leaked it, you may want to hold off. Probably a bit early yet to start the doom/gloom engine. Especially with regard to JotWW which will usually do around what Smite can to most infantry units, but with a higher casting number and unlike smite, may still fail to do jack even after you succeed at casting it.

**bobafett012**

I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

**skarsol**

ClockworkZion wrote:
skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?
A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

How does this mesh with what seems to be the consensus in this thread that no weapons are included in the price of the base model?

Most base weapons are 0 points, which is what they may be referring to.

Lots of moaning that vehicles are so expensive now because you have to buy all the weapons that come with them separately though. If that's not the case, they get a lot cheaper.

**Aeri**

Expanding the wishlist: can we have some Dark Angels leaks?

Like Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Azrael, Chaplains and the sort?

**Luciferian**

bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

I sincerely hope that's true, otherwise the increased points cost of my models really stings.

**Cephalobeard**

Ronin_eX wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:

SW Spells being better than Tzeentch spells is a painful thing.

I beg to differ. Treason can make a character shoot, charge, and melee his own army! Now we just need to find a LD reducing ability...

The boon is also as good or better than the other two SW spells.

Welcome to Disagree, I suppose. Treason is fine, I'm just forever salty about Bolt of Change being absolute garbage in matched play.

This does kind of assume that Bolt of Change requires paying for the spawn. We don't yet know if that counts as "summoning". Given that we have only seen a short blurb in the words of the person that leaked it, you may want to hold off. Probably a bit early yet to start the doom/gloom engine. Especially with regard to JotWW which will usually do around what Smite can to most infantry units, but with a higher casting number and unlike smite, may still fail to do jack even after you succeed at casting it.

In AOS all abilities that add models to your army that did not start there, cost points. It is an assumption that is how things will work in 8th edition, I will cede that to you. However, I feel it is a safe assumption. Split, summoning, etc, all have been confirmed to cost points.

**Amishprn86**

skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?
A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

How does this mesh with what seems to be the consensus in this thread that no weapons are included in the price of the base model?

Most base weapons are 0 points, which is what they may be referring to.

Lots of moaning that vehicles are so expensive now because you have to buy all the weapons that come with them separately though. If that's not the case, they get a lot cheaper.

The basic Rhino is 70pts now, Raiders are 95pts.

Vehicles went up, but many other things also went down and some went up. The DE post about army points GW just put is only a 9pt difference from 7th ed with the hick in vehicle points.

Over all it is based on the army. I'm sure there is a system now that determines the points.

**GrimTeef**

docdoom77 wrote:
Perfect Organism wrote:
Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
Do we have any Ork info yet? I'm interested in there vehicular options!

Battlewagon is WS 5+ BS 5+ T 7, W 16, Sv 4+ Power 11 (about 220 points with upgrades included) M, S and A depend on remaining wounds. It is now slightly tougher from the side than it was before, but weaker from the front vs. most weapons. Weapons mostly as expected, deffrolla is good again.

Stompa is BS 5+, T 8, W 40, A 4, Sv 4+ Power 49 (980 points) M, WS and S dependent on remaining wounds. Takes slightly more lascannon shots to wreck now, but degrades as it takes damage which wasn't the case in 7th. Deffkannon is only D6 shots (2D6 vs. units of 20 or more), mega-choppa has two attack modes, one S Userx2 (up to S 20), AP -5, D 6, the other triples the number of attacks at S User, AP -2, D D3. Only gives a re-roll to morale tests for nearby units rather than fearless.

Overall, not looking good for mechanised orks.

Or any orks, in fact, since it seems the basic boy has slowed to M 5" and not decreased in points (i.e. is relatively more expensive compared to basic marines) and mega-armour is now M 4".

I wasn't worried about M5 on Orks, because I assumed that would be standard move for non-marine, non-eldar armies (i.e. Tau, IG, etc). But since we've seen that Sisters and Tau move 6, it's a bit of a kick in the pants. Orks have never moved slower than other armies in past editions.

Hmm. I'm still working towards my Kanz, Dreads, and 'Naughts Mobs, not going to be too dissuaded about Orks yet. That does seem odd that Sisters and Tau move 6, but the boyz can charge after advancing on a Waaagh, so maybe that evens out.

Didn't the Stompa lose weapons as it was damaged? Or it didn't because of Super-Heavy status?

**nintura**

So a captain has 6 wounds but Ahriman only has 4?

**Luciferian**

nintura wrote:
So a captain has 6 wounds but Ahriman only has 4?

He stayed inside and read when everyone else was out doing sports.

**Leth**

bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

Pretty sure they mis-understood the question as most individuals will start with their default gear basically being free. So for example a boltgun and grenades is free so marines effectively start with it at that points level.

Otherwise things are ridiculously cheap compared to their power levels if they get their default equipment for free as well as the cost to upgrade a unit gets rediculously expensive.

65 points for a cent with twin heavy bolters and hurricane bolters versus 140 for one with twin lascannon and missile. Yeah not likely.

**Lorex**

Amishprn86 wrote:
skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
skarsol wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?
A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

How does this mesh with what seems to be the consensus in this thread that no weapons are included in the price of the base model?

Most base weapons are 0 points, which is what they may be referring to.

Lots of moaning that vehicles are so expensive now because you have to buy all the weapons that come with them separately though. If that's not the case, they get a lot cheaper.

The basic Rhino is 70pts now, Raiders are 95pts.

Vehicles went up, but many other things also went down and some went up. The DE post about army points GW just put is only a 9pt difference from 7th ed with the hick in vehicle points.

