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Hulksmash wrote:@Gar

Gar you need to read my list. It's not 3 guys per combat squad. Nor is it ravenwing. It's the new marine dex with the new marine toys and point values. It's got Typhoons and a normal bike mounted captain. Ironclad dreadnoughts landing on you. Attack bike squadrons and combat scout units on storms. It's by no means a ravenwing list. I agree. This list would crush 3 man combat squads. I can admit to being wrong when the arguements used against me are specific and in reference to the right material.

Ok, I have not read your list properly. But that doesn't get you far, nor does that reply. If it had been limited to, "you havn't read my list" perhaps then I would have to go and re-read it. Fortunately you have given me a summary and shown that I do not have to read it to know I will not be convinced. I need to get back to study so I will keep it brief:

1. He does not care whether they are ironclads or normals. Dark lances.
2. Look you cannot argue that he will die because he spams paper planes if you do the exact same thing, except with fewer paper planes which come with worse weapons.
3. Ok I had not considered Storm Scouts, but again neither have you. Just saying you have them does not get you very far. Tell us why he should be scared of storm scouts? Did you think about it? Thinking about it now I think he would laugh. Why should he be more scared of them than normal drop pod marines? They won't be around after they shoot and his Haemonculi kill them easier. How does the leadership thing help? In short, how do 4+ save troops that don't have proper anti-tank (Again I don't think s5 or S6 counts) help???
4. If you don't split your squads into combat then you are even worse off. Suddenly you can only kill half the raiders in your one turn of shooting before he retaliates. It also allows him to mop up easier with they wyches.

These are all obvious statements. All the reasonable person has to do is think of the counters to his arguments before he posts them and save everyone the time.

As to Mech eldar, I don't think it would stand a chance. he'll just stun and move on. He can have double the number of skimmers that holofield eldar skimmers can have and you can only have 3 of them. I play mech eldar and they are not the solution to this list. EML spam could be though.

I wouldnt be to worried about the way you set up at all. V or not

the V cuts off your lateral movement forcing you to stay centered your only movement possible is up the middle with nowhere else to so to speak. The V is your basic hammer and anvil and will force into a shooting game where the V will be able to shoot back and keep advancing. You can attempt to fly over one flank but it will limit your shooting in return while the V closes into two ranks. Your skimmers are going to take a pounding... There's no getting around that now.

G

@G

WHAT!?!

You dont have the models to trade up. In one round of average fire I can eliminate several of the main threats of your army? V or not you wont be on the table anymore

care to explain your claim? I could field enough units to saturate your fire lances. Basically the bikes turbo boost up while the speeders hang back a bit and take pot shots at your skimmers. If you shoot the bikes the speeders just continue pounding away. If you shoot the speeders the bikes are now in melta range. Either way your skimmers are going to get shelled hard.

G

by the way how would you deal with the outflankers?

G

also are using Steleks list or did you add your own twist to it?

G

Im using mine. I dont like min squads and mine would probably be a bit tweaked from that. but thats fairly close

Its on page 5

Khan on bike
Command squad on bike w all meltaguns & shields

Bikes (5) w 2x meltagun & MM AB; 2 combat squads
Bikes as above
Bikes as above

Scout bikes (3) w grenade launchers

LS Typhoon (2) w MM
LS Typhoon as above

Whirlwind (3)

Still under 1800 points.

G

@gar

your still missing the point.

Responses to your points first
1)You have to choose fire lanes. Your now telling me you'll be able to kill the deepstriking dread while killing all my bikes. You need to shoot every single dark lance 2 turns at the dread to make sure it's dead. you need at least. you need to at least fire 3 to keep it from shooting next turn. Emphasis on next. It's already fired this turn and more than likely kept one of your vehicles from shooting. Also i'll be dropping next to the ravagers so it's even odds that it'll be a ravager that doesn't shoot.

2)I'm running 10 choices that can hit 10 units, all fast or landing on the enemy. He/you is running the same amount. maybe one more. And all i need to do with each squad is shock a tank and move on. Each shocked tank then doesn't shoot and possibly doesn't move leaving it open to assault or follow up shots in the next turn. My troops are not paper airplanes. At 30" (how far i'm likely to be from you if you get the first shots off)range you have exactly 9 Plasma cannons that can fire if you don't move or 27 st4 ap3 shots, and 8 dark lances. How is that going to kill 10 units. Your big shot units can only target 3 individual squads or in this case combat squads of 5 bikes. None of which will be without a cover save. Assuming plasma cannons your likely to kill 3-5 members of a combat squad. Remember that you'lll never initially get more than 1 base under the template due to the size of the bases. If you use the 9 shots per ravager you'll kill exactly 2 if i don't have cover/turbo-boost. Your ravagers will be my main target because without them you have no firepower that makes the difference you'd need.

3)I've considered deeply the use of the scouts. Which have, naturally, a scout move at the beginning. Now the transport has a heavy flamer meaning 2 hits on whichever vehicle it gets to. The squad on the other hand will either flame the unit from the downed speeder or assault it. Probably assault as i won't kill your squad in one turn and will be able to move again on my turn. that is of course if i know i'm going first. If i'm going second it could very well be used as A)a distraction unit that puts pressure on you for the bikes to move up B)a support unit for the podding dreadnought or C)I might use it to outflank.

4) I don't get how by giving myself more squads i kill less. If they stay together the units weapons could only target a single raider where as this way if one combat squad downs a raider the second squad can target another (meaning more damage) or can blast the squad that fell out of the raider. And whichs against bikes make me want to cry. Whichs without an agonizer on the charge have might do a wound to the bike unit. Yes it could tie it up for a turn or two but it's hardly game winning my friend.

And as for the slight to not "noticing the obvious" i've actually addressed them several times already and did so again for you. Actually just so we're clear i'll post it one more time for you.

The dreadnought answer is always dark lances without people realizing how many it takes to slow one down.

The wyches comment shouldn't be obvious to anyone as his list has 5 wyches without an agonizer and those are hardly a combat unit against T5 models (though maybe now their all poisoned. I'm in kansas and without my stack of codii(sp ).

And i'm curious as to how st5 and st6 don't count as anti-tank against av10. I ran with great success a tank hunting havoc squad all through 4th with 4 heavy bolters. Granted now the aren't as good as they can't glance destroy rhinos but they can still down a raider or at least stun one very well. In fact odds have 6 st6 shots keeping a raider from shooting or possibly killing it. When your av10 don't knock st5 and st6 weapons. They eat that armor for lunch since they normally come with 3 shots per weapon. And a combat bike squad (5 models, not ravenwing) has (just with bolters) a 83% chance of glancing a raider.

The leadership on the captain isn't the bonus. it's his ability to hit the squads that fall out of the transports while allowing his troops to keep downing transports while he take no wounds in combat due to toughness. Oh and he has few enough attacks that it should take 2 turns for him to win break out of the combat and be free to run around again on ::gasp:: my turn.

Your trying very hard Gar but in reality your falling into the trap of trying to answer why a list is "great" that somebody else posted using the same methods they would use. Blanket statements does not a coversation make. Well reasoned points, movement tactics, synergy between units, odds of weapons damaging units. It's those things that create a good discussion on tactics. But even then it comes down to playing.

@Greenfly

It's a solid list against this one but i really don't like the khan, i'd put something else in there for him since outflank just doesn't seem worth 205 points for me. Same with the command squad but they command is a tough unit so maybe it'll work for you. I've found it points best spend on more units.

@green

Is that the list you would take against me? I will post a 1800 to match

Hulksmash, I'm not sure how you're requiring every DL to be fired at the Dread to destroy it. If you're podding, then you'll either not be getting cover saves against shooting from front and sides, or you'll be getting hit in the rear armor, which S8 enjoys. Either way, I'm doubting it would take that many shots, in reality. Failing that, it's relatively easy to move away from the dread at full speed, leaving you quickly out of range. And again, if I can stun the dread, or immobilize it, that's nearly as good as destroyed.

Against the bikes, the haemonculous' weapon is still really good. Wounds on a fixed 4+ IIRC, with 1/2 chance of punching through your armor, and ignores cover. Flamer templates will still do a number on bikes.

Would it be a game? Probably, if you're good. But I still think the DE list does have the upper hand by its nature. As with most Stelek armies, it's designed to hit you hard in the first few turns, usually without you having a chance to hit back if it's done right. If you survive with little damage done, you'll likely pull around for the comeback win in the later turns.

As to mech eldar, it comes down to who can shoot first. If the Eldar get their shots off, and can do damage to the DE kites, then they'll have the advantage. If the DE get shots off first, it's likely they'll keep the tanks stunned all game. Keep in mind even if the Eldar tanks are stunned, they can still ram those Raiders, who don't get their dodge save!

Ok

G

tzeentchling wrote:
Against the bikes, the haemonculous' weapon is still really good. Wounds on a fixed 4+ IIRC, with 1/2 chance of punching through your armor, and ignores cover. Flamer templates will still do a number on bikes.

its str 4 random ap. Its not a for sure deal but its one of many tricks

That's assuming the xenos ever gets close enough to use the template.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I used to play RW versus DE back in 3e. Sure things have changed a lot since then but back then the RW mobility plus all the mounted melta weapons gave DE fits. If you factor in a good number of landspeeders that will give a SM bike army an edge as they can easily match the speed of the DE skimmers. I used MotRW back then and he gunned down his fair share of DE skimmers with ease... now that he has AV14 that would be a real thorn in the side of the dark kin and could quickly force them out of their game plan.

One way to beat this army with a SM bike/speeder army would be to split your forces and make the DE have to stay in the center of the table, taking them out of their DZ. I think we should also mention that SM bike/speeder armies that can outflank is another big problem for this particular DE army. So there is more than one way to skin this cat as the saying goes.

G

I'll point something out from my own experience in playing a non-optimized DE list (more fluffy than min-maxed) against a variety of Ravenwing armies in 4th edition. I do not know how much this will translate to 5th, as the guy who most commonly plays Ravenwing hasn't been around since 5th came out.

If it is a biker heavy Ravenwing army, I really don't have any trouble with it. If they come close enough to shoot at my units, I have no trouble in assaulting as I wish (using portals to keep the juicy CC troops from being shot up). If they stayed back to avoid being assaulted, I could easily out shoot them with all the S7+ AP2 weaponry that I packed.

However, if the Ravenwing army showed up with four units of landspeeders, I was in a for a world of hurt. Sure, I have weapons that could really do a number on a single speeder, but killing a single speeder out of a squadron of 3 still left enough firepower to eliminate a squad per turn. I remember one tournament where such an army turned my flank with 9 speeders and had me virtually tabled by turn 4.

PS: Oh, yeah, Hulk, with the new Reaver rules, it is actually possible to get an Archon to strength 7 using a piece of wargear called the Animus Vitae, but it is not terribly reliable and taking it requires you to lose some other piece of "standard" wargear that a player might prefer to have. Also, I know that your personal list is more of a Whitescars army than a Ravenwing army, but Ravenwing is the closest thing we have to make comparisons to.

@Tzeenchling

It's just odds. I was giving odds of how many shots it would take against side or front armor to do it. The answer is more than 8 dark lances. Let make the math easy. 6 Dark lances, against av12 is a 43% chance to kill a dread. He only has 8. Hence the statement that to guarentee a kill based on odds he would have to shoot all of them. Oh, and if i'm podding you can bet the pod is to my back either a)giving me a cover save or b)making it a side armor shot if they can't see my back. It requires on average 3 shots to stun a dread which is 3 less shots going down range which is all the dread is for. He's a throwaway disruption unit that might cause damage before he dies. But his value is in the distraction he causes.

As for the haemonculii yes the flamer would hurt but it still takes a 5+ to wound and only negates my save 50% of the time. I'll take those odds especially because if you don't kill me i'm in range to do hurt to your vehicles and your infantry.

And as for the last statement I totally agree except I think it's closer to even though I will give maybe a slight advantage to his army because I literally could not screw up one move or it could cost me the match. But that's all anyone asked was what list could give this a run and at the same time fight other tournement lists. My list isn't the perfect match up for the DE List. It toasts landraider, eldar, loota heavy orks and demon armies. Those are it's best match-ups so far but it could give this one a run too which is enough for me. It's not that steleks list isn't good. It's bloody brutal. It's just not the be all end all that a lot of people think it is for a tournement army.

@Sal

Ah, that makes sense then Sal. White scars and ravenwing while both being bike based are totally different play styles but I can understand the parallel since they look alike a lot of the time.

As for the st7 that is crazy and didn't realize it could get that high. I'd forgotten about the animus actually, been 2 editions since i played dark eldar

Green Blow Fly wrote:Khan on bike
Command squad on bike w all meltaguns & shields

Bikes (5) w 2x meltagun & MM AB; 2 combat squads
Bikes as above
Bikes as above

Scout bikes (3) w grenade launchers

LS Typhoon (2) w MM
LS Typhoon as above

Whirlwind (3)

Still under 1800 points.

G

But, we still get back to the original question: how well would such a list do against the other strong lists that you routinely find fielded against you in larger tournaments. Honestly, I haven't played marines since Rogue Trader, so I cannot legitimately comment on how one playes them, consequently I ask, "What would be the tactics such a list as posted above would do to get wins against the following armies:"

1. Tyranids, either Gozilla or Stealer-shock
2. Mech Eldar/Eldratar
3. Lash/Nurgle Chaos
4. Horde Orks

Assuming such a list could prove effective against all the common tournament lists I mention above, well, then, I look forward to seeing bike-heavy SM lists at the next GT and Adepticon.

I can't say how well it would do against other armies other than theorize... which is a dirty word to some around here.

- Will table steelers, have seen it many times (so not theory here)
- Godzilla ???
Mech Eldar/Eldratar, can be them same as DE
- Lash/Oblit/PM spam ???
- Ork Hordes should be able to beat

G

Hey Green, he was asking for the tactics you'd use against these lists to beat them. Godzilla=Nidzilla, a major MC list (6-8). How would you use your bikes against the lash/oblit/pm army of doom? You don't have to breakdown a play by play but just what would you do, as an overview, to take those armies on with yours? Since that is the main reasoning behind a lot of this post is to create a list that can smash or give a run to the main list while also taking the other major "competitive" builds.

I will post some tactica tonight.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I can't say how well it would do against other armies other than theorize... which is a dirty word to some around here.

- Will table steelers, have seen it many times (so not theory here)
- Godzilla ???
Mech Eldar/Eldratar, can be them same as DE
- Lash/Oblit/PM spam ???
- Ork Hordes should be able to beat

G

Yeah, sorry, I mean 'Nidzilla; I had an elder moment there.

I think the mobility of the bike list combined with judicial use of the Whirlwhinds could help in a fight against Orks, actually. I fear that Lash Sorcerer/Obliterator spam would really hurt the bikes since there are relatively small units that can be removed in detail.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more interested I am in seeing how this would work. It might actually inspire me to try something different with Marines.

me too

: )

Okay here is my mini tactica based 80% on theory hammer. If anyone sees any glaring mistakes feel free to call me out.

Army composition for SM biker/landspeeder army:

Khan on bike (K)
Command squad on bike w all meltaguns & shields (CS)

Bikes (5) w 2x meltagun & MM AB; 2 combat squads (B1A & B1B)
Bikes as above (B2A & B2B)
Bikes as above (B3A & B3B)

B1 combat squads run with 2x meltagun & power fist, B2 combat squads run with MM toting AB

Scout bikes (3) w grenade launchers (S)

LS Typhoon (2) w MM (LS1)
LS Typhoon as above (LS2)

Whirlwind (3) (WW1, WW2 & WW3)

The main reason for the Khan is the out flank special rule plus hit and run for the bikes is powerful and is a good substitute for the vanilla combat tactics. The scout bikers take up a FA slot - certainly two more LS Typhoons would do a lot more damage but I like to have one cheap throw away unit... it's tactical. The extra points left over would go into purchasing power fist for the biker sergeants plus possibly bulk up the scout squad a bit.

++ Tactica versus DE skimmer heavy/Mech Eldar lists ++
Start with everything held in reserve and come in using the outflank special rule to shoot at the skimmers. It is risky in the fact that you can come in piece meal, not do enough damage, then get toasted... but it prevents the DE from taking the first turn to vaporize your army if they get to go first. If there is nothing in range for the bike units when they come in then turbo boost for the save... main problem with this plan B tactic is lots of enemy shooting that forces a lot of saves for relatively small squads plus the template weapons that ignore cover. Still some plan B is better than none. The speeders are going to get their shots off though so these are your money units. Each skimmer can potentially take up to three S8 shots, so you can count on dropping some when they come in. I think a savy DE player would try to force the game into a war of attrition so the luck of the dice could factor heavily into such a game.

