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 Alpharius wrote:
NOTE: I believe 3 dots is enough to generate an ellipses!

Also, Jon has been restored to 'life' presumably as a 'regular human', and as such is not a reanimated corpse or a White Walker so, no, he's not a zombie!

Have to see if his wounds actually heal - or if he is a different form of undead. Seemed to feel pain as well so may be more alive then dead.

I was gonna say .... wouldn't those gaping wounds in his chest start bleeding all the sudden? they didn't magically seal up like Wolverine. I'm thinking he's headed to Winterfel too. That's where I'd go if I was him. Or does he not even know what's going on there, because of being stuck on the wall and stuff?

 Necros wrote:
I was gonna say .... wouldn't those gaping wounds in his chest start bleeding all the sudden? they didn't magically seal up like Wolverine. I'm thinking he's headed to Winterfel too. That's where I'd go if I was him. Or does he not even know what's going on there, because of being stuck on the wall and stuff?

Nope. Beric Dondarrion's wounds weren't bleeding when Thoros of Myr brought him back, and he was chopped pretty badly by Sandor Clegane.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Definitely better than the previous 2 episodes so far this season, Mereen is still dragging along but the rest of the scenes
I like that they kept the line "I looked for you at the Trident" but they cut out "The Kingsguard does not flee" along with Ser Whent

I actually feel kinda sad for Olly & Ser Thorne,

Spoiler:

This is literally how we're introduced to Olly

& he has to sit & watch the people who literally wipe out his family village get safe passage beyond the wall

Ser Allistar was sent to the wall for being a Targaryean loyalist & then gets executed for for rebelling against Jon Snow & his interpretation of their vows

As for Jon I wonder where he's off to being the vowbreaker in the episode title

Jon didn't break his vow though, he hung the 4 that did.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

Jon died, his watch ended.
.

If his watch ended with his death, then he doesn't have the authority to hang the 4 ring leaders, or if it comes back when he's resurrected he breaks it by walking off
Jon's not looking for the "I was dead & therefore finished my time with the Night's Watch" he's just gone, he's fething done with the wall

Er since there's never been a Night's Watch Commander that's come back from the dead (unzombified at least) after being killed lol. How the hell do you plan for that sort of thing?

Jon Snow: "Ok, that's it, screw you guys, I'm going home."

I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

I was more expecting him to spit at Jon.

 nels1031 wrote:
I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

In his mind I doubt he has anything to repent - he tried to avenge his family and failed..................although he did manage to kill one of the savages with his bow

... so the grey scale disease thing :

is that an ancient thing and/or does it have anything to do with dragons at all ?

 reds8n wrote:
... so the grey scale disease thing :

is that an ancient thing and/or does it have anything to do with dragons at all ?

Just a really nasty disease so far as I know, a mix of leprosy and calcinosis. FYI if you've just eaten or are squeamish, it's not worth googling the images. Though leprosy is apparently quite difficult to get infected by. Granted, in GoT, it wouldn't be the same level of cleanliness as it would be in our present day and age.

 reds8n wrote:
... so the grey scale disease thing :

is that an ancient thing and/or does it have anything to do with dragons at all ?

I think I've seen some theories about that. Certainly it's interesting that we first see the disease (which turns you into a Stone Man) in someone on Dragonstone, where Melisandre is trying to wake the stone dragon(s).

Then again, GRRM loves to repeat certain themes over and over (ice and fire being the prime examples), so it's sometimes hard to know if a piece of information is Something ImportantTM or not.

Saw some blog/similar where people were speculating it's either some mutation/similar to do with people who are -- in someway -- related to dragons/those who control them.

Or that the disease itself either kills dragons -- hence why so few/extinct or is trying to "rebirth" them or might even be due to an experiment by the Mad King or similar.

Well, it doesn't seem to be selective. It appears to affect non-Valyrians and Valyrians alike.

Melisandre's prophecy about "dragons waking from stone" could be about someone with greyscale being revealed as a Targaryen. Ser Jorah could fit the bill, and in fact there are those who have speculated about him being one of the dragon riders. Then again, there's someone else who could easily have caught it but not realize it yet...

I thought the reason Dragons were rare was because they pretty much all perished in the Doom of Valyria?

Maybe an after effect of that event which might be a result of weird magic's or other realms / demons etc.

I think the story is that a few survived the Doom, but then their numbers improved under the Targaryens until the Dance of Dragons (Targaryen civil war) killed most of them. Then the few left eventually died and most of the eggs they had didn't want to hatch. Those that did produced stunted dragons.

