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wyomingfox wrote:

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

According to his own Blog: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/. Yes it is.

moderator wrote:Insulting past or present Dakka users is not allowed. If you continue to do so, further disciplinary action will be taken up to and including temporary suspension of your account.

Laosiamus wrote:Example HB's at a ravager with BS 4

.33 to hit
.16 to glance.

this leaves you with roughly a 5% chance to do anything to a ravager with 1 single HB shot.

Now to make that even remotely attainable you need devy squads or there equiv. On top of that you are 30" to my 36" Plasma.

Imo, HB spam is not the answer.

Ok, but there are only 3 ravagers and 6 raiders, and remember you are at BS4 so 3+ hits.

You will fire 3 shots from the HB str 5 at BS4 so I see the math as;

3 shots at .66 (3,4,5, 6 to hit), so 1.98 hits

To damage it is 1.98 * .33 (5,6 to damage) so .65 ish

You would need 2 HB's to damage one Raider and then you would have a +1 on the damage table due to its open top status resulting in an average result of a weapon destroyed or vehicle immobilised. (-1 avg damage mod +1 open top bonus meaning no modifiers)

I agree that static HB's in dev squads wouldn't work but a speeder with HB can move 12 and fire 30 (due to your nightshields) giving them a 42" range. Of course if you then have 3 whirlwinds and can place the templates where they hit 1.3 raiders per shot (they are big models afterall) then every 3 whirlwind str 5 shot will damage 2 raiders, so 2 damaged raiders per turn from 42" if they have LOS, 48" if they don't, plus 1 damaged from 2 HB speeders, so 2 turns, 6 damaged Raiders. Use those damaged raiders as cover for the mobile multimeltas which can move 12, fire 18, to go after those 3 Ravagers and you can start to see the cracks, IMHO. You can mitigate this by moving flat out and getting cover saves but then you aren't firing so who cares?

ShumaGorath wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

According to his own Blog: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/. Yes it is.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with Stelek/Stelek's attitude, it's very bad form to make personal attacks in his absence. It adds nothing to this thread, and I doubt he cares anyhow.

HB's are nice death but not the answer. I was replying to someone on this thread who stated they would tear it up. They wont. My list does have some H2H elements to it and my lord is dangerous from a minimun 27" away.

I typed my math wrong, stupid phone calculator. and we can branch it down further

the math on the ravager would be 3(.66*.16)=30%
all 30% of these are glancing hits so out of that you have

33% cant shoot
16% cant move or shoot
16% wep destroyed
16% immobolised
16% wreck

the math on a raider would be 3(.66*.33)=63%
half of these would be pens half glance

if you glance
33% cant shoot
16% cant move or shoot
16% wep destroyed
16% immobolised
16% wreck

if you pen
33% destroyed
16% wrecked
16% immobolised
16% wep destroyed
16% cant move or shoot.

what is your army Death? Did I miss it? Show me what you would take. Not a "look I countered your list."

deathwatchac wrote:

Troops

Attack Squadron 1 6 bike
power weapon
meltagun
meltagun
speeder HB AC
attack bike multimelta

Attack Squadron 2 6 bikes
power weapon
plasma gun
plasma gun
apothecary
attack bike multimelta
Speeder HB AC

Attack Squadron 3 6 bikes
power weapon
melta
melta

ok so are the squadrons 6 bikes and an attack bike?? Or is the attack bike one of the 6.

I Found your list by the way LOL. Its not a bad list

Hi

They are all 6 bikes and then an attack bike mate. In Ravenwing the bikes can split into two squads of three or 1 squad of 6 and the attack bike is always a solo unit. All bikes have scout and are fearless. No worries about not seeing the list. It is lost a bit in the thread. I wasn't really trying to say 'look I countered your list' but I did post a list to discuss which I feel does challenge the strengths of the DE and at the same time may take on other armies.

Yeah, I posted a standard marine list that should function well against this list but no one seemed to notice while they were all asking people to post a list that could deal with multiple tournement lists. It's on page 5 for anyone that's interested.

I dont know how bikes en masse would do in your guys hands but the last person I played them with it didnt go well.

Drop pods are dangerous to just about anyone Hulk but the question is can your dreds even the field faster then dying?

I would really like to play both lists but nobody plays ravenwing here.

How close together are your vehicles to keep them all out of my ranged fire Lao? I'm asking because just one heavy flamer just might be able to get 2 hits on 2 vehicles. Now add that to the rockets launched from the typhoons, the multi-meltas, and heavy bolters and see how many you can take out of action each turn.

