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ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
The Chimeras have to move to get into range, and frankly I'm not that scared of 3 BS3 S6 shots from a multilaser.

I should mention all but one chimera contains a squad of guard with one lascanon. They also have hull mounted heavy bolters.

So it's a typical guard mech army.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Everything else won't have range, so...I'll deal with them once I've killed the stuff he has that can hit me.

I'm not sure how a 36" weapon deployed at least 12" foreward has no range. That can fire all the way up to your table edge. You can straddle a corner (if the entire opposing army is in the middle), but thats also going to limit your own firing arcs, ensure that you can't shoot at all, and packs your entire army closer together.

Nightshields remove the range.

I have 12" move and fire, he doesn't.

I can get to a flank faster than he can by a factor of 2, so even if he moves everything on one side 12" I will still be picking on only part of his army.

Standard DE tactics, really. Do you expect me to get in a stand and fight battle with anybody?

Why packing my army close together has any bearing is beyond me. One battlecannon shot that can glance another raider on a 6? Ok, let me have it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
I'm not sure what his sentinels have got, but if they'll have range, they get punked to

Usually lascanons scout deployed into cover.

Which is meaningless, given it's a vehicle and probably won't get any cover saves--and especially meaningless since vehicle squadrons with AV10 open topped are even easier to destroy than my Raiders are.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
A marine spam army has 80+ marines in it and no armor. That's difficult to get rid of, to say the least

50 tac marines
10 scouts
10 assault marines
5 terminators

Yeah, I'm five short if the minimum number is 80. I figured it was pretty spammy.

You have 60 marines.

Scouts are not marines, sorry.

Terminators aren't marines either.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
m assuming AI predator means ac + hb. So your AC can hurt, but your HB aren't scary.

Aren't raiders 10/10/10?

Yes, and your HB is going to fire at me instead of your AC?

You move, you fire one weapon. Why you'd fire 3 S5 shots instead of 2 S7 shots is beyond me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Not sure where you get the impression this army doesn't have alot of firepower.

It has about 4x yours.

Not really... 21 heavy bolter shots, six autocanon shots, three meltas three flamers, 4 assault canon shots, eight missiles per turn +2 on the first, a couple of plasma pistols here and there and whatever bolter fire i can pull up on a turn. If your going to count all of your own shots, I'm going to assume you're in range. If your sticking to 48" you have half none of my firepower.

Also I said volume not amount. You have several units that put out an enormous amount of firepower, but only at a single target. A ravager is wasting its shots firing at a five man squad.

Allright, I'll theoryhammer it down for you.

Your meltas have a 6" range.
Your plasma pistols have a 6" range.
Your assault cannon has a 18" range.
Your bolters that don't move have a 18" range.
Your bolters that do move, have a 6" range.
Your heavy bolters have a 30" range.
Your autocannons and missile launchers have a 42" range.

The actual amount of missiles you have is 8. HK's are neat but don't count as 10 missile launchers.

So I pop your Dread, and your Termies.

Then I start killing your 5 man marine squads in the back.

Then what? You want to run forward?

Ok, run forward into the guns. I kill your 5 man squads in front, and still kill your squads in the back.

I will allow your assault marines to assault (and kill) anything you want it to.
Then they get fried because they are bunched up.

In no case do you ever get to fire more than your missile launchers and autocannons at me.

Once those units are gone, you can run forward or sit back...doesn't matter, you have few options and since you've apparently never played this army before...

Good luck dropping a raider with 3 bolter shots at 18" off those combat squad units.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Shotgun scouts have a missile launcher? Termie squads have a cyclone launcher? Dreads have missile launchers?

5 missile tac squads
2 cyclone shots from the termies
one dread with an assault canon and missile launcher
2 hunter killer missiles
If I am using the rhinos as LOS denial they will fire their HK missiles first turn at whatever is deemed appropriate.

The scouts have a heavy bolter and the other dread is a multi melta and flamer (I usually hide it behind a rhino until its needed)

So the Rhinos cannot LOS denial my army, but that aside....

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
So anyway, I'd probably roll your gunline up from one side of the table to the other.

This is why no one likes talking to you on this board. Your a hugely arrogant dick.

Thanks for that.

You talk like you can crush this army, but in reality...you have some preds and 1 dread, and five 5 man squads that are threats to this army.

Then I kill that stuff, and you beat my army how? With assault troops that hit on 6+? Shotgun scouts? 5 man tactical squads with a 6" range when they move?

Be serious.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
I'm not sure if you know this or not, but you have a battleforce army. You don't have a marine spam army

I'm so glad you've informed me having over 80 models in a 2000 point game with space marines isn't a spam army. Your insight into the nomenclature is as appreciated as it is helpful. I know its not the spammiest of all lists, but the armor is barebones enough to not really impact the bottom line a significant amount.

You are missing quite a few marines. 2 or 3 preds, 2 dreads...2 rhinos...seems like stuff is missing to me.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
nyway, this list is specifically designed to deal with small groups of enemies--and large ones too.

Translation: This list can defeat anyone at all times no matter what, just like all of my lists. Why do you people even play this game, your just going to lose?

Certainly not true. Your battleforce list? Yes, I can pick it apart. Thinking you can take a static gunline list without it being a IG gunline and still take down a mobile nightshield army is just nuts.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Stelek wrote:
Anyway, this list is specifically designed to deal with small groups of enemies--and large ones too. Shredders kill 5 man marine squads just as well as they kill Orks. Thinking otherwise is folly. You can be spread out if you like, and I'll claim 3 of your 5 mans a turn without much effort--the ravagers will take them out. Then I have everything else to fire at you as needed. I can just move 6" and fire the Dark Lance in the rear of your army while the troops onboard my raiders kill stuff in the front. Combat squad'd marine armies don't like this army one bit, because your strength is actually having 10 guys manning those missile launchers so it's much more difficult for me to get rid of them. 5 man? Yes please.

Yeah, but you can't both stay out of range of everything and use the vast majority of your own firepower. Six darklances? Oh geez, half will hit and one in three of those will probably be saved. If your using the shredders at all than the vast majority of my army is also in range, and if the ravagers are all your putting foreward your not going to kill enough to prevent a sizable return.

This is where these discussions break down with you. You're likely to bring up some overly situational and often times unfeasible reason why neither lists I mentioned have a snowballs chance in hell against your superlist (like saying nothing with a 36" range has range on your army when nothing you have shoots beyond that). While doing so you will also be highly condescending. We get it, you make good lists. But why do you even post on the forum at all? Clearly your just as happy putting it up on a blog. Why not just leave out the boasting phase, where you insinuate that an army can only win if designed and run by yourself? I'm not saying either list mentioned will roll you, or even win, but you act as if nothing can touch your bronzed superlists.

I wrote my reasons why your battleforce boxed set won't work.

You tell me how it does.

I don't need to move my army into range until I can do so with impunity.

You don't have the long range threats to knock the list down, even with 5 missile launchers and some autocannons.

IG do, and they still have a problem with it.

A good IG army has alot more firepower than your list does, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd beat it when there's 10 heavy weapons in every table quarter--and everything has a 48" range.

Stelek, since this is DE (not an army ive played before)
what sort of fire power can this draw?
never been interested, but large ammounts of fire power comming out of the shadows sounds pretty good to me.

and would an ork KOS thats very bike heavy dent this? sure you can shoot alot, but the bikes should be fast enough to be getting into HTH on the 2nd turn, 3rd if they have to make stops for cover.

You have 60 marines.

Scouts are not marines, sorry.

Terminators aren't marines either

So you're on the marine spam definition committee now?

You talk like you can crush this army, but in reality...you have some preds and 1 dread, and five 5 man squads that are threats to this army.

Actually, I asked how you would deal with the force. Not that it would roll you. In fact I made special mention in my last post stating that.

In no case do you ever get to fire more than your missile launchers and autocannons at me.

Considering the fact that I'm shooting at raiders, I'm not sure why thats not enough. Will I kill everything? Of course not, but I'll cause some damage. Something you seem to absolutely refuse to acknowledge.

I don't need to move my army into range until I can do so with impunity.

So... What? If you go first your army moves up and kills how much exactly? And why exactly don't I get to fire back? Your max range is 36" Any shots you are capable of taking are going to allow me to fire back. If I take the first turn then even more so, as I will have likely sprinted the forward squads into better positions, and repositioned the forces on my flanks to better prepare for a charge. You have a good chance of victory, I never once said you didn't. But you're not going to roll my army like a god damn rug. This is the exact same conversation the board had with your land raider spam list. Yeah its scary, all good lists are. But you never once acted like it had a chance of losing, and you viciously lashed out at anyone with a different opinion. Grow the hell up.

Shuma: Didn't you get the memo? Stelek is 40k Jeebus!

Duh!



Ozymandias, King of Kings

All lists can lose.

You pointed out a list to me.

I told you how to beat it with the list I use.

You ranted on me.

What more is there to say?

I told you how to beat it with the list I use.

You did, and you did it in a rude and unnecessary way.

What more is there to say?

Its not what you say, its how you say it. How about being a little more humble in presenting your ideas in the future? Anonymity doesn't destroy the need for civility.

Shuma, while Stelek may not always be the most tactful person he is correct. This list would annhilitate marine spam in a heartbeat. Those ravagers can EASILY kill a tan man marine squad a piece. Just the other day I inflicted 30 hits on a unit that deep struck onto the field. That turned into 24 str 7 ap 2 wounds. Doesnt matter what you are you are dead. Now Stelek has 3 of those specific types of ravagers that would target ANYTHING that could retaliate. At the same time the lances focus on the preds or dreads to hopefully keep them from shooting. It really is a devestating list. The only thing I dont like about it, which ive asked him about, is the minimum warrior squads. Other then that, Barring gakky dice, you stand very little chance to defeat it.

I'm guessing the DS'ing unit did not run? Then of course you are going to get 24 wounds, they're nice and clumped up for you. If I were lined up against 9 plasma cannons, you bet your behind I'm spreading out as much as possible to minimize blasts. And those Ravagers are target number one. You know how much firepower it takes to bring down 3 AV 11 open topped vehicles? Not much.

Don't get me wrong, DE are a great army and I play them as well. But to say that you are going to take apart an 80 man Space Marine list, no problem, it horribly simplifying.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The Deep Striking (veiling) unit was Hail Mary in a losing game and didn't run because it would have died anyways. He got three hits on three scatter dice, and only had 24 hits for 18 wounds, not 30 for 24. Not that it matters because the unit was gone regardless.

I wonder if 1250 points is enough to count as an "army" yet, or if I can use that as my get out of loss free card.

The minimum warrior squads hide on their transports as long as needed.

The Dark Lances are there to prevent firing at me, you don't need to kill everything in 40k to win--especially not slow imperial vehicles that are the bottom of the heap (bar the land raider). A stun/shaken result is just as good, and allows you to shred whatever else you need to and concentrate fire elsewhere to take down targets. Then when the time is right, you jump out and give the other guy the business.

It's not unbeatable, it is terribly effective against the standard builds people run.

In 5th where you don't usually bring alot of long range firepower but rely on short-range rapid fire and meltaweapons (a perfectly fine tactic) this army shuts that down.

Then what do you do? I'm usually losing more guys to being shot out of my raider than I am to enemy fire. That's the other reason I run small squads. Might as well not pretend like 2/5 is not better than 4/10 dead. Either I'm pinned or I'm dead/fleeing, and I'd rather not have the extra guys sitting around making solid blast/flamer/rapid fire targets.

@ Aduro: I don't count anything less than 1750 as a 'army'. 1500 is an army missing stuff. 1850-2000 is better.

Given how swarm-oriented the game is becoming, gotta keep the points up cause everyone seems to want 50 guys + lots of toys.

Ozymandias wrote:I'm guessing the DS'ing unit did not run? Then of course you are going to get 24 wounds, they're nice and clumped up for you. If I were lined up against 9 plasma cannons, you bet your behind I'm spreading out as much as possible to minimize blasts. And those Ravagers are target number one. You know how much firepower it takes to bring down 3 AV 11 open topped vehicles? Not much.

So if it's a marine squad, I move up to 24" and put 27 S4 AP3 shots into you...are you still dead? Yes, yes you are.

How much firepower does it take to down a AV11 open topped vehicle?

With AP1 weapons, not much really.

Let's see how many units can deliver that AP1 shot reliably.

Drop pod meltagun squad (which won't be running, so it'll get smoked by the return firepower but ignoring that reality for a moment). Can still scatter and be out of range.
Drop pod dreadnought w/multimelta.
Tau Railheads and broadsides.

So let's see...smurfs have one reliable unit, tau have two.

Seems like everyone else is out of luck.

Yes, IG have cheap drop meltaguns--with no way to control where they drop, so I can't call that reliable.

Oh almost forgot, Legion of the Damned with Multimeltas and Meltaguns are pretty damn reliable and can take a beating from the army.

So back to 5th edition lists...not 4th edition static gunlines which fold to demons and blood angels (and alot of other things).

What kills it? Give me an optimized tournament list and I'll tell you what I think of it's chances.

Everyone seems to think I'm defending my lists and won't listen to critiques.

I post them and wait to see how people react.

Saying 'I'll take my 9 broadsides with target locks and pwn' is not exactly a critique--it's easy to build one-off lists and crush any army once you know what it is.

Now, build an optimized tournament list that can handle mech, horde, MC spam, gunlines, and has merit on it's own...and I'll tell you what I think of it then.

There are very few of those being posted that don't have a huge gaping hole in them that another common army can exploit.

Simple as that. Show me the money.

I faced a list like this last year - it was a "Raider Spam" list that had all the possible skimmers you can get in. It had 11 raiders and 3 ravagers for a total of 14 skimmers. All min/maxed with blasters and cannons but no nightshields I think. I lasted 3 or 4 turns (much longer than the other players) but too many raiders to deal with. He claimed it was his tourny list and that he would never play it against friends however, I wondered why would you ever play it then? I guess that's where I am different I suppose.

Yah, 5th only toned down the "Raider Spam" a little with kill points and not letting passengers fire from the raiders beyond 6" but could you imagine if they still let the passengers fire beyond 6"? Thats how bad it got in 4th!

Yes the list is devastating and has been for a couple of years so nothing new there. As for the sprinkling of odd raider upgrades that really didn't do much in 4th, they are situational at best. I suppose if you are going to run 10+ skimmers of min/max squads then go for it otherwise I would not recommend them other than optional.

It's probably unrealistic to expect to see many but a heavy tzeentch daemon army would probably give you fits as well. You don't really need to drop melta shots to kill skimmers when you can land twenty strength four regular ones instead. Though they have plenty of melta to spare in addition. Thats really pitting two alpha strike forces against one another though. Kinda comes down to who can land the first shot.

Again Shuma the tzeentch player has to get really close to be effective. Night shields really do hurt close quarter shooty armies

Amusingly enough, I think my normal Tau list would at least have a /shot/ at this. But then, I'm still running a list with alot of Deathrains (TL Missle Pod) suits and of course, Hammerheads. Raiders, Drop pods and Daemons are making my ability to pop transports increasingly irrelevant, however, and I'm experimenting with other configurations. I think my 4th ed Mech Tau list would actually do /better/ against this list than most of my '5th edition' Tau lists, due to a large number of light transport popping shots with decent range, and my own deep strike ability, combined with the positional relay. However, if I was forced to bring my assets onto the table first ... I'd very shortly be up the brown creek without a paddle. And that's very nearly a /best case/ matchup for the Tau against this army. Honestly, besides Tau and perhaps Drop pod Marines, I'm not at all certain other armies even have the coin-flip's chance of getting wins against this. Most impressive.

Again Shuma the tzeentch player has to get really close to be effective. Night shields really do hurt close quarter shooty armies

The shortest range in the tzeentch army is 18". Every melta equivalent they have is 24". It's not really that daring of a deep strike to arrive within 12", and its par for the course for most daemon players anyway. Tzeentch isn't really a close quarter shooty army when you consider that its basic gun is a three shot bolter that can fire on the move. The shortest range they effectively have any turn other than the one they deep strike on is 24". A large horde of 4+ inv saves would also be questionably difficult to chew threw.

HQ:

Wazdakka - 180
warboss - bike, power klaw, bosspole - 130

Troop:

4 nob bikerz - power klaw, 2 big choppas, pain boy upgrade - 245
4 nob bikerz - power klaw, 2 big choppas, pain boy upgrade - 245
10 bikes - nob, power klaw - 285
10 bikes - nob, power klaw - 285
10 bikes - nob, power klaw - 285

Fast:

3 warbuggys - TL rokkitz - 105
3 warbuggys - TL rokkitz - 105
3 warbuggys - TL rokkitz - 105

2,000 points exact.

not sure how this would do, mainly my fun list with a fluffy side, but i figure the speed and mobility could do something.

Another flaw to your tactic Shuma is IF you fail to kill the ravager, which ONLY the melta can do then you get to suck 3 PC equivs while you are tucked up in a nice little ball. 4+ inv or not thats a lot of wounds and a lot of dead models

Laosiamus wrote:Another flaw to your tactic Shuma is IF you fail to kill the ravager, which ONLY the melta can do then you get to suck 3 PC equivs while you are tucked up in a nice little ball. 4+ inv or not thats a lot of wounds and a lot of dead models

Well considering its a deep strike army, it's not impossible to think one may be getting shots on back armor as well with the horrors. It's also not just a single melta, flamers come in squads. The rest of the squad has a template that auto glances on a 4+ (And since its a template the vehicles would not benefit from the extra wargear or go fast bonuses). Again though, that would require pretty close deep striking. Something daemon army players know very well. Also if the ravagers really are the scariest thing, every horror squad can take bolt of tzeentch on one model for ten points (which they always will, meaning that the army would have a minimum of nine deep striking assault multimeltas).

It's certainly true that if the army missed its deep strikes it would likely suffer terribly for it, but given that it has the ability to kill every raider and ravager on the board in one good turn of deep striking, i would think it could be a tough list to face. I think the biggest flaw in the plan is the 600 dollars worth of metal models required to field a force like this. Also its relative weakness to some other lists.


(Edit Yeah, I just wrote up a quick list. At 2000 you could field 62 horrors in four squads of ten and two of 11, each with the bolt of tzeentch (The assault multi melta). To go along with that is three squads of three flamers, each with the bolt of tzeentch as well as their regular super templates. For HQ's i threw in the bluescribes which are capable of shooting two bolts of tzeentch at two different targets if you roll a 3+ (Otherwise the second shot they shoot is a heavy bolter equivalent). And Fateweaver, which gives every squad within 12" the ability to reroll inv saves and who himself can shoot one bolt of tzeentch and one heavy bolter equivalent at two different targets per turn. Even when you take into account the fact that only half the army deploys at once thats still 6 deep striking multimelta shots, possibly three super flamers, and roughly 93 bolter equivalent shots from just the 1000 points deployed.

Still, as with any daemon army. Good deepstriking is essential.

Im still not completely convinced that it would be as deadly as you think it would. I also think that if your first group fails then your second group is toast

It would be deadly half the time. It would be fully capable of toasting virtually the entire opposing DE force on turn one, but botched deep strikes and a few misses could spell disaster.

One of the nice things about the second wave though is that he would find it near impossible to prevent another 90 bolter shots and six melta shots. Meaning that if the army failed to cause enough damage on the first run, it would get successive chances after. This is in contrast to the DE forces method of picking off the dangerous elements of an army then moving in for the kill. Everything in the tzeentch force would be impossible to negate before it has had at least one chance for a crippling shot. It essentially turns it into a standup shooting match, since the skimmers mobility is negated.

Then you deploy in deep strike denial, and the demon army does nothing.

Sigh.

Stelek wrote:Then you deploy in deep strike denial, and the demon army does nothing.

Sigh.

Rather than sighing mutedly, how about explaining the method by which you accomplish that.

you deploy in such a way where you sacrifice raiders over ravagers and then destroy whats out. OR you go flat out the first turn before anything is on and get your cover save. not that difficutlt to avoid. pray you roll good and I roll bad or you suffer heavy losses

Would that have been so difficult for him to say?

I posted a deep strike denial tactica, didn't I? Don't remember.

Sorry I was too short on time to recreate it.

Anyone that can move 24", reduces your already pathetic range by 6", and can outmove and outshoot you--that's not a good place to be for any army. Demons? Who'd want to play me?

Like taking destructor councils against orks. Proving how big a douchebag one can be isn't the point of 40k. Not for me anyway.

I don't see why multilasers don't bother you? As I see it, if engaged in a battle with chimera-spam, you're in trouble. Your 2000 point army is reduced to 9 dark lances and 9 disintegrators (3 if you're moving much). I'd imagine, especially in a spearhead mission, that the IG would just setup as close to the middle as possible, and if he got first turn, just drive 12" towards your corner and go from there. A dark lance has a 33% chance of doing some sort of damage to a chimera, while the multilaser has a 75% chance of damaging the raider...with the bonus of a +1 to the damage roll. As long as I'm near the center of the board, I can reach you pretty much anywhere.

Add to that the fact that many of the damage results you get will mean very little to the armor player. Weapon destroyed? Still have a heavy bolter (with a 50% chance of doing some kind of damage to a raider). Immobile? I can pop the lascannon gunner out the hatch and start shooting.

It's tough to cram 12 skimmers into a corner and stay consistently at 36", especially with the opponent constantly moving forward. Once you're routinely in 30" range, the vehicles can stop and fire with everything, and you're in much more trouble.

You can choose to hold things in reserve and drive on, but then the chimeras stay in the middle and spread out. Coming in piecemeal just exacerbates the problem for you. You can turboboost to try and get a positional advantage, but the +4 save won't save you from enough shots.

The list I'm think of (that I played at 1500 points) had 7 chimeras and 3 basilisks. At range, the basilisks will
easily kill a vehicle a turn, with an almost auto penetration and 2 damage rolls due to ordinance. Try to get them, and you're too close to the chimeras. Slug with the chimeras, and you get outshot. My list had 8 raiders and 3 ravagers, so I had a decent amount of firepower, but not nearly enough to tackle that many vehicles, especially when mine die much easier than his. To make that fight fair, the darklance would have to be 3 shots and AP1...that's how nasty the multilaser is to raiders.

Anyway...I can see the pod marines and 7 LR of doom lists working well, but this one just isn't clicking for me.

Hrm. I'm actually interested in seeing how such a list could play, but I don't have sufficient Raiders. I might see if a couple of my friends would let me proxy up the missing items just to see how it plays out.

I think Stelek tends to be a little over-confident in claiming how his DE will rule the table. What's that all about?

The list is interesting and good to be sure but the way he imagines it just reducing the enemy to naught, "with impunity" is over the top.

I suggested early in the "debate" that nidzilla might give him some trouble, but he couldn't see that, because he was going to fly freely about the board killing everything and somehow being invisible, untouchable and out of range. REALLY?

If you deploy two Hive tyrants as deeply into the board as possible, give them three tyrant guard each and set them out as a single long wall (The tyrant still counts as guarded irrelevant of LOS), this formation gets to be about 10" across. Deploy two of these with a 24" gap between and you have a pretty big pincer in board middle. Place three Carnifexs behind each HQ and they all get 4+ cover saves from frontal angles. Places termagents all around and the formations expand to over 16" wide (each) and now all the Tyrant Guard have 4+ cover saves. That is a lot of damned board denied Stelek! The Carnifexes can lose their cover if the formation is flanked but they still have toughness 6 (7?) and 4 wounds each. DE will miss shots and some wound rolls will likely fail, so just where does 9 Dark lance and 9 Plasma cannon shots get to be such certain slaughter? Cover saves bud! Its not always going to be 18 wounds! More like 6! Dear me! Two tyrant guard and some wounds on MCs thats not killing two MC a turn! True that scattering disintegrators will hurt more than scattering barbed stranglers on raiders though. But the monstrous creatures are all spaced so small template can never cause two wounds on them and termagants are cannon fodder, so who cares about them. Kill the cover saves and the real threats will crunch you.

By deploying wide, the flanks are narrow and if the DE try to run down the sides they will be stuck against the walls and vulnerable to Tyrant devourers followed up by assault. To come into the middle is worse because that is within shooting and assault range of the whole nid army.

Two big clumps of nids 16" wide and separted with a big, 24" can dominate a width of 56" of the board leaving side flanks of 14" each? Dear me! so narrow! They move forward and night shields are soon irrelevant! These skimmers are by some miracle all hiding behind terrain? gak, thats a lot of terrain!

The formations displace all the raiders to the far corners or force them to come into assault range on the flanks or in the middle where they will be shot to pieces by two hive tyrants. Nids always move and shoot so they push on and try to get an assault or to displace the raiders into the middle for crunching. 8 big nids and six guard total 48 wounds while each skimmer is a single kill. Stelek needs 48 GOOD HITS his opponent needs 12!

Thus nids CAN win, if they can get into range to shoot and give themselves some defence. Are the tactics that poