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Made in de
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a lot of the Ork stuff can be summed up as "we didn't sell as many of those buggies as we wanted".

So i am not the only one thinking that

Yeah, especially those walker and kopta drops...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a lot of the Ork stuff can be summed up as "we didn't sell as many of those buggies as we wanted".

So i am not the only one thinking that

Yeah, especially those walker and kopta drops...
Ork Codex is released and Ork Player say, "these buggies cost too many points. I'm not going to use them."
CA reduces the point cost of the buggies and Ork player say, "GW is trying to sell more buggies".

Right
   
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 alextroy wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a lot of the Ork stuff can be summed up as "we didn't sell as many of those buggies as we wanted".

So i am not the only one thinking that

Yeah, especially those walker and kopta drops...
Ork Codex is released and Ork Player say, "these buggies cost too many points. I'm not going to use them."
CA reduces the point cost of the buggies and Ork player say, "GW is trying to sell more buggies".

Right


Well one thing's for sure, they're clearly not trying to sell Stompas.
   
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Nebraska, USA

Walker drop does make sense, theyre constantly stuffing deffdreads into our faces and we are always resisting buying anything containing them.
Deffkoptas, especially since i dont know a single person using non-AOBR ones, was the out of left field buff. And to an extent the only one, since Flash Gitz are at least a very complex, somewhat new-ish kit as well. I dont understand why they got a 10pt drop and warbikers didnt get anything. Its pretty common for ork players to want to field dozens of bikers....uh..hey GW might wanna make it possible to do that and i bet the bikers sell like hotcakes! well...not for me i already have 24 of them lol

Theyre not trying to sell stompas because almost every ork player has one and multiples make no sense, even in apocalypse they make no sense (though you could get away with 2 in that format). So why would they care about if people like using it or not? they already sold what they expect to ever sell for it. I bet the only reason its even still on the market is because they have a warehouse of the dang things somewhere

Would also explain how almost ALL of our wargear (Smasha and Skorcha missiles being the only exceptions) are 100% untouched, not even the PK dropped and its 1:1 a powerfist in every way except cost. Wargear doesnt dictate sales.

Not salty, fyi. Love those buggies and glad i can actually USE them now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/03 04:08:25


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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Multiple knights makes sense. No reason stompa couldn't be similarly scaled point wise. As it is originally stompa was basically walking land raider with choppity chop chainsword so there's no need it needs to be so expensive you can't field multiples. You used to field tons of them for same price as bigger titans(like couple dozen vs warlord).

Stompa should be ork knight equilavent(and not neccessarily even as good...Weaker and cheaper would be appropriate) rather than mini warhound which it never has been.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 06:37:46


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In order to justify the stompa's current price it would need bs3 and considerably better durability. T9 with 5+ fnp at minimum and then it would probably need a points drop.

I really don't understand what gw were thinking on low points in this ca. The only good thing was they didn't buff the big knights.
   
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Nah, the stompa should be about 2/3 the power of a warhound, and the girls/morkanaughts should be about 2/3 of a knight.

The ork versions should be slightly behind the imperial ones, and outnumber them on the battlefield.

3 for the price of two just feels right to me. (Just make sure all are worth their cost!)

   
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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nah, the stompa should be about 2/3 the power of a warhound, and the girls/morkanaughts should be about 2/3 of a knight.

The ork versions should be slightly behind the imperial ones, and outnumber them on the battlefield.

3 for the price of two just feels right to me. (Just make sure all are worth their cost!)


Thing is stompa isn't ork equilavent of titan...Orks had another machines for that. Stompa as knight equilavent is about biggest stompa should be. You don't run squadrons of warhounds in non-titan vs titan battles.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in eu
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 alextroy wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a lot of the Ork stuff can be summed up as "we didn't sell as many of those buggies as we wanted".

So i am not the only one thinking that

Yeah, especially those walker and kopta drops...
Ork Codex is released and Ork Player say, "these buggies cost too many points. I'm not going to use them."
CA reduces the point cost of the buggies and Ork player say, "GW is trying to sell more buggies".

Right


All point drops were on units that were not doing well, and the only nerf was minimal and very much deserved. They skipped some things, but they also saved the KFF mek and the biker boss from legends, which was one of the major concerns for ork players.
There could have been more, but what we got is already far more than anyone should have expected.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nah, the stompa should be about 2/3 the power of a warhound, and the girls/morkanaughts should be about 2/3 of a knight.

The ork versions should be slightly behind the imperial ones, and outnumber them on the battlefield.

3 for the price of two just feels right to me. (Just make sure all are worth their cost!)