As for bike armies they are completely in how they are handled. Remember though that we got a boost in numbers and gear recently due to the new marine dex. I don't play ravenwing as I now don't get as many toys as the new dex and my guys were purple to start with so i can't speak for the ravenwing.

But its not just the raiders, its the haemonculi.
If you are getting close enough to fire at them with melta weapons then you are close enough to get flamed with a template that has a 50% to ignore a marine save. I doubt any reasonable person would see those as good odds.
Again Heavy Bolters, who cares, see my post above. Flamers same deal to be honest. Ok so you can hit two raiders at once. How is that better than a normal bs4 heavy bolter which will hit one on average twice?

You need 48" weapons to kill this list, and you either have to castle with them, OR have enough to spread the whole table with them so he cannot refuse flank you. If you castle then how are you dealing with objectives consistently?

There have still been no answers, please stop invoking the use of Meltas and bolters.

edit: So Hulksmash that bike list you posted, I really don't think would work. Yes you can turboboost, so can he. He has more units that can boost than you I think? If you can get 6 combat squad bikes? and the speeder? Again the normal melta guns are fairly useless I think. 6" range? The multi melta's less so with 18" but you only have three on the bikes. As for the ones of the dreads, I just don't think they stand a chance against those dark lances. His answer to your bikes is the Haemonculi wyches and ravagers. His answer to your armor is dark lance spam. I think objectively you have to say that his capabilities are better than yours.

@garinator

Yes it's a solid list. I've never denied that but you miss the point. You asked to post a list that could give this list a run and every other major tournement list one too. You don't need 48" weapons to beat this list. The dreads land ON the speeders. Meaning if your keeping close to stay out of my range i'm flaming 2-3 of your transports causing 2 hits each, the melta will be in range to hurt at least one tank.

Now bearing that in mind while all those dark lances are firing at the dread, which on average just to guarentee an immobolized will require all the lances in the list. The dread is there to take fire from you to get the bikes closer and to do a litttle damage on his own. Oh yeah, if you turbo boost then you don't shoot. If I turbo boost and you don't then you better kill everything or i'm up in your face. The main problem most lists have against this is that they don't control the movement phase against it. The bikes can and will counter it. And as for the Haemonculi how long do they last when a transport goes down with 5 paper wounds between them and death? Heck the squads w/more range (multi-melta attack bike, HB Attack bike or typhoons) could down one and then the other combat squad could kill the unit. It's all application of fire power.

Oh and since this list is designed for close range fire fights that wipe out a portion of the army leaving the rest of the army out of position to respond with reasonable weaponry how do you plan on keeping the distance open? Just a thought. You state how great this list is but then all you do is qoute gun ranges without taking the limitations you face to do the things your army requires of you to win.

This list can challenge (not beat everytime but i'd give it an even chance if not better with me using it) the dark eldar list all the while also being good against most of the other "popular" list builds. Orks are the hardest opponent for this list hands down but I still think i could put a big dent in them.

@ Hulksmash.

I think your list can kill stuff for sure but in order to do that you have to make your fragile small units open to return fire. My lord can almost gut a unit a turn and if you break them to 3 man he can do a unit a turn. also depending on where you are deep striking my raider squads have blasters.

Also I dont know how Orks are the list to fear? I have enough firepower to soften a lot of units and a counter assault unit and yes that counter assault unit will cause havoc

@Lao

I didn't state against your list. I said against my list orks are a problem. And my list is in reference to Stelek's list which doesn't have a lord but 6 haemonculi. His list runs shredders not blasters. Lots of differences but against your list the style is the same. Your blaster could add with the DL's and guarentee that dead dreadnought.

As for your lord he'd be fighting 5 wound units, not 3. If he's using an agonizer or a punisher w/+1 strength then he'll cause 2 wounds per round if he's got 6 attacks. If he's got a bodyguard they could probably kill a unit per turn but if they do then they get shot to pieces. I don't run ravenwing. My list clearly states it's based on the new marine dex.

I haven't seen your list and wasn't compary it to mine. Though if you post it i'll show you where I think my army will work against. My list, like stelek's, is one i designed to take on the variety of power lists out there. It's not supreme against anything but it is very good against most things.

My list is on here, I want to say page 5ish

I forgot yours wasnt the ravenwing, just a very similar list. My bad

Hulksmash wrote:@Lao

As for your lord he'd be fighting 5 wound units, not 3. If he's using an agonizer or a punisher w/+1 strength then he'll cause 2 wounds per round if he's got 6 attacks. If he's got a bodyguard they could probably kill a unit per turn but if they do then they get shot to pieces. I don't run ravenwing. My list clearly states it's based on the new marine dex

Just a quick clarification. The new FAQ entry for the Reaver Jetbike removes the requirement to keep a hand free for driving, bringing them in line with the rest of the bikes in Codices released recently. This allows for a Reaver Archon with a Punisher, bringing his base S up to 5, with an easy upgrade to 6 with combat drugs. This is a combo that not many have seen quite yet, as I don't think many DE players have realized this change has been made.

Six re-roll to hit WS 7 power weapon attacks at S6 and initiative 6 is an easy thing to pull off now. With this mix, the Archon would most likely kill the bike squad charged in the SM player's turn and be free to continue moving around. Of course, the Archon could always fail his Shadowfield save and get squished by a powerfist, too.

As for the bike list that was posted earlier, it suffers from some of the similar issues that lists like Deathwing do against DE. DE just pack way too many high S, low AP weapons for a low model count, expensive model army to deal with. A DE player would not shoot the dreads until they were immobilized; he would shoot the dreads until they couldn't shoot the next turn (probably just 2-3 DL shots each), and then focus on removing the bikes. With the new blast marker rules, each individual ravager should be able to effectivly neuter a bike squad with each round of shooting, barring turbo-boost. If the bikes did turbo, Steleks list would try to overwhelm them with saves by doing a lot of Slave Snare runs followed by Destructor, Shredder and Disintegrator blasts.

I dunno if it would work, but that's the theory. I do know that in my experience playing DE, I've had a lot of opportunity to play Ravenwing (the closest army to what you have proposed). The only build of Ravenwing I have trouble with is the one that brings 10+ speeders to the party, but I haven't faced that in 5th yet.

ShumaGorath wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

moderator wrote:Insulting past or present Dakka users is not allowed. If you continue to do so, further disciplinary action will be taken up to and including temporary suspension of your account.

how was i insaulting stelek?

ShumaGorath wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

According to his own Blog: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/. Yes it is.

moderator wrote:Insulting past or present Dakka users is not allowed. If you continue to do so, further disciplinary action will be taken up to and including temporary suspension of your account.

sourclams wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

According to his own Blog: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/. Yes it is.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with Stelek/Stelek's attitude, it's very bad form to make personal attacks in his absence. It adds nothing to this thread, and I doubt he cares anyhow.

Deathmachine wrote:how was i insaulting stelek?

I don't see how you two could construe the following quotes as personal attacks on Stelek

Thanks wyomingfox and if anyone does think i was insulting stelek i dont think you know what bad words are and i would like to show you.

Its boilerplate language deathmachine. More importantly you're misinterpreting, the language edited was from another poster and just was carried forward to yours. Please keep "Deathmachine's uber power of bad words" holstered thanks

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant.

ohh well in that case my bad.

Hulksmash wrote:@garinator

Yes it's a solid list. I've never denied that but you miss the point. You asked to post a list that could give this list a run and every other major tournement list one too. You don't need 48" weapons to beat this list. The dreads land ON the speeders. Meaning if your keeping close to stay out of my range i'm flaming 2-3 of your transports causing 2 hits each, the melta will be in range to hurt at least one tank.

Now bearing that in mind while all those dark lances are firing at the dread, which on average just to guarentee an immobolized will require all the lances in the list. The dread is there to take fire from you to get the bikes closer and to do a litttle damage on his own. Oh yeah, if you turbo boost then you don't shoot. If I turbo boost and you don't then you better kill everything or i'm up in your face. The main problem most lists have against this is that they don't control the movement phase against it. The bikes can and will counter it. And as for the Haemonculi how long do they last when a transport goes down with 5 paper wounds between them and death? Heck the squads w/more range (multi-melta attack bike, HB Attack bike or typhoons) could down one and then the other combat squad could kill the unit. It's all application of fire power.

Oh and since this list is designed for close range fire fights that wipe out a portion of the army leaving the rest of the army out of position to respond with reasonable weaponry how do you plan on keeping the distance open? Just a thought. You state how great this list is but then all you do is qoute gun ranges without taking the limitations you face to do the things your army requires of you to win.

This list can challenge (not beat everytime but i'd give it an even chance if not better with me using it) the dark eldar list all the while also being good against most of the other "popular" list builds. Orks are the hardest opponent for this list hands down but I still think i could put a big dent in them.

Sigh, I can see why Stelek got banned for replying to posts like this one. Look its not personal, you can admit your wrong. I gladly will if you can show prove rationally, logically, objectively that that list works against this one. But those arguments just don't help.

long range firefights = DE win.
You turbo boost into range = His flamers don't care about your cover saves, his ravagers do but honestly you have so few guys that a ravager should still kill a combat squad. They put out three S7 blast templates. You have 3 guys per squad. Its silly to think they won't. And note, his wyches especially don't care. On the other hand you have some Multi-meltas and bolters, that don't even get the jump on him.