It's not clear that dragons died out *because* of magic almost completely leaving their world (or vice versa), but the two seem at least symbolically connected.

 gorgon wrote:
I think the story is that a few survived the Doom, but then their numbers improved under the Targaryens until the Dance of Dragons (Targaryen civil war) killed most of them. Then the few left eventually died and most of the eggs they had didn't want to hatch. Those that did produced stunted dragons.

It's not clear that dragons died out *because* of magic almost completely leaving their world (or vice versa), but the two seem at least symbolically connected.

That's how I understood -it although the inbreeding can't have helped as I think the story goes that the Targaryians only had three Dragons to start with - but it went up to 20 or 30 at their height and as you say most were killed in the civil war.

I mean, something that is interesting is that magic up till know hasnt been much of a thing until the dragons hatched/started growing.
But I certainly best greyscale is a magical disease. If you so much as touch someone infect you get it. No ifs ands or buts. You get it. That sounds magical to me.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

In his mind I doubt he has anything to repent - he tried to avenge his family and failed..................although he did manage to kill one of the savages with his bow

That's the problem - he put personal revenge before doing his duty as a man of the Night's Watch. The Wildlings are not the real enemy - old enemies need to set aside old hatreds and prepare for the long night. Like Jon said, the Nights Watch vow to defend all the realms of men. That includes the Wildlings.

Contrast Olly to Jon, who did his duty instead of riding south to join his brother Robb (albeit with his friends persuasion), who did his duty and abandoned his lover Ygritte instead of helping to take Castle Black, who did his duty and rebuffed Stannis Baratheons offer to legitimize Jon and name him warden of the north.

 gorgon wrote:
Well, it doesn't seem to be selective. It appears to affect non-Valyrians and Valyrians alike.

Melisandre's prophecy about "dragons waking from stone" could be about someone with greyscale being revealed as a Targaryen. Ser Jorah could fit the bill, and in fact there are those who have speculated about him being one of the dragon riders. Then again, there's someone else who could easily have caught it but not realize it yet...

If I'm remembering correctly, the dragons have already woke from stone, the eggs were petrified. I don't think there's a connection between the dragons and the stone men.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

In his mind I doubt he has anything to repent - he tried to avenge his family and failed..................although he did manage to kill one of the savages with his bow

That's the problem - he put personal revenge before doing his duty as a man of the Night's Watch. The Wildlings are not the real enemy - old enemies need to set aside old hatreds and prepare for the long night. Like Jon said, the Nights Watch vow to defend all the realms of men. That includes the Wildlings.

Contrast Olly to Jon, who did his duty instead of riding south to join his brother Robb (albeit with his friends persuasion), who did his duty and abandoned his lover Ygritte instead of helping to take Castle Black, who did his duty and rebuffed Stannis Baratheons offer to legitimize Jon and name him warden of the north.

I think that is the thing. To all of the nights watch, the wildings WHERE the things to defend against. Most did not see the horror the white walkers and their zombie horde brought. to them it was a legend. For such a long time, the white walkers where just legends and wildlings where the thing to defend against. So Jon realizing the truth knew they where not the enemies. But the rest of the watch didnt.

Maybe not yet, but they should by now!

Especially as they've all seen White Walkers and re-animated corpses by now!

sirlynchmob wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Well, it doesn't seem to be selective. It appears to affect non-Valyrians and Valyrians alike.

Melisandre's prophecy about "dragons waking from stone" could be about someone with greyscale being revealed as a Targaryen. Ser Jorah could fit the bill, and in fact there are those who have speculated about him being one of the dragon riders. Then again, there's someone else who could easily have caught it but not realize it yet...

If I'm remembering correctly, the dragons have already woke from stone, the eggs were petrified. I don't think there's a connection between the dragons and the stone men.

I tend to agree, but GRRM usually writes it so that multiple interpretations could apply. Witness Azor Ahai being born "amidst smoke and salt." It could be applied to more than one current character, if it even refers to a single person.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

In his mind I doubt he has anything to repent - he tried to avenge his family and failed..................although he did manage to kill one of the savages with his bow

That's the problem - he put personal revenge before doing his duty as a man of the Night's Watch. The Wildlings are not the real enemy - old enemies need to set aside old hatreds and prepare for the long night. Like Jon said, the Nights Watch vow to defend all the realms of men. That includes the Wildlings.

Contrast Olly to Jon, who did his duty instead of riding south to join his brother Robb (albeit with his friends persuasion), who did his duty and abandoned his lover Ygritte instead of helping to take Castle Black, who did his duty and rebuffed Stannis Baratheons offer to legitimize Jon and name him warden of the north.

I think that is the thing. To all of the nights watch, the wildings WHERE the things to defend against. Most did not see the horror the white walkers and their zombie horde brought. to them it was a legend. For such a long time, the white walkers where just legends and wildlings where the thing to defend against. So Jon realizing the truth knew they where not the enemies. But the rest of the watch didnt.

I suspect that the Wildlings' presence beyond the wall and the Night Watch's ranging are what precipated the current conflict with the WW/Others.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe not yet, but they should by now!

Especially as they've all seen White Walkers and re-animated corpses by now!

Look at the quality of people in the NW, though. Not really the types who are open to that kind of enlightenment. That was kinda the sad part with the hanging. Thorne is a jagoff, but a good ranger and fighter. You don't want to lose valuable guys ike that, but there's no way he was going to be convinced that their entire mission was a lie/misunderstanding.

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe not yet, but they should by now!

Especially as they've all seen White Walkers and re-animated corpses by now!

they all have? I can bet a few have. but not all I think.

 gorgon wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
... so the grey scale disease thing :

is that an ancient thing and/or does it have anything to do with dragons at all ?

I think I've seen some theories about that. Certainly it's interesting that we first see the disease (which turns you into a Stone Man) in someone on Dragonstone, where Melisandre is trying to wake the stone dragon(s).

Then again, GRRM loves to repeat certain themes over and over (ice and fire being the prime examples), so it's sometimes hard to know if a piece of information is Something ImportantTM or not.

Maybe he is taking forever to write his books because GW hires him to write the Space Marine books?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
I was surprised that Olly went out like he did. I was expecting him to be crying and repentant after looking Jon in the eyes, but he went full Dark Side Face to the very end.

In his mind I doubt he has anything to repent - he tried to avenge his family and failed..................although he did manage to kill one of the savages with his bow

That's the problem - he put personal revenge before doing his duty as a man of the Night's Watch. The Wildlings are not the real enemy - old enemies need to set aside old hatreds and prepare for the long night. Like Jon said, the Nights Watch vow to defend all the realms of men. That includes the Wildlings.

Contrast Olly to Jon, who did his duty instead of riding south to join his brother Robb (albeit with his friends persuasion), who did his duty and abandoned his lover Ygritte instead of helping to take Castle Black, who did his duty and rebuffed Stannis Baratheons offer to legitimize Jon and name him warden of the north.

I think that is the thing. To all of the nights watch, the wildings WHERE the things to defend against. Most did not see the horror the white walkers and their zombie horde brought. to them it was a legend. For such a long time, the white walkers where just legends and wildlings where the thing to defend against. So Jon realizing the truth knew they where not the enemies. But the rest of the watch didnt.

The rest of the Watch are idiots.

 gorgon wrote:


Look at the quality of people in the NW, though. Not really the types who are open to that kind of enlightenment. That was kinda the sad part with the hanging. Thorne is a jagoff, but a good ranger and fighter. You don't want to lose valuable guys ike that, but there's no way he was going to be convinced that their entire mission was a lie/misunderstanding.

Look at the quality of people in the NW, though. Not really the types who are open to that kind of enlightenment. That was kinda the sad part with the hanging. Thorne is a jagoff, but a good ranger and fighter. You don't want to lose valuable guys ike that, but there's no way he was going to be convinced that their entire mission was a lie/misunderstanding.

 Alpharius wrote:

Fair enough - and that's probably the true tragedy of the situation at the Wall now.

I really thought that Jon was NOT going to go through with it - even to the point when he was swinging the blade!

Resurrection can do a lot to man

There was also:

"Every time I come back, I'm a bit less. Pieces of you get chipped away."
―Beric Dondarrion

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

Fair enough - and that's probably the true tragedy of the situation at the Wall now.

I really thought that Jon was NOT going to go through with it - even to the point when he was swinging the blade!

Resurrection can do a lot to man

Spoiler:

I've heard a theory that Jon is still in Ghost & it's something else animating Jon's body

That would be awful - I hope that is not the case!

kronk wrote:There was also:

"Every time I come back, I'm a bit less. Pieces of you get chipped away."
―Beric Dondarrion

Now that I remember - and since this is only Jon 2.0, he should be mostly OK.