A stompa is a Castallan/Tyrand-Sized walker at best. Ork titans are called gargants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 07:55:29


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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tneva82 wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Nah, the stompa should be about 2/3 the power of a warhound, and the girls/morkanaughts should be about 2/3 of a knight.

The ork versions should be slightly behind the imperial ones, and outnumber them on the battlefield.

3 for the price of two just feels right to me. (Just make sure all are worth their cost!)


Thing is stompa isn't ork equilavent of titan...Orks had another machines for that. Stompa as knight equilavent is about biggest stompa should be. You don't run squadrons of warhounds in non-titan vs titan battles.


I agree with both you and Lythrandire Biehrellian in some way: nauts should be our knights, not the stompa. Nauts have the same base and size than a knight and similar wargear in terms of shots fired. The stompa is a huge model, 900+ points for it really sound ok, if not even cheap, if you look at it. Of course its rules are a joke but I'd rather have a 1000-1200 points "Warhound equivalent" stompa than a 600 points "Knight equivalent" one. Both ork big walkers should be a bit cheaper and more unrealiable than their imperium equivalents but I'd never want discount stompas so they could be as common as knights (which are the first things I'd remove from standard games).

For size comparison:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 08:09:27


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Naut is new invention. Stompa has always been not even close to titan level. That's why you could field like half a dozen against warhound. It's only recently on 40k where it suddenly artificially got upped in size.

It's basically land raider on legs and choppity chop sword. Frankly even super heavy is pushing it. You don't run formations of nearly dozen super heavies. Orks have gargants for titan level.

Stompa has never been warhound equilavent. why you are trying to make it one? Use the actual warhound equilavents orks have rather than change the role of existing unit so you now would have MULTIPLE warhound equilavents.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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There is a simply reason to it, Nauts are cheaper to get and easier to place on the table and therefore would make more sense to be fielded like (smaller) Knights while the Stompa would be in between the Knight and the Warhound (as some of the FW Knights are).

But until Orks don't get the Imperium treatment (a Codex for each sub-faction and a supplement for each clan) we won't see the possibility of a Knight style army.

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tneva82 wrote:
Naut is new invention. Stompa has always been not even close to titan level. That's why you could field like half a dozen against warhound. It's only recently on 40k where it suddenly artificially got upped in size.

It's basically land raider on legs and choppity chop sword. Frankly even super heavy is pushing it. You don't run formations of nearly dozen super heavies. Orks have gargants for titan level.

Stompa has never been warhound equilavent. why you are trying to make it one? Use the actual warhound equilavents orks have rather than change the role of existing unit so you now would have MULTIPLE warhound equilavents.


What's the model of the ork gargant? The big squiggoth? A stompa looks way more intimidating and killy though, both in aesthetics and datasheet. Are there any official rules of a real gargant anyway?

Ork land raider is the battlewagon, not nauts or the stompa. Nauts are very close to knights, both in size/unit type but also datasheets. They're just more fragile, cheap and worse in shooting (but not by a lot in all fieds) as all orks units should be a bit worse but cheaper comparing to their imperium equivalents, except in combat.

I'm trying to make the stompa a warhound equivalent since it's the same size and with 3 other types of walkers we don't need another "standard" walker in our games but a titan equivalent could be very cool for real apocalypse games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 09:18:00


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But until Orks don't get the Imperium treatment (a Codex for each sub-faction and a supplement for each clan) we won't see the possibility of a Knight style army.


I feel obliged to note you say "Imperium" but you're talking Space Marines. There's not a Cadia codex supplement, and a catachen codex. just for example.

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 Blackie wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Naut is new invention. Stompa has always been not even close to titan level. That's why you could field like half a dozen against warhound. It's only recently on 40k where it suddenly artificially got upped in size.

It's basically land raider on legs and choppity chop sword. Frankly even super heavy is pushing it. You don't run formations of nearly dozen super heavies. Orks have gargants for titan level.

Stompa has never been warhound equilavent. why you are trying to make it one? Use the actual warhound equilavents orks have rather than change the role of existing unit so you now would have MULTIPLE warhound equilavents.


What's the model of the ork gargant? The big squiggoth? A stompa looks way more intimidating and killy though, both in aesthetics and datasheet. Are there any official rules of a real gargant anyway?

Ork land raider is the battlewagon, not nauts or the stompa. Nauts are very close to knights, both in size/unit type but also datasheets. They're just more fragile, cheap and worse in shooting (but not by a lot in all fieds) as all orks units should be a bit worse but cheaper comparing to their imperium equivalents, except in combat.

I'm trying to make the stompa a warhound equivalent since it's the same size and with 3 other types of walkers we don't need another "standard" walker in our games but a titan equivalent could be very cool for real apocalypse games.