Over all it is based on the army. I'm sure there is a system now that determines the points.

Well if some one have the points for a stock Raider then they can just look if 116pts is with the 2 upgrades are paied for. Not that hard.

**SilverAlien**

bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

How much do you wanna bet they are wrong?

Because, in willing to bet your 2 wound 2 attack 2+ save unit isn't going to get a d3 damage power sword and short range assault bolter for less than twice the price of a normal tactical marine. Those weapons alone cost 22 points in the blood angels section.

That or balance is so utterly screwed up that 8th edition rules are meaningless as we all play 7e (or they do say one point updates).

**Amishprn86**

Via Facebook (IDK if said yet)

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model."

**WrentheFaceless**

Will give arcane technology for Ad Mech leaks

**bobafett012**

Luciferian wrote:
bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

I sincerely hope that's true, otherwise the increased points cost of my models really stings.

Isn't that how you read that? I mean if you go to every data sheet, they have listed what their default gear is. Otherwise there is some VERY hefty price increases in all of these books, like land raiders for well over 300 points is pretty ridiculous tbh if your playing 1500 or 1850 point games. It makes much more sense that a unit comes with standard gear in their base price, then you can spend a bunch more to upgrade. A DC dread with a couple heavy flamers and furioso fists in a pod would be over 300 points, thats nuts if thats the case. When I played in 6th (didn't bother with 7th) you could get a furioso with fists, a HF, in pod for 170 points, so if GW wants to make stuff like dreads balanced/better/competitive, I doubt they would double the price, because they are certainly not all that much more survivable, some yes, but not double points survivable.

**Amishprn86**

Anyone seen any Haywire weapons yet? I'm wondering about them or if they are still around.

**Red Corsair**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Aeri wrote:
Is there any information about Jet Pack units already?

From what we know from the Tau leaks Jet Packs lost JSJ, but have the Fly special rule.

Actually it looks a lot like jump and jet packs both all get fly and don't really have any rules that seperate them beyond keywords.

Actually this is misleading. There are no more jetpack, jetbike, bike, cavalry, jump or beast etc etc.

You either fly or you don't and they give you your own specific movement value to represent the model.

Don't expect old unit types to exist because they already said they were doing away with them in one of the early previews.

**ClockworkZion**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Via Facebook (IDK if said yet)

"Warhammer 40,000 All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model."

Already covered ya there.

That said, it looks like he was talking about the free wargear most units start with, not the stuff that has a points cost listed.

**Youn**

That clarification would change the values by quite a bit. Anyone looking though the books, is that spelled out somewhere?

Example:
Baal Predator (Twin Assault Cannon) = 107 Pts
Baal Predator (Flamestorm Cannon) = 102 Pts
Baal Predator (Twin Assault Cannon + 2 heavy bolter) = 127 Pts
Baal Predator (Twin Assault Cannon + 2 heavy flamer) = 124 Pts
Baal Predator (Flamestorm Cannon + 2 heavy bolter) = 122 Pts
Baal Predator (Flamestorm Cannon + 2 heavy flamer) = 119 Pts

That is if the assault cannons are standard already and you get to replace them.

**ClockworkZion**

bobafett012 wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

I sincerely hope that's true, otherwise the increased points cost of my models really stings.

Isn't that how you read that? I mean if you go to every data sheet, they have listed what their default gear is. Otherwise there is some VERY hefty price increases in all of these books, like land raiders for well over 300 points is pretty ridiculous tbh if your playing 1500 or 1850 point games. It makes much more sense that a unit comes with standard gear in their base price, then you can spend a bunch more to upgrade. A DC dread with a couple heavy flamers and furioso fists in a pod would be over 300 points, thats nuts if thats the case. When I played in 6th (didn't bother with 7th) you could get a furioso with fists, a HF, in pod for 170 points, so if GW wants to make stuff like dreads balanced/better/competitive, I doubt they would double the price, because they are certainly not all that much more survivable, some yes, but not double points survivable.

They list what the default wargear is, but some of that wargear has a points cost attached to it.

**KillswitchUK**

bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

Where did you hear this because I dont think its true as otherwise a stormsurge is 150 points....

**Fenris-77**

Yeah, that's not how it works IMO. That notion of basic weapons being free is kinda covered, for example with Marines, by the bolter's cost being zero. same with grenades. Stuff with a cost gets paid for - so in the case of vehicles, everything.

Let's nip this particular idea in the bud or we'll be 10 pages arguing back and forth about it.

**ClockworkZion**

KillswitchUK wrote:
bobafett012 wrote:
I've seen a bunch of posts saying that the points costs are model only no wargear, but GW just answered this question

Q: Do weapons the unit starts with in its description have to be purchased separately for matched play, or are the points included in the cost of the model?

A: All models come with a standard weapon, and those are covered in the points cost of the base model.

For example, Sanguinary guard come with Angelus boltgun, encarmine sword and frag and krak grenades all for 22 points a model. You can add or upgrade weapons for more but 22 is for the model with default equipment.

Where did you hear this because I dont think its true as otherwise a stormsurge is 150 points....

40k Facebook page Q&A stuff.

That said, I posted on their page for clarification on what they meant and hopefully in a day or so we'll get a response.

For now I assume we should err on the side of caution and assume that if the wargear list has a points cost, it costs points until we can see otherwise.

**Tyran**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Anyone seen any Haywire weapons yet? I'm wondering about them or if they are still around.

Not seen the rules, but at the very least, former haywire weapons are still in. Tyranids still have shockcannons and tentaclids.