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Sidstyler wrote:Anger which will be ignored, apparently. People who have been complaining have just been getting generic e-mails that address none of their concerns or some short piece of crap by Mark Wells saying "Sorry bro."

But yeah that's how gak goes.

Not to defend GW at all, but emails are really easy to ignore. If someone wants a real response from a company they need to write a letter on paper and use the post.

To be honest, I dont think the resin is that bad, its the casting problems thats causing all of the trouble, I got 2 boxes of "fine" cast incubi the other day, bodys, heads and back things were Pretty much fine, in fact I got a couple of flawless ones, but the klaives in both boxes seemed to have slipped a bit, so now i have a unit of incubni whos fingers dont line up and the blades have doubled on themselves, the blades are easily fixed with a hobby knife but the fingers not so much. Yes the detail is better but does all the extra cleaning and work needed warrant the extra detail? and the extra price? at 23 pound a box I'd expect a full box of perfectly cast models from the "best" miniature company in the world.

An interesting post from a guy over on The Miniatures Page

Real quick note from a guy who has 27+yrs experience with commercial/industrial/military resins…cured resin does not melt in direct sunlight.

UV can and will degrade the surface of untreated resin…bulk of my experience was in Florida and Texas…I have seen my fair share of 100+ degree summers.

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

I don't know much about resin but that doesn't sound too good. Can anyone shed some light on the situation?

And so GW's ultimate plan comes to light...they switched to the cheaper material so that your models would actually degrade after time, and so you would be forced to keep buying them at ever-increasing prices.

Or am I reading that wrong? Because it sounds to me like Finecast models might have an expiration date, and if they do then there really is no justification for the high cost of this hobby anymore. All those people saying "Yeah well you never have to replace the models!" will be wrong because your models will naturally degrade over time (probably not the plastic ones but still), forcing you to buy new ones.

I'm surprised they didn't just cut to the chase and make them out of sugar.

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.

And they raised the prices! HA!

I can't find my KFF Big Mek!!!

Coffee? Sure. How many lumps of fineco$t would you like with that?

Heat + plastic or resin = deformity

Sunlight causes heat. Heat can make plastics and resins soft and deform. That does not mean that the material is uncured.

My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.

FW 5 preheresy space marines $33 usd

GW FC 5 sternguard $45 usd

Wow, it might be possible to make a cheaper army with 100% FW in the near future!

Alendrel wrote:My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.

Perfectly reasonable suspicion, which begs the question: why not use polystyrene? We all know that:

a) It won't seriously deform unless exposed to excessive heat.
b) There are exactly zero potential health risks, not even rumors.
c) Polystyrene is easy to clean and assemble, like resin.
d) Games Workshop has all but perfected the casting process for their polystyrene models.

Wouldn't it have been simpler, and cheaper, to simply use more plastic than develop a new material and process that is more difficult to work with?

It is indeed shocking that FW has become cheaper in some aspects than GW's mainstream production line. Waiting for the day in which it will be cheaper to make a Krieg army than a Cadian one....we're getting closer.

Guildsman wrote:

Alendrel wrote:My suspicion is that the Finecast material, being softer and more flexible, is more prone to this. As noted, it's an issue with any resin or plastic, the only question is what the threshold is for a given formulation.

Perfectly reasonable suspicion, which begs the question: why not use polystyrene? We all know that:

a) It won't seriously deform unless exposed to excessive heat.
b) There are exactly zero potential health risks, not even rumors.
c) Polystyrene is easy to clean and assemble, like resin.
d) Games Workshop has all but perfected the casting process for their polystyrene models.

Wouldn't it have been simpler, and cheaper, to simply use more plastic than develop a new material and process that is more difficult to work with?

Because the tooled steel molds for polystyrene injection molding are several orders of magnitude more expensive than the silicone rubber (vulcanized or chemical cure) used for metal and resin. A plastic kit needs a high volume of sales to be worthwhile, and a lot of the metal/Finecast range won't hit that threshold. Also, the flexibility of the rubber molds allows for much more complex shapes, with undercuts and such. While their plastic has caught up in its ability to capture and hold detail, to achieve the same kind of effects on the final model would require either breaking the model down into so many parts they'd be better off resculpting it from the ground up for plastic, or using multi-section molds, which are become even more expensive as they get more complex.

I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.

Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.

Darth Bob wrote:I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.

Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.

If you don't complain and ask for a replacement piece, then GW won't get an accurate count of their failure rate and the quality won't go up. You need to call customer service about the piece and describe your problem if you want to avoid it (or worse examples) in the future.

picked up a finecast myself tonight, my LGS only had 2 come in, the one i got, Huron Blackheart and another guy got a Gorbad Ironclaw. i got a good look at Gorbad out of his box and he was fairly decent looking, most of him was light on flash, some parts had an issue with being a bit to fine and thin, as if the detail was "delicate" this was an issue i saw a great deal of on my model.