Check your ork history. As said stompa as big warhound equilavent is new invention. Stompa's original role was more of walking land raider. Same survivability for starters. And you could field like dozen compared to titans.

Ork's don't currently HAVE actual titan equilavent model for 40k and good riddance. They don't work in 40k at all being either auto lose or auto win(auto win if opponent brings one as well and you go first. Otherwise you lose. Period. You bring warlord and opponent doesn't bring titan? Congrats. You lost. Opponent doesn't even have to shoot once).

Stompa shouldn't be warhound equilavent. It's not it's role. Orks have separate vehicles for that. Orks don't need multiple warhound equilavents and besides all warhound level machines are automatic losses. Including warhound. We don't need multiple models you can't field because you automatically lose. Just look at the stompa. You CAN'T make it warhound equilavent and actually have it be worthwhile. If it's around 600 pts it's not warhound equilavent(remember warhound is 2000 pts). If it's around 1000 pts level you can't have anywhere sensible rules that aren't either automatic loss or automatic win. Both are bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 10:03:29


https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
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I seem to recall that the Warhound equivalent in the Epic days was the Slasha Gargant, but I could be wrong on that.

Stompas were the equivalent to the Knight Paladin, and they both formed the "small" troops section in the old Titan Legions boxed set.

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 Dysartes wrote:
I seem to recall that the Warhound equivalent in the Epic days was the Slasha Gargant, but I could be wrong on that.

Stompas were the equivalent to the Knight Paladin, and they both formed the "small" troops section in the old Titan Legions boxed set.

Yeah I think that's how I remember it. Always wanted one of those gargant models as a kid.
   
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Even in previous edition, as stompa was never in the same weight class as the warhound.
A stompa is somewhere near the baneblade, lord of skulls, castellan or daemon primarch tier, and should be costed as such.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Italy

tneva82 wrote:


Check your ork history. As said stompa as big warhound equilavent is new invention. Stompa's original role was more of walking land raider. Same survivability for starters. And you could field like dozen compared to titans.


Well things change. Something that has been written ages ago could not reflect the current state of 40k. Maybe Stompas were intended to be mobile land raiders 20 years ago but with battlewagons and nauts there's no need of such unit anymore. And even the current stompa's datasheet has nothing in common with a land raider.

tneva82 wrote:

Ork's don't currently HAVE actual titan equilavent model for 40k and good riddance. They don't work in 40k at all being either auto lose or auto win(auto win if opponent brings one as well and you go first.


Well, what's the point of an imperium titan then? Of course it doesn't work in 40k and good riddance. Models such those are meant for 10k+ games or something like that.

tneva82 wrote:

Stompa shouldn't be warhound equilavent. It's not it's role. Orks have separate vehicles for that. Orks don't need multiple warhound equilavents and besides all warhound level machines are automatic losses. Including warhound. We don't need multiple models you can't field because you automatically lose. Just look at the stompa. You CAN'T make it warhound equilavent and actually have it be worthwhile. If it's around 600 pts it's not warhound equilavent(remember warhound is 2000 pts). If it's around 1000 pts level you can't have anywhere sensible rules that aren't either automatic loss or automatic win. Both are bad.


Well, it's not its role to be a land raider either. A land raider is basically a transport with some supporting firepower, a stompa is a gigantic tool of mass destruction. At that point just bring the full kitted BW for that role.

Truth is a model like the stompa doesn't really have a purpose at the moment. You could make him significantly cheaper, that's an option, but what would you have then? For 600 points why just not taking two nauts instead? Or you could re-write its datasheet to make it an apocalypse games fun tool, like the warhound. A 1200ish point ork titan could definitely work if a 2000 points warhound does. But of course we wouldn't talk about standard 40k games, where such things shouldn't exist. We already have several other things that are the separate vehicles to counter titans, but not an actual gargant model or ruleset. The stompa model fits the gargant's dimensions and could take a role that is currently vacant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Even in previous edition, as stompa was never in the same weight class as the warhound.
A stompa is somewhere near the baneblade, lord of skulls, castellan or daemon primarch tier, and should be costed as such.


Maybe in the lore, just take a look at my previous post, the one with the size comparison. The stompa is exactly as big as the warhound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 11:42:53


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 Blackie wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Even in previous edition, as stompa was never in the same weight class as the warhound.
A stompa is somewhere near the baneblade, lord of skulls, castellan or daemon primarch tier, and should be costed as such.


Maybe in the lore, just take a look at my previous post, the one with the size comparison. The stompa is exactly as big as the warhound.