You could also opt to go for the inverted V formation - would look something like this:


B1A-------------------------------------B2A = FRONT
-----B3A-------------------------------(S)--
----------B1B----------------------B2B----
--------------B3B------------K&CS--------
------------------LS1-----LS2-------------
--------------------------------------------
--WW1-------------WW2---------WW3-- = BACK

This is for playing aggressively and hoping for the 1st turn... 50/50 plus Seize the Initiative are your friends. The scouts can branch off immediately with their scout move turbo boosting into a solid shooting position. You know they are going to get toasted but it takes some heat off the other units the first turn. Depending on deployment (table quarters) it is possible the scouts could move deep into the enemy table quarter placing more pressure on your opponent.

This formation is a net to trap the DE skimmers. 13 shooty SM units versus 12 DE skimmers. The Whirlwinds keep the skimmers from clumping and thus denying cover saves form each other. Where can the skimmers go and not be in a position to be shot at?

++ Tactica versus Tyranid stealer shock list ++
Should be an easy win and I have seen RW roll these xenos armies. Stealer shock armies cannot bring enough shooting to bare to take out large blocks of your SM units plus they do not have the requisite speed needed to catch the SM army. If the stealers hide behind a wall of MC then outrange the wall with your skimmers and start poking holes. As the MCs are picked off then start pounding the stealers. Whirlwinds can immediately start pounding stealers with death from above... aka ordnance. Bikes hang back until second half of game to move in and claim/contest objectives.

++ Tactica versus Tyranid Godzilla list ++
Again use your speed to outrange the big bugs and blast them with the speeders while the whirlwinds focus on gaunts and stealers. Basically nothing can hide can from your guns. Mid to late game turns bikes and speeders start moving up to claim/contest objectives.

Tactica versus Ork Horde
Outflank to pull the Snikrot on Lootas... take them out first... you might have to sacrifice a couple bike squads but it is worth it... once the Lootas are gone orks can no longer outrange your army. Again use speed to outrange the horde while simultaneously snapping off bursts of suppressing fire into the hordes. Whirlwinds sit back and pound horde all day long.

Tactica versus Lash/Oblit/PM spam
Not sure on this one yet... will have to cogitate on this for a day or so.

G

Mostly sound tactics Greenfly. Only real problem is to combat squad in the new codex you need to be at 8 bikes and an attack bike, totally 10 wound which break down into 1-5 bike squad and 1-4 bike + attack bike squad. I wouldn't actually use the khan as you can just keep the troops off the table and move on on turn one. sure you give up some of your distance but it beats possibly coming in on a side and your force comes in together with a single unit in front turbo boosting for cover save

All your tactics on the other lists are solid so I could see this competing but then I'm biased since i run a biker list too

in that case I will have to rework the bike squads for the list.

Thanks!

G

Stelek got banned?

That's a tragedy! Its his thread in here and we NEED his replies, arrogant though they may be! I think he is definitely wrong to claim too much for the list. It's good enough, but tthere is no way to hide that many raiders and there is no reason to imagine that he will be able to fly with "impunity" inflicting all hits without suffering any. How do those net things get to work or the flamers, if he is using his mobility to avoid enemy shooting ANF also moving in close to template range with "impunity". That's nonsense.

As I said with my proposed counter, you don't get everything your way. Against nidzilla if you are zooming into net and template range, you are going to be ripped to pieces by claws, and up to 30" you still have to cope with 6 strength 8 pie plates!

The list I used to challenge this DE concept would trouble him with a good player unless the DE totally got all the dice luck.

But please UNBAN the guy!

We need our STELEK!

OTG.

Here it is Green

1 archon @ 146
agoniser, poison blades, combat drugs, shadow field, Tormentor helm, haywire and plasma grenades

3xHaemonculi @ 51
Scissorhands, Destructor, Haywire and plasma grenades

3xraider squads 9 man @ 157
blaster, splinter cannon, Nightshields

2xraider squad 10 man @ 182
blaster, splinter cannon, syrabite, Poison blades, Haywire and plasma grenades, Nightshields

1 wyche squad 9 man @ 254
succubus, agoniser, goblet of spite, wyche weapons, blasterx2, screaming jets, Nightshields

2xRavager @ 145
3 disintergrators, Horrorfex, nightshields

1 Ravager @ 125
3 dark lance, Nightshields

1803

Just over but ive been super busy lately so I just trimmed down what I already put up. Sorry for the delay