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RiTides wrote:Showcase is throwing in a free rulebook with the starter

Nice 'discount', one way of beating the 10% limit; oh, and....

16 days to go

Also: pre-order window closes on Monday. Get your orders in or you may Get your minis later rather than sooner.

Had a few more things sell thanks to DCMs, so I put in a separate Miniature Market order for:

-Rulebook
-Another DESOLATOR
-4 Intruder Beta light dropships, and the 8 prowlers and 8 minders to go in them
-3 more Hunter tanks, 3 more Reaper AA tanks, and 2 Slayer Heavy tanks (with the razor worms to go in them, looks like I'll have extra now) to fill out the dropships that came in the Mega set, since apparently you can't field them partially empty (to avoid dropship spam).

I think it's safe to say, I'm all in! And really looking forward to this . All the other guys interested (4 of them) at my game store have preordered, as well (a few from Warstore/Miniature Market, the others direct) for PHR/Shaltari/UCM. Now we just have to find (or more likely, make) some buildings, and get some n-scale terrain.

I think right now the best solution is that print out terrain. It has th best look IMO as most I'd the n-scale stuff I've found just doesn't fit with the aesthetic.

RiTides wrote:Had a few more things sell thanks to DCMs, so I put in a separate Miniature Market order for:

-Rulebook
-Another DESOLATOR
-4 Intruder Beta light dropships, and the 8 prowlers and 8 minders to go in them
-3 more Hunter tanks, 3 more Reaper AA tanks, and 2 Slayer Heavy tanks (with the razor worms to go in them, looks like I'll have extra now) to fill out the dropships that came in the Mega set, since apparently you can't field them partially empty (to avoid dropship spam).

I think it's safe to say, I'm all in! And really looking forward to this . All the other guys interested (4 of them) at my game store have preordered, as well (a few from Warstore/Miniature Market, the others direct) for PHR/Shaltari/UCM. Now we just have to find (or more likely, make) some buildings, and get some n-scale terrain.

I want a UCM mega and starter deal plus a second pair of Ravens, four more Wolverines and two more Archangels.

However I am sticking with a starter and rulebook for now, will look at the rulebook to see what else I want. I am reluctant to buy too much over the mega until I see the army lists. I think you might be taking a risk with a second Desolator, they might be 0-1 either directly or due to points cost.

It would be nice to know, but I guess we will in...16 days?

I can wait!

Where all I have pre-ordered is the rule book because the War Store doesn't ship until August. I'll just geek over the book from Hawk until the warstore start shipping and I'll preorder the rest.

Stra-t-ger-e I has it

Orlanth- that may well be, but as the only person getting Scourge at the local store, adding those extras gives me enough items to split the force in 2 and have about the same number of models as the large forces... basically, to loan half to a friend to play with and get sucked into the game with

I figured they'd want a command vehicle if I did so. However, the text on the page does imply that more than one desolator could Possibly be used in one force... and if so, so much the better!

Would 15mm scenery work with this game as i can't find any 10 mm scenery anywhere. Or we'll just have to wait for the buildings that Hawkwargames is bringing out later this year.
found this stuff in 15 mm... http://www.4ground.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=302

15mm is 50% out of scale, it might work fit for faceless office blocks, not for scale identifiable structures like housing. Only the church will fit in (upgrades to cathedral) and that still would need to be remodeled. I wouldnt buy 15mm for Dropzone Commander if I were you.

15 days to go.

15mm often is way too big.

Hmmm, i'll just wait till Dave brings out the 10mm scenery then

This has been addressed a few times....

15mm terrain in 10mm is fine if you stick to military structures, sci-fi type bunkers and industrial terrain.

Most of the terrain people are looking at is historical stuff which doesn't translate well. For those kind of buildings, stick to 10mm and N scale. However, the kinds of things I listed above work fine for 10 and 15mm.

Go here and scroll down a couple pics and you'll see 10mm miniatures along side 15mm terrain (in tan) and 10mm terrain (in grey),
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/446566.page#4384861
YMMV, but I think it looks just fine.

Go here for links to some of the currently avaialble 15mm sci-fi terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1290/446566.page#4461994

14 days to go

Well, I've fired emails off to Hawk Wargames twice in the last two-three weeks about the VAT question, and I never did get a response. I'd have been happy if the difference was being used to subsidize shipping if they'd only say so (and I said as much in my second message) but the lack of response is a huge turn-off.

In fact, this silence in response to my inquiries has had the direct result of decreasing my interest in this game. I was prepared to spend a substantial amount of money on it and had £250 sitting in my Paypal account waiting to spend on my first army after flogging off a bunch of stuff on eBay. Now I think I'll just wait and see. If people think the game's as good as I was hoping maybe I'll take a look at it again in the future, but for now I'm certainly out. :(

I'm not sure you'll find many companies willing to give you a detailed breakdown of their business practices or pricing policies, no matter how many theoretical sales they might gain by doing so

I have to admit though that as a US based customer, I've always wondered about the whole VAT thing when buying stuff from the UK.

It certainly can't hurt sales to explain what's going on VAT-wise for non-UK customers, can it?

Charax, I wasn't asking in the theoretical. I was asking about the order I was hoping to place. I don't think it takes a genius to figure the business practice of a VAT-registered company not deducting VAT on ROW orders is to pocket the difference.

I offered Hawk a nice face-saving alternative to that conclusion (subsidized shipping) but they didn't want to take it. They even could have offered something placating like "we'd not thought about this, we'll get back to you." The only conclusion I'm left with is that Hawk would prefer to scalp ignorant foreign customers (in the same vein as Forge World).

Make of that what you will, but these "business practices" aren't exactly trade secrets or rocket science, and there are only a few limited possible reasons for not deducting the VAT on foreign orders. Frankly, I'm not willing to pay that 20%: it's a hundred and sixty-some quid if I'm buying all four armies, an order size that'd be sure to cop import duties when it arrived here too.

Finally, transparency in these kinds of business practices IS required by many companies doing business today. I work in procurement so I'm no stranger to cost breakdown requests.

angryboy2k wrote:Charax, I wasn't asking in the theoretical. I was asking about the order I was hoping to place.

Did you actually place the order? No? Then it's a theoretical sale. As far as the business is concerned, they have no way of knowing whether you'd make the order or not. There's precisely zero guarantee that, if they responded to your email, they'd make a genuine sale, so it's theoretical.

angryboy2k wrote: I don't think it takes a genius to figure the business practice of a VAT-registered company not deducting VAT on ROW orders is to pocket the difference.

I offered Hawk a nice face-saving alternative to that conclusion (subsidized shipping) but they didn't want to take it. They even could have offered something placating like "we'd not thought about this, we'll get back to you." The only conclusion I'm left with is that Hawk would prefer to scalp ignorant foreign customers (in the same vein as Forge World).

Really? that's your only conclusion? not "They're too busy right now to respond to queries not directly related to an actual, placed order", or "They don't particularly feel like opening their financials to you", the only conclusion you can possibly reach is that they're scamming foreign customers? You do not have much of an imagination, do you?

angryboy2k wrote:Make of that what you will, but these "business practices" aren't exactly trade secrets or rocket science, and there are only a few limited possible reasons for not deducting the VAT on foreign orders. Frankly, I'm not willing to pay that 20%: it's a hundred and sixty-some quid if I'm buying all four armies, an order size that'd be sure to cop import duties when it arrived here too.

Oh it definitely happens, and it may even be happening with Hawk, but they're under precisely zero obligation to tell you details of their pricing scheme and holding X amount of potential future orders over their head is just crass and pointless. If you're willing to make an order worth several hundred pounds then you've already factored in the current pricing, how they reach that pricing is somewhat irrelevant - the quality of the miniatures isn't going to change, the quality of the rules isn't going to change and the pricing sure as hell isn't going to change, so your reasoning basically boils down to "I have determined that I am willing to pay the price you are asking for your products (otherwise I wouldn't keep mentioning these massive orders I intend to apparently make) but if your prices were not arrived at in a way I deem to be acceptable, I shall not buy them" - evidently the actual pricing doesn't matter to you, because you mention that if the extra cost goes to subsidise shipping you're fine with it.

This is, of course, fine - it's your money, you can spend or not spend it in any way you wish, by whatever criteria you like - but wanting to know whether VAT has been factored into overseas pricing is a valid question whether you were making an order or not, throwing a hypothetical order in there changes the tone of the whole thing to one where you are withholding your potential future order until your questions are answered - if I were in their position, I wouldn't dignify those tactics with a response - and they haven't. A few hundred pounds of order in the balance isn't that great a persuasive factor given the unexpected demand DzC has apparently generated.

angryboy2k wrote:Finally, transparency in these kinds of business practices IS required by many companies doing business today. I work in procurement so I'm no stranger to cost breakdown requests.

Ah, the Argumentum ad verecerandum, staple of internet posting. The company in this case is Hawk Wargames, which is currently one person, if his corporate policy required transparency on these types of requests, you'd have your answer - it's not like he can claim ignorance of such a policy if it's just him. So evidently there's no company policy requiring transparency, there's no legal requirement to transparency, so what are you left with?

"Tell me or you won't get my money"

Alpharius wrote:I have to admit though that as a US based customer, I've always wondered about the whole VAT thing when buying stuff from the UK.

It certainly can't hurt sales to explain what's going on VAT-wise for non-UK customers, can it?

It's quite simple, any company that charges you VAT is doing so illegally. It would also be a rather risky thing to do as the UK government is cracking down on it at the moment, with the prospect of massive fines, and having worked for a company that ships internationally I know first hand how fastidious the revenue people are at checking off supposed international sales against travel dockets - the two have to be matched up together.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to order through one of the bigger international sellers, like Maelstrom or Wayland. If you are ordering outside of the UK, then they should provide you with an invoice with the prices broken down. As the RRP listed on the Wayland/Maelstrom is inclusive of VAT, then for orders outside of the UK you should have 20% deducted - I know this for a fact having ordered while living outside of the UK previously. Of course you will have to pay for international shipping, and there is the possibility of customs in your own country adding tax, but this will be somewhat mitigated by having the initial 20% knocked off the original price (so I'm guessing starter packs will be priced at about £50 rather than £68 etc.)

hawk is likely to be very busy right now, I wont read anything into the lack of replies.
If the issue causes worry, delay your order until a later time. Most gamers here will have other ways to spend their time without having to leave the hobby to do so.

13 days to go

Charax, you've made a lot of assumptions and while I guess Dave is perhaps your friend or you've been involved with playtesting and so you feel compelled to defend him, your post borders on attacking me personally. I'll reply later when I'm not on a phone, but for now I'll just say I feel you're being deliberately obtuse; I wasn't asking him for detailed financial records, it was a simple question as to why I'm being charged VAT.

angryboy2k wrote:Charax, you've made a lot of assumptions and while I guess Dave is perhaps your friend or you've been involved with playtesting and so you feel compelled to defend him

That's very, very ironic.

For the record, the closest I've gotten to Dave is asking him a few questions in the livechat and seeing him in passing at Salute (booth was too busy to actually talk to him). Oh, and the exchange of money for goods (I bought the rulebook and the Scourge card deck, if you're that interested in transparency)

and no, not involved in playtesting at all, I don't even know what the statlines look like.

Your guess isn't very good

angryboy2k wrote:Charax, you've made a lot of assumptions and while I guess Dave is perhaps your friend or you've been involved with playtesting and so you feel compelled to defend him, your post borders on attacking me personally. I'll reply later when I'm not on a phone, but for now I'll just say I feel you're being deliberately obtuse; I wasn't asking him for detailed financial records, it was a simple question as to why I'm being charged VAT.

Angryboy, are you ordering from Taiwan? Sorry, my flag-knowledge is terrible! This should hopefully be helpful to anyone concerned about the VAT issue.

If you are outside the EU, a way around this would just be to order from Maelstrom or the like. Taking that company as an example, it says on their FAQ page:

DO YOU APPLY VAT TO MY ORDERS?
If you live within the UK or EU, all our prices are inclusive of VAT at 17.5%. Any invoice e-mails you receive from us will reflect this. If you require our VAT number, this can be supplied on request.

Therefore, outside the EU = you deduct 17.5% from the price.
Perhaps call or write to them first, just to make sure, but you should be paying 17.5% less than the price listed on their website. If you pay VAT for it, then the company is acting illegally.

Even if a company is relying on their international customers not being aware of VAT (and because of this and other threads, I am building up a picture that Forge World might be doing this), then it would be a stupid company indeed that admitted to it, as HMRC will come down on them like a sack of bricks.

Pacific wrote:

DO YOU APPLY VAT TO MY ORDERS?
If you live within the UK or EU, all our prices are inclusive of VAT at 17.5%. Any invoice e-mails you receive from us will reflect this. If you require our VAT number, this can be supplied on request.

Therefore, outside the EU = you deduct 17.5% from the price.
Perhaps call or write to them first, just to make sure, but you should be paying 17.5% less than the price listed on their website. If you pay VAT for it, then the company is acting illegally.

This looks like it might get ugly when Maelstrom buy units to retail at £220 (talking about just mega deals for now) and sells them abroad, deducts the VAT, and then tries to offset the loss from Hawk.

Orlanth wrote:

Pacific wrote:

DO YOU APPLY VAT TO MY ORDERS?
If you live within the UK or EU, all our prices are inclusive of VAT at 17.5%. Any invoice e-mails you receive from us will reflect this. If you require our VAT number, this can be supplied on request.

Therefore, outside the EU = you deduct 17.5% from the price.
Perhaps call or write to them first, just to make sure, but you should be paying 17.5% less than the price listed on their website. If you pay VAT for it, then the company is acting illegally.

This looks like it might get ugly when Maelstrom buy units to retail at £220 (talking about just mega deals for now) and sells them abroad, deducts the VAT, and then tries to offset the loss from Hawk.

a) The mega-deals are Hawk exclusive.

b) Wouldn't Maelstrom have not paid the VAT anyway? I thought that's how companies operated.

Just a thought, but do we actually know if the prices include VAT? You don't have to register or charge VAT unless your annual sales are more than the registration threshold, which is currently £77,000. I can't see any mention of VAT on the site. It's entirely possible Hawk isn't registered, as he obviously doesn't have that much turnover yet. Maybe he's not actually registered yet, and hasn't actually thought about it.

Charax wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:Charax, I wasn't asking in the theoretical. I was asking about the order I was hoping to place.

Did you actually place the order? No? Then it's a theoretical sale. As far as the business is concerned, they have no way of knowing whether you'd make the order or not. There's precisely zero guarantee that, if they responded to your email, they'd make a genuine sale, so it's theoretical.

Okay, pedantry wins (you did mention theoretical saleS - plural - and I was only talking about my own admittedly theoretical purchase). In any event, by failing to respond, they've guaranteed that *I* won't make a purchase.

Charax wrote:

angryboy2k wrote: I don't think it takes a genius to figure the business practice of a VAT-registered company not deducting VAT on ROW orders is to pocket the difference.

I offered Hawk a nice face-saving alternative to that conclusion (subsidized shipping) but they didn't want to take it. They even could have offered something placating like "we'd not thought about this, we'll get back to you." The only conclusion I'm left with is that Hawk would prefer to scalp ignorant foreign customers (in the same vein as Forge World).

Really? that's your only conclusion? not "They're too busy right now to respond to queries not directly related to an actual, placed order", or "They don't particularly feel like opening their financials to you", the only conclusion you can possibly reach is that they're scamming foreign customers? You do not have much of an imagination, do you?

No, aside from my messages all being filtered into their spambox, the other conclusion I can reach is that they're just plain rude - like you. And I never asked them to open their financials; someone blessed with your vast imagination should see that there's a massive difference between asking Hawk details of their raw material costs, labor costs, profit margins on various lines etc. and whether or not they charge VAT on foreign orders. I don't see what's so egregious about not wanting to pay what's effectively a spite tax for living out of the country - and going by what you said further below neither do you. As for too busy to respond to queries... well that just reinforces my decision not to buy. If he's too busy to respond he either shouldn't list his email address or he should hire someone to do the responding.

Charax wrote:
Oh it definitely happens, and it may even be happening with Hawk, but they're under precisely zero obligation to tell you details of their pricing scheme and holding X amount of potential future orders over their head is just crass and pointless. If you're willing to make an order worth several hundred pounds then you've already factored in the current pricing, how they reach that pricing is somewhat irrelevant - the quality of the miniatures isn't going to change, the quality of the rules isn't going to change and the pricing sure as hell isn't going to change, so your reasoning basically boils down to "I have determined that I am willing to pay the price you are asking for your products (otherwise I wouldn't keep mentioning these massive orders I intend to apparently make) but if your prices were not arrived at in a way I deem to be acceptable, I shall not buy them" - evidently the actual pricing doesn't matter to you, because you mention that if the extra cost goes to subsidise shipping you're fine with it.

I don't think they're under any obligation, and I didn't actually go in holding my order over their head. I don't believe I said I did. I told them I was interested in ordering, and I asked about the VAT. As I mentioned, I asked if the difference would be used to subsidize shipping which at the very least would be a reasonable answer (although to be honest if 250 quid's worth of light resin costs GBP40 to post to Taiwan I'll eat my own ass).

For what it's worth, and I may have dreamt this as I was initially so excited over DZC, I actually thought I'd read somewhere that prices where VAT-inclusive, but when I came to place my order I couldn't find any such text on the site. The best I could find was that Hawk is VAT-registered and that product shipped within the EU would likely not incur duties (the implication being that prices are VAT-inclusive though no such text exists on the site). I sent them a message asking to clarify and got no response. Around a week later I sent another message and still had no response.

Summary: I misled myself into thinking that prices were less than they really are, and in so doing I set myself up for disappointment when I didn't get any reply about VAT. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized I didn't want to pay this spite tax. It's another reason I'll never order from Forge World again (their gak quality is another problem altogether).

Charax wrote:
This is, of course, fine - it's your money, you can spend or not spend it in any way you wish, by whatever criteria you like - but wanting to know whether VAT has been factored into overseas pricing is a valid question whether you were making an order or not, throwing a hypothetical order in there changes the tone of the whole thing to one where you are withholding your potential future order until your questions are answered - if I were in their position, I wouldn't dignify those tactics with a response - and they haven't.

So now you think it's a valid question, but you assumed that I went in there like an infant with threats and it's not what I did.

Charax wrote:
A few hundred pounds of order in the balance isn't that great a persuasive factor given the unexpected demand DzC has apparently generated.

I guess it's good for them that they're so hugely successful that they don't need to catch every customer that asks them legitimate questions. And good for you that you're not trying to run a business either.

Charax wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:Finally, transparency in these kinds of business practices IS required by many companies doing business today. I work in procurement so I'm no stranger to cost breakdown requests.

Ah, the Argumentum ad verecerandum, staple of internet posting.

That's pathetic, Charax, and apparently another attempt to insult me.

Charax wrote:
The company in this case is Hawk Wargames, which is currently one person, if his corporate policy required transparency on these types of requests, you'd have your answer - it's not like he can claim ignorance of such a policy if it's just him. So evidently there's no company policy requiring transparency, there's no legal requirement to transparency,

My "argumentum ad verecerandum" was specifically in response to your post above in which you mentioned COMPANIES - I assumed you weren't talking about Hawk Wargames but now that you've chosen to ignore your original post (i.e. the one I was answering), I'm forced to go round in an effing circle by way of answer. Here's your post again:

Charax wrote:I'm not sure you'll find many companies willing to give you a detailed breakdown of their business practices or pricing policies, no matter how many theoretical sales they might gain by doing so

My fairly light response to this - which sadly was completely secondary to the point at hand and had I realized you'd do this I'd never have mentioned it - was merely to point out that companies (other companies, not Hawk Wargames) do in fact give out detailed breakdowns of their business practices and pricing policies - and in fact it's common in many industries. Not that it means that I want details from Hawk about his financials, nor anything else beyond my original question of VAT, nor does it mean that he has an obligation to give me any kind of breakdowns. (I don't know how many more disclaimers I should add to this before you'll understand why I bothered saying what I said).

Charax wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:Charax, you've made a lot of assumptions and while I guess Dave is perhaps your friend or you've been involved with playtesting and so you feel compelled to defend him

That's very, very ironic.

For the record, the closest I've gotten to Dave is asking him a few questions in the livechat and seeing him in passing at Salute (booth was too busy to actually talk to him). Oh, and the exchange of money for goods (I bought the rulebook and the Scourge card deck, if you're that interested in transparency)

and no, not involved in playtesting at all, I don't even know what the statlines look like.

Your guess isn't very good

I love a bit of irony. Please accept my utterly insincere apologies for my poor guesswork. Can I have some of the same in return?

Pacific wrote:

Angryboy, are you ordering from Taiwan? Sorry, my flag-knowledge is terrible! This should hopefully be helpful to anyone concerned about the VAT issue.

If you are outside the EU, a way around this would just be to order from Maelstrom or the like. Taking that company as an example, it says on their FAQ page:

DO YOU APPLY VAT TO MY ORDERS?
If you live within the UK or EU, all our prices are inclusive of VAT at 17.5%. Any invoice e-mails you receive from us will reflect this. If you require our VAT number, this can be supplied on request.

Therefore, outside the EU = you deduct 17.5% from the price.
Perhaps call or write to them first, just to make sure, but you should be paying 17.5% less than the price listed on their website. If you pay VAT for it, then the company is acting illegally.

Even if a company is relying on their international customers not being aware of VAT (and because of this and other threads, I am building up a picture that Forge World might be doing this), then it would be a stupid company indeed that admitted to it, as HMRC will come down on them like a sack of bricks.

Taiwan, yes. And VAT in the UK is 20%, so I'd be deducting 16.67% from the price.

I think Wayland deducts VAT but then charges shipping. Maelstrom IIRC doesn't deduct VAT from foreign orders but their shipping is free and the difference is used to pay for shipping.

I don't see how it's illegal. All you need to do is to keep a separate list of sales for overseas when you're filing your taxes. For example, Item A sells for GBP120. If you've sold it to someone in the EU, you owe the taxman 20 pounds. If you've sold it to someone outside the EU, you owe him nothing, because items exported from the EU are not subject to VAT. Since the price you're selling at is not explicitly stated to include VAT, it's easy enough to simply claim you have differential pricing for different locations. Hell, Foundry used to be blatant about it, with a splash window asking your location when you first entered your website, and completely different prices for everything depending on where you lived (UK, EUR, USA/CAN, ROW).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pgmason wrote:Just a thought, but do we actually know if the prices include VAT? You don't have to register or charge VAT unless your annual sales are more than the registration threshold, which is currently £77,000. I can't see any mention of VAT on the site. It's entirely possible Hawk isn't registered, as he obviously doesn't have that much turnover yet. Maybe he's not actually registered yet, and hasn't actually thought about it.

Another answer I'd have been fine with.

His site says Hawk's VAT-registered, but the number isn't given.

Never mind, ninja'd.

@Charax

Actually, anyone ignoring some extra hundred pounds is an financial idiot, no matter how big the company is. And start-ups do need every cent they can get.

@VAT
That needs to be changed quickly or some internet lawyers can get really nasty when they discover it is missing. And if the tax guys find out....