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it doesn't matter how great or rubbsh it is.

You will see LOADS of them in the next few weeks becasue they are the new shiny thing to have.

A lot of people might use the excuse "it's gonna be even better after 6th comes out".

No, you dont know that, dont base an arguement on guess-work. You got it because it was new and shiny and you wanted one.

labmouse42 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

The thing that makes the storm talon edge out here is that it comes in with reserve with your bikes. What happens when your attack bikes come in on turn 2, and your troop bikes come in on turn 3? Your attack bikes die horribly to ML spam or psydreads. When there is so much STR 8 in the meta today, doubling out attack bikes is very easy.

As opposed to penning an av11 flyer..? One would think missile launchers would do the job regardless.

I suggest looking at the 'Escort Craft' rule. It prevents your stormtalon from coming in a turn before or after your bikes.

Alright, and you'll get the chance to pop a 35 point rhino with a 130-155 legless exosquad suit followed by those same missiles shooting it out of the sky. It's not a good transport popper because it's too valuable and vulnerable to do it reliably more than once and it's too costly to be a suicide unit.

How does your proposal of attack bikes any different?

You need multiple ones to get a reasonable chance of popping that '35 point rhino', so the cost is not much different.

Distribution of targets, one psyfleman can't take out all three. They're also similarly armored to the bikes they're accompanying and have a similar profile on the board making them much better at forcing your opponents to split fire. They're much easier to get cover with as well. Neither is a great unit for transport popping in an emergency when your army flanked at a bad time, but thats a bad situation in general. It's unsafe by design. You can have 5 more bikes with another multimelta and fist for the cost of an upgraded ST. The thing is just too costly.

Tigerone wrote:

Harry wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Funny, when the thread openedthe first posts were saying it was lies. Then sketches came in and people called bullgak. Then WD PICS!!! Everyone was like "OMG its real!"

Yes I found that funny too. You know what else is funny ... not one of the people calling be a liar take the time to post to say sorry for being a ****.

Harry go back to warseer dakka is kinda like a monkey S#$t fight. Intersesting to watch untill you get some on you.

It wouldn't surprise me if Dakka was somewhat more cynical that other forums, but - apart from a few users who should be ignored or those with low post counts - Harry is very well respected on Dakka, as are the other reliable rumour mongers such as Hastings and Bramgaunt.

Ghost' and Stickmonkey though? Ehhh, significantly less so.

Ehsteve wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Deadshot wrote:
Escort rule allows you to get serious firepower at a point on the board at a crucial time without a seperate reserves roll, and outflanking scouts can put it right.at the enemy lines without reserve manipulation you could end up not turning up on the board at all. Land Speeder Scouts can outflank as well.

Coming in alongside another unit is quite a boon, as it splits your opponent's fire. Furthermore, we are comparing it to a Land Speeder, not a Land Speeder Storm, which doesn't carry anywhere near the same firepower and is BS3 and open-topped. To quote yourself: "make up your mind".

Furthermore, how would you not turn up on the board? You're guaranteed to come in on turn 5. I'd say bike armies would benefit greatly from the Stormtalon as it can provide supporting fire while keeping up with the bikers.

Splitting your opponents fire to an AV11 vehicle is not a smart idea. A razorback could do the exact same thing with a tactical squad (pile them in the razorback TLLC, enter from reserves) and it would work because the vehicle aspect would only cost you 75pts, easy to ignore if you lose it and you'll still get the 1 round of shooting you'd get from the Stormtalon. A Razorback gets 1-3ish shots depending on how you load it. a Talon Basic for 130pts gets 7 for 25pts more the HB turns into Autocannon missiles . . . hmmmmmmm useful? Mind you have it at extreme range at BS5 with 3 lovely shots and the capability to rush in and contest on the fly is quite entertaining to me.

So let's assume you do tag the Stormtalon along with a squad worth a damn:

So you're looking to keep at least 300pts off the board, meaning you're 1700 vs. his 2000 at best. Or 1450 vs. 1750.

So to make best use of the escort ability with the Stormtalon you need to escort an outflanking unit (a squad with Sicarius, Scouts, Khan bikes, Scout Bikes) in order to make it effective otherwise you're just keeping it at extreme range, negating it's effectiveness as a fast skimmer, in which case you should simply get a predator for a far cheaper cost/better AV. Otherwise you're boosting it in from Reserves in which case you're not shooting. A Land Speeder has exactly the same ability, only there's a chance the unit will turn up first or the Land Speeder will (name me a situation in which both a Stormtalon and another unit arriving on the board is essential to any sort of strategy).Hmmmmmm OH I KNOW!!!! To double contest an objective while Shrike comes in with a squad and gets it into CC and the Talon does its job, and when the Shrike squad likely finishes up the CC that turn. . . THEN the opponent will focus on the talon. OH and then there is the shock and awe factor that makes the opponent sink shot after shot until it is gone. See my actual post on this below the quote.

The only force which escort could possibly work with is as you said: bikes. Unfortunately, they don't need the Stormtalon, this does not augment the force in any conceivable manner. Again: Land speeders. More versitility, splitting the threat plus smaller (therefore easier to gain cover, easier to hide) on top of not having a dumb as hell looking model.

Yes yes yes your a Talon hater. . . . We completely understand. NOW since the Talon is likely going to only be considered a skimmer for ohhhh about the next month (once again from BoW rumors which seem to be on track at this time) This really wont matter very long but it needs to be done.

NOW let us look at my most FAVORITE (sarcasm) rule in 5th ed, "The Vehicle Damage Chart" Now while you go on and on and on and on on how bad it is. Tell me does the Damage chart effect it at this time? It is not Opened topped so no +1, it still gets +1 from AP1 (melta's and a couple of other things), now mention that AP1 needs to get into the Talon's area of effect with its weapons and we are looking at fun times. as for your missile launchers, they need range on it which it might not always have, same with preds but as you state preds are more heavily armoured right? But wait I have a question, since the preds have to get into range first (it we are paying the 155 for the SHML system and everything else) does that not mean that the Talon can just castle over a side and take LOVELY pot shots at Pred Side armour? Which is memory serves . . . Is that magical AV11. . . wait. . . is that not ripe for 3 Autocannon shots? Even at BS4 that's roughly 2 hits and 1 great pen/glance.) Vs the Preds ability of 1 las and 1 auto hit the las will pen 33.33& of the time and auto will pen 50%, but if the Pred had to move 12 to get into range then its not shooting (unless you play BA like I do and then your alright with a Autocannon shot that likely will fail). Then the sad news hits. . . you have to use the Vehicle damage chart. . . which as it stands means that the pred even with a glance will likely roll a 1/2, which effectivle cuts the Talon out a turn, BUT it is still alive. . . Ohh how your mighty Pred failed you.

Questions?

Lets sum this up in my opinion.

Ahem "I don't care what your S of your shot is, I dont care what your shooting at, if it is a vehicle your are 67% of the time NOT KILL IT! SO you will waste shot, after shot, after shot for NOTHING! and if you clance then you will not kill it until EVERY LAST WEAPON IS GONE! Now questions?"

Oh question for you Mr. Talon Hater, how do you enjoy the red?

This thread's getting a bit angry now.

Praxiss wrote:it doesn't matter how great or rubbsh it is.

You will see LOADS of them in the next few weeks becasue they are the new shiny thing to have.

A lot of people might use the excuse "it's gonna be even better after 6th comes out".

No, you dont know that, dont base an arguement on guess-work. You got it because it was new and shiny and you wanted one.

Exactly. Who knows what will happen in a month, rumors state that 6th will happen. . .I hope so. Just because I am getting sick of the belly aching over the Talon. I dont care since I dont get it. Will I see one or 2. Yes. Will I buy one for my Blood Falcons. Absolutely. Not to use, but for my EPIC diorama that is planned.

Could look pretty cool in a decent Armies on Parade.

Praxiss wrote:This thread's getting a bit angry now.

No, not angry, annoyed. There is how many pages of wasted space complaining about the Talon. This is not the forum for this, there is already a tactic discussion thread Here

Lets try and shift it away from talon-rage.

Has anyone bought the Scythe kit? Could someone post pics like the orks ones a few pages back?

Praxiss wrote:Could look pretty cool in a decent Armies on Parade.

You have no idea, I plan on having a Stormraven (With CHS extension kit) and Dreadnought, flanked by 2 Talons 1 up front, some trenches of IG below facing where the ravens are flying to. It will be muddy, desolate, and amazing! I am thinking of a second one as well. . . Which is a landing strip with a badly damaged Stormraven on the deck, with 2 Sang Noviates holding a stretcher between them with a wounded captain, and in the air a Talon providing an airpat. Oh I can see it in my head. . . .

Summer of Flyers, I see an Autumn of Hydras next

phantommaster wrote:Summer of Flyers, I see an Autumn of Hydras next

I thought this was the Year of the Hydra?

Lysenis wrote:

Praxiss wrote:Could look pretty cool in a decent Armies on Parade.

You have no idea, I plan on having a Stormraven (With CHS extension kit) and Dreadnought, flanked by 2 Talons 1 up front, some trenches of IG below facing where the ravens are flying to. It will be muddy, desolate, and amazing! I am thinking of a second one as well. . . Which is a landing strip with a badly damaged Stormraven on the deck, with 2 Sang Noviates holding a stretcher between them with a wounded captain, and in the air a Talon providing an airpat. Oh I can see it in my head. . . .

Sometimes I just hate myself when I get that kick of inspiration and you just know it is going to be far too expensive but you just have to do it. I have the most amazing conversion in mind, from this wave, that I can't even contemplate how much it is costing me.

Praxiss wrote:it doesn't matter how great or rubbsh it is.

[some more stuff]

You got it because it was new and shiny and you wanted one.

Thanks!

I like to model, HHhobby and paint. I really like this model (will change up the silly assault cannons), but dislike the stormraven, oddly enough. I'll be picking it up for my Crimson Fists. I don't know what role it will fill other than to look pretty. I like pretty. I also like the Wizard of Oz, so there you go.

I'm wondering when someone is going to Slave 1-ify it....

It'd look either pretty neat or terrible.

Compel wrote:I'm wondering when someone is going to Slave 1-ify it....

It'd look either pretty neat or terrible.

I really, really like this idea. I don't have the finances to back it up with a personal attempt, but I hope someone produces just the kind of conversion of which you speak.

What is all this 'HHHobby'? Does it mean anything?

Just people parodying GW's tendency to refer to it's own game as 'The Hobby' as if it was the only wargame out there.

*shrug*

They call it the hobby to avoid discriminating other wargames as they love and respect their competition. No competition, less sales.




No, they just use it as an umbrella term for all of their games and associated stuff.

cgage00 wrote:You were right. Stickmonkey still WRONG!!! Calling him a lair no you need to hav half a mind to be a lair. For those that don't remember his "summer of flyers". Here it is

stickmonkey wrote:SM here, I debated posting anything, but some others have persuaded me. I have just a few things for the rumored summer of fliers I first mentioned here.

Still rumored as July wd rule set
Apoc style rules, strafing/bombing runs, rapid insertion/extraction, special missions, dogfighting?
Thunder hawk is NOT likely
Codex based releases...
Dark eldar raven
Eldar night wing?
Ig hydra
Nid harpy
Non codex releases...
Ig thunderbolt
Csm hell blade
Tau remora
No necron release?
Ork fighta/bomma
No SM release?

Suspected non codex releases will only be rules...models already FW...

Necrons may get something with their codex.

Raven/night wing likely to be combined kit.

So that's pretty limited, 3 kits and wd rules. But it sounds like it's in the typical wheelhouse.

Probably disappointing news to many, but in light of some of the other speculation running I decided to put some info out.

So out of the 15 things in that rumor 3 happened

Ork fighter/bommer
No thunder hawk
Codex based release.
Oh and they released skimmers......

But yes Harry you were right and waited till there was real info to post.

Your reasoning is as flawed as your spelling. Let's see:
WD rule set? Check!
Strafing/bombing runs? Check!
Special missions? Check!
Thunder hawk is NOT likely? Check!
Dark eldar raven? Check!
Eldar night wing? Not yet, expected next year.
Nid harpy? Not yet, expected this year.
Necron release? Check!
Ork fighta/bomma? Check!
SM release? Check!
3 kits and wd rules? Check!
Other flyer rules? Not yet, expected for July.

Oh, and he was the first to be spot on with the Necron release date. And yes, predicting things 2-3 years in advance can be difficult, but someone has to do the job

Kroothawk wrote:

cgage00 wrote:You were right. Stickmonkey still WRONG!!! Calling him a lair no you need to hav half a mind to be a lair. For those that don't remember his "summer of flyers". Here it is

stickmonkey wrote:SM here, I debated posting anything, but some others have persuaded me. I have just a few things for the rumored summer of fliers I first mentioned here.

Still rumored as July wd rule set
Apoc style rules, strafing/bombing runs, rapid insertion/extraction, special missions, dogfighting?
Thunder hawk is NOT likely
Codex based releases...
Dark eldar raven
Eldar night wing?
Ig hydra
Nid harpy
Non codex releases...
Ig thunderbolt
Csm hell blade
Tau remora
No necron release?
Ork fighta/bomma
No SM release?

Suspected non codex releases will only be rules...models already FW...

Necrons may get something with their codex.

Raven/night wing likely to be combined kit.

So that's pretty limited, 3 kits and wd rules. But it sounds like it's in the typical wheelhouse.

Probably disappointing news to many, but in light of some of the other speculation running I decided to put some info out.

So out of the 15 things in that rumor 3 happened

Ork fighter/bommer
No thunder hawk
Codex based release.
Oh and they released skimmers......

But yes Harry you were right and waited till there was real info to post.

Your reasoning is as flawed as your spelling. Let's see:
WD rule set? Check!
Strafing/bombing runs? Check!
Special missions? Check!
Thunder hawk is NOT likely? Check!
Dark eldar raven? Check!
Eldar night wing? Not yet, expected next year.
Nid harpy? Not yet, expected this year.
Necron release? Check!
Ork fighta/bomma? Check!
SM release? Check!
3 kits and wd rules? Check!
Other flyer rules? Not yet, expected for July.

Oh, and he was the first to be spot on with the Necron release date. And yes, predicting things 2-3 years in advance can be difficult, but someone has to do the job

Actually SM does a good job. He usually always advises a pinch of salt since many things he states is a year or so out, but not always.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Deadshot wrote:
Escort rule allows you to get serious firepower at a point on the board at a crucial time without a seperate reserves roll, and outflanking scouts can put it right.at the enemy lines without reserve manipulation you could end up not turning up on the board at all. Land Speeder Scouts can outflank as well.

Coming in alongside another unit is quite a boon, as it splits your opponent's fire. Furthermore, we are comparing it to a Land Speeder, not a Land Speeder Storm, which doesn't carry anywhere near the same firepower and is BS3 and open-topped. To quote yourself: "make up your mind".

Furthermore, how would you not turn up on the board? You're guaranteed to come in on turn 5. I'd say bike armies would benefit greatly from the Stormtalon as it can provide supporting fire while keeping up with the bikers.

Splitting your opponents fire to an AV11 vehicle is not a smart idea. A razorback could do the exact same thing with a tactical squad (pile them in the razorback TLLC, enter from reserves) and it would work because the vehicle aspect would only cost you 75pts, easy to ignore if you lose it and you'll still get the 1 round of shooting you'd get from the Stormtalon.

So let's assume you do tag the Stormtalon along with a squad worth a damn:

So you're looking to keep at least 300pts off the board, meaning you're 1700 vs. his 2000 at best. Or 1450 vs. 1750.

So to make best use of the escort ability with the Stormtalon you need to escort an outflanking unit (a squad with Sicarius, Scouts, Khan bikes, Scout Bikes) in order to make it effective otherwise you're just keeping it at extreme range, negating it's effectiveness as a fast skimmer, in which case you should simply get a predator for a far cheaper cost/better AV. Otherwise you're boosting it in from Reserves in which case you're not shooting. A Land Speeder has exactly the same ability, only there's a chance the unit will turn up first or the Land Speeder will (name me a situation in which both a Stormtalon and another unit arriving on the board is essential to any sort of strategy).

The only force which escort could possibly work with is as you said: bikes. Unfortunately, they don't need the Stormtalon, this does not augment the force in any conceivable manner. Again: Land speeders. More versitility, splitting the threat plus smaller (therefore easier to gain cover, easier to hide) on top of not having a dumb as hell looking model.

I don't know what Codex you're looking at, but Land Speeders can't outflank. The Stormtalon is thus infinitely more likely to outflank than a Land Speeder. Getting your reserves in together is essential as it lets you effectively alpha strike your opponent with a greater deal of your army, thus limiting the damage you take back. For example, two bike squads coming in and killing two targets is more than twice as effective as one, as not only does your opponent have to kill twice your number, he will also have less units to do it with than he would against just one. This is what I meant with target splitting.

Besides, even if you're just keeping it in the back shooting at stuff it's more manouverable than a Predator. A Predator can't move and fire all of it's weapons, a Stormtalon can. Finally, there's nothing stopping you from taking both Predators and Stormtalons; they're not in the same slot anyway.

No, Land Speeders cannot, nor did I make that assumption in my argument. My point was that escorting a unit is not essential to the tactic, nor does it drastically improve the ability to alpha strike because there is no reserve roll manipulation meaning it could be turn 2, it could be turn 5, you don't know. Meanwhile the enemy is hitting your 1700pt army with his 2000pt army.

You can do the exact same friggin' thing with Land speeders over the goddam Stormtalon! If you want target splitting, why not 3 over 2?

The distinct advantage of a predator is AV13. Sure it can't move and fire but it doesn't really need to. Setting up firing corridors is what they are good at, as well as having two different lascannon sponspons instead of one twin-linked set, meaning it can potentially hit with two shots as well as an autocannon which is just as effective as the skyhammer, only it has one less shot (and you're paying 30 less points).

It doesn't matter what slot the stormtalon is in if it is attempting to do the exact same job! If something can do the same thing for cheaper, why not go with that option? Again: if it looked awesome, I could understand why some people my have some preference towards it, but it does not look awesome, it looks terrible.

The stormtalon will not modify current SM lists (unless 6th makes them a must-have) because it remains a subpar unit

Could someone with some photoshop skillz post a pic of the stormtalon with the 3 wings from the star wars lambda imperial shuttle? I'm thinking a high tail wing and the two swept down wings will even it up some.

Ehsteve wrote:No, Land Speeders cannot, nor did I make that assumption in my argument. My point was that escorting a unit is not essential to the tactic, nor does it drastically improve the ability to alpha strike because there is no reserve roll manipulation meaning it could be turn 2, it could be turn 5, you don't know. Meanwhile the enemy is hitting your 1700pt army with his 2000pt army.

You can do the exact same friggin' thing with Land speeders over the goddam Stormtalon! If you want target splitting, why not 3 over 2?

The distinct advantage of a predator is AV13. Sure it can't move and fire but it doesn't really need to. Setting up firing corridors is what they are good at, as well as having two different lascannon sponspons instead of one twin-linked set, meaning it can potentially hit with two shots as well as an autocannon which is just as effective as the skyhammer, only it has one less shot (and you're paying 30 less points).

It doesn't matter what slot the stormtalon is in if it is attempting to do the exact same job! If something can do the same thing for cheaper, why not go with that option? Again: if it looked awesome, I could understand why some people my have some preference towards it, but it does not look awesome, it looks terrible.

The stormtalon will not modify current SM lists (unless 6th makes them a must-have) because it remains a subpar unit

Oh How I love 2d thinkers. you sadly only see the talon as a competing choice vs the speeder. This shall be fun.

So firing corridors with preds meams that it needs a second model to do that effectively, right? And that distinct advantage was tossed out the window the moment the talon with the SHML moved 12" and shot it in the side with no cover. Sowith your logic that AV13 pred was beat out easily by greater range and mobility simply because a model had the ability to fire 60" after moving a foot. I can easily guarantee side armor then!

Now on to out flanking, by your reserve logic, ANY army that has reserves is at a distinct disavantage immediately because the opponent always has his entire army out at once and never has reserves or never lost models during any phase of the game.

Hmmm flawed logic maybe?

You know what else is fun? Taking the tactics discussion to the tactics forum

insaniak wrote:You know what else is fun? Taking the tactics discussion to the tactics forum

Ohhhhhhh

insaniak wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Start SpessMehreen army just so I can use stormtalon.

Good plan GW!

You're trying too hard to find something to ridicule GW about with this.

Just so you know.

I do have storm raven for both my GK and BA army.
While I own bunch of SM related stuff, I have never started a Vanilla Marine army,

Which I will now with storm talon.

In other words, I was serious vroooooooom~

Wel, My Orks will love the Dakka Jets, the Necrons will also love their Scythes, and I suppose I cannot leave my Vanilla/DIY Marines feeling unloved. I wonder if they will plastic the Barracuda, or come up with some other Tau flyer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just leaves me having to get air power for my IG or they will feel left out.

insaniak wrote:You know what else is fun? Taking the tactics discussion to the tactics forum

I said that last page but they did not listen. I was ignored, not a good thing to do.

Sadly I am with Luna. . . I would LOVE to run 2 Talons in an V SM army. . . sad thing is, I HATED that book. . .

Lysenis wrote:

insaniak wrote:You know what else is fun? Taking the tactics discussion to the tactics forum

I said that last page but they did not listen. I was ignored, not a good thing to do.

Sadly I am with Luna. . . I would LOVE to run 2 Talons in an V SM army. . . sad thing is, I HATED that book. . .

Its such a pitty that that book's fluff was so BAD. Thanks Ward!