Lore and rules. But as we know, GW makes all models true to scale, so the height of two models trump lore and rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
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 Jidmah wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Even in previous edition, as stompa was never in the same weight class as the warhound.
A stompa is somewhere near the baneblade, lord of skulls, castellan or daemon primarch tier, and should be costed as such.


Maybe in the lore, just take a look at my previous post, the one with the size comparison. The stompa is exactly as big as the warhound.


Lore and rules. But as we know, GW makes all models true to scale, so the height of two models trump lore and rules.

Right. Look at a spartan next to a land raider. Tell me it can hold two and a half times the troops as the land raider. Hell tell me it could hold 25 marines period.

Gw doesn't make all its models to true scale.

Stompas are equivalent to knights and should be costed accordingly.

You just don't like low in 40k and will argue whatever it takes to get them costed out of the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 12:12:04


 
   
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Jidmah is right in the fact that GW puts rules for models based in size. Just compare the change in rules of Greater Demons when they gained the new giant models.

A Stompa will never be a Knight equivalent when the model is nearly twice the size. Thats just how GW writtes rules. Is more sensible (Because is more probable ot happen) to ask for an usable stompa at the 700-800 point bracket than ask for a 450-550 point stompa as a knight equivalent.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, a lot of the Ork stuff can be summed up as "we didn't sell as many of those buggies as we wanted".

So i am not the only one thinking that


What? But buggies were explained as

*Checks Great Games Workshop Rules Imbalance Conspiracy Flowchart*

"Games Workshop knew they'd sell so they gave them crap rules on purpose since they were a Sure Thing!"

HOW could bad rules have POSSIBLY affected their sales figures???
   
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Sorry, but I was being sarcastic.
Obviously GW doesn't give a damn about size when designing rules and vice versa, especially when you compare FW to GW plastic.
Put a leviathan next to a contemptor when in doubt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 12:56:16


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

But you can't compare FW to GW because they hate each other. You need to compare GW to GW.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but I was being sarcastic.
Obviously GW doesn't give a damn about size when designing rules and vice versa, especially when you compare FW to GW plastic.
Put a leviathan next to a contemptor when in doubt.

I thought that was obvious. Seriously folks try to get 10 marines in a rhino.
   
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Or 10 MANz in a battlewagon

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

BrianDavion wrote:
But until Orks don't get the Imperium treatment (a Codex for each sub-faction and a supplement for each clan) we won't see the possibility of a Knight style army.

I feel obliged to note you say "Imperium" but you're talking Space Marines. There's not a Cadia codex supplement, and a catachen codex. just for example.


Imperium is the main Keyword and Faction
Just because Orks don't have as many Codex and Supplements as Imperium has, does not change that. Otherwise the question should be why Knights are not a Mechanicus or AM Supplement as Stompas should be an Ork Supplement (instead of a full Stompa Codex with the Ork Keyword)

If GW wanted, there could be as many Codex books for Orks, Elder, Tyranids and Tau as there are for Imperium. Comparing Orks only to Space Marines when there is so much more than Meganobz from different Clans

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realistically theres only 3 knight models they just have several different dataslates....because reasons. They could very easily take the chassis of the Stompa and just make new arms for it and do the same thing. Heck they could take all the walkers and turn them into the "Dread Waaagh!" supplement.

I own both a knight and a stompa. Stompa is absolutely massive, almost literally twice the size of a knight (if i had to put it into specifics, probably 7/8ths larger). It should not be 2/3 a knight, it should be 1/3 to 1/2 greater than a knight since it was originally a mini-titan.
Lot of people in my area like to call knights mini-titans for some reason...they arent. The only thing they have to claim that over a Baneblade or Killtank is they are walkers.

The transport part of it is kinda pointless and its aura is a joke being a reroll when it used to be fearless. What ork unit makes a morale test that they can have any hope of passing? i either autopass thanks to still being a big mob or auto-all-flee because i lost 20 models and i have 10 left, no die roll affects that result.

Comparing the stats (ignoring points) its technically about right. Its basically a Gallant and Crusader merged into one in terms of offensive capability, but given Orky BS so its shooting is unreliable and not quite double wounds and no invul on top of slightly better melee.
But its priced like it is those two merged, when they are weakened enough to not be quite both at the same time. Not to mention theres the issue of two targets are better than one.

Also, if a stompa is supposed to be 2/3 a knight then what the heck is the Naut? I run both nauts and knights commonly, they feel roughly the same with the Naut being obviously a bit weaker. But i actually LIKE that, because its not a LoW i can very easily sneak it into a ton of lists and not require 3 HQs i probably dont have after filling the reqs for 2bats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/03 15:07:48


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