In not trying to be insulting but arguing that this DE would list would do anything but destroy Ravenwing is just preposterous.

Again 48" weaponry in castle, or enough to spread the board is required. If you don't havethat, then his mobility and the nightshields = win.

I second Garinator. The only weakness of the DE list is low armor/toughness. It'll butcher any mid or close combat oriented list with fire and mobility. The best counter while maintaining all-comers viability would be IG gunline loaded for bear with autocannons and drop elites armed with melta, and even then you'd be vulnerable to AV14 armies.

The smaller, and more elite your army is (i.e. Ravenwing-style bike rush) the more brutally Stelek's DE will chop you apart.

Exactly. For instance, this list would likely completely WRECK his proposed Sternguard + Librarians drop pod list that everyone's been claiming is superpowerful. Every army has a counter.

It would be interesting to see this list against an Eldar skimmer army, which also has lots of fast tanks. The DE can field more, but the Eldar are more survivable, and with a decent number of S6 weapons that are quite good at taking down AV10 open-topped skimmers.

Holofields would easily tip the balance, Mechdar would gradually chop the raiders apart due to survivability.

Mechdar and the DE list are about equal. While the tanks are harder to kill there isnt many of them

@Gar

Gar you need to read my list. It's not 3 guys per combat squad. Nor is it ravenwing. It's the new marine dex with the new marine toys and point values. It's got Typhoons and a normal bike mounted captain. Ironclad dreadnoughts landing on you. Attack bike squadrons and combat scout units on storms. It's by no means a ravenwing list. I agree. This list would crush 3 man combat squads. I can admit to being wrong when the arguements used against me are specific and in reference to the right material.

@General post

The thing you are missing is that this list has the mobility, the sheer number of units (when combat squaded) to saturate while at the same time maintaining pressure. If go range you ignore the dread that landed. Remember your flying paper airplanes. Sheer number of st4 shots will keep raiders from moving and shooting.

You guys act like no return fire of any type will hit the speeders or that it will miraculously bounce off armor 10 and 11. On units that can move 12 and have a 24 inch range on their guns i'm going to be in range because guess what. I start minimum 12" in (if i start on the table) which means unless you turn sideways along the back edge I can hit you with my ranged weapons. Heck that still wouldn't save you from the speeders, attack bikes, or podding dreads. Stuff hits your list too guys. Especially fast stuff.

Only an idiot would enter close combat against a Dark Eldar lord on his turn. Especially with if he's on a bike w/the new rules. Forgot that bikes gave them st4 I'll let him assault me since it's far better to leave him in the open than feed him 2 units.

Again i'm just pointing out a list that works against this list with at least 50/50 chances (never stated it would do better than 50/50 as tactics, scenarios, and dice are a huge proponent) against this list as well as slightly higher against other power builds. Something no one else has even attempted cept for the ravenwing guy who has gone quiet

I'll post my Ork speed freak list on here later with a detailed layout as well as my daemon list though the daemon list isn't as sure for me as I haven't run them for nearly long enough.

I used to play RW versus DE back in 3e. Sure things have changed a lot since then but back then the RW mobility plus all the mounted melta weapons gave DE fits. If you factor in a good number of landspeeders that will give a SM bike army an edge as they can easily match the speed of the DE skimmers. I used MotRW back then and he gunned down his fair share of DE skimmers with ease... now that he has AV14 that would be a real thorn in the side of the dark kin and could quickly force them out of their game plan.

One way to beat this army with a SM bike/speeder army would be to split your forces and make the DE have to stay in the center of the table, taking them out of their DZ. I think we should also mention that SM bike/speeder armies that can outflank is another big problem for this particular DE army. So there is more than one way to skin this cat as the saying goes.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

One way to beat this army with a SM bike/speeder army would be to split your forces and make the DE have to stay in the center of the table, taking them out of their DZ. I think we should also mention that SM bike/speeder armies that can outflank is another big problem for this particular DE army. So there is more than one way to skin this cat as the saying goes.

G

how does that force me to stay in the middle, I could take my whole army and crush one of your flanks.

The SM bike/speeder army can shoot as they come in from reserve while outflanking your skimmers. You will have to move out of your DZ to play keep away.

Splitting the SM bike/speeder army is risky as you have noted it is possible to use your entire army against half of the SM force. To do it right the SM bike/speeder army will have to form a V to support each other.

G