In addition my Huron had some pretty substantial flash and mold-lines, i do not see any real miscast although some of the new vent lines are in places that truly baffle me as to how unfortunate they are. i literally found myself trimming away a vent line from right next to a protruding detail and the vent was about 4 times thicker than the detail. my sprue varied from brittle to somewhat flexible, it was definitely not consistent across pieces that had the same overall dimensions. this was apparently replicated in the model itself, although i could not test it very well for obvious reasons. The cleaning time was a great deal more than i have spent on this model in metal
overall i would say this was a very mixed bag, where it was right it was great, and to say it glued well would be a serious understatement. i do have my doubts as to the overall durability and longevity of these myself, the joint strength is great but fine protruding detail..well tie will tell but it did not look good, im literally worried about brushing this up against the foam walls in my foam trays. i believe these are going to flex around just under this routine procedure.

really, aside from the ease of assembly, which is substantial, i do not think these are ready for prime time, the inconsistent and flexi-brittle nature of this material makes me very leery about how many of these are in my army.

To be blunt, if this model was priced at say 20 in metal and 15 in finecast, i would pay the 20. it should be noted that i date back to the days when your army was totaly metal so i'm not as bent by metal fig assembly as say my son is

last min edit: Hurons familiar does has some bubble issues and a flat out miscast area on it that will take a good deal of carving/resculpt, but i have Huron assembled now and im not seeing any bubbles on him or miscast. just a ton of flash/mold-lines

Darth Bob wrote:I bought Gulavhar, the Terror of Arnor and I must say, I'm a bit dissapointed. The head is so marred by extra resin that it's un-repairable and there were a large amount of places that required fixing by greenstuff. No resin bubbles to speak of but there's a lot of thin resin and hard-to-reach flash. The model will work for what I'm doing, since I'm not using the head, but if I had bought him to actually use as Gulavhar, I would have returned him just for the head alone. The effort and cleanup wasn't much worse than a Forge World model, but it wasn't much better. It took about an hour or so and I still need to reform one of the talons on his toes as it is so thin I can see through it.

Overall, it's not nearly the quality they say it is, but it's not THAT bad. Worth the model going up by eleven dollars? Absolutely not. A friend of mine bought the Khorne Chaos Champion and it looked good despite a small hole in his cape.

That model was always shocking, even in metal. I don't mean bad castings, just really ugly and not sculpted very nicely in my opinion http://www.laguerradelanillo.com/content/view/281/59/

and you're out 1 head for bits, I'd return it if I were you.

krazynadechukr wrote: 5 bloodnights $99.99?[/b][/u]

I had to go check that for myself when I read that. Utterly ridiculous.

Father: Here you go son, here's a $100 Isle of Blood set with a whole horde of Skaven and a warhost of High Elves, complete with a great eagle, dice, rulebooks and templates!

Son: Well, I was thinking of getting into Vampire Counts.

Father: Sure! Here's a $100 box of. . .5 knights. . . . . .would you rather just get a couple of XBox games?

Son: Sounds good.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.

And they raised the prices! HA!

Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D

LunaHound wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.

And they raised the prices! HA!

Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D

If by that you mean eventually turning into a melty puddle of grey Fondue. Then yes.

I did notice yesterday the Azhag in GW Lincoln was getting a little droopy...

This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...

Grimtuff wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

It goes without saying that they are using something other than a standard casting/forming resin…some cheap knick knack formula…what we in the business refer to as dust resin, because it has nearly no resistance to contact or the environment…this type of formula is usually used for single use and disposable products…it starts to break down in the trash can.

My friend's wife said something along those lines - that these models will not last, and will simply degrade over time. If nothing else makes you think twice about Finecost, then this should.

And they raised the prices! HA!

Are fine cast also biodegradable? would be so nice :'D

If by that you mean eventually turning into a melty puddle of grey Fondue. Then yes.

I did notice yesterday the Azhag in GW Lincoln was getting a little droopy...

Then there you go :3
fine cast costs extras because they includes recycling fee xD

Really?
They biodegrade?!?!

I'm sorry, but what is the point of this finecast stuff apart from making you buy more figs?
Sure more detail in the places that aren't miscast, but if the model will later dissolve into a grey-ish blob, then I can't quite see how anybody will even think of buying stuff from finecast at all !
GW needs to fix that or they will become very unpopular.

NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...

"It's the same thing as buying a luxury car!" I hear people saying already. "Cars don't last forever you know, they have to be replaced eventually! Why should GW models be any different? YOU OWE GW EVERYTHING JUST BUY IT AND SHUT UP OR GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!"

NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...

Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.

Is there any way to find out for sure if Finecast really is biodegradable? Because that would take the cake. If that's correct then no way will I ever buy a finecast, even if I can check for miscasts first.

I think the bio-degradable idea has been mis-construed over the last dozen posts. Originally it was stated a resin of this nature will degrade over time. Given how susceptible it is to heat, it makes sense. Time frame is unknown.

LunaHound wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:This material is great for GW because at the end of each summer people will have to buy their collections all over again...

Cars and electronics used to be able to last decades , now they last 4 years.
GW is always on cutting edge way of doing things! its only natural for them to follow the trend.

Lol yeah I know you are teasing but I would like to add that the difference here is you cannot have any estimative of its longevity it can be 2 years, 2 hours or 2 decades depends of........ the sun

Just reviewed the Lictor in my painting log (link in signature).

Yeah...finecast is worrying for some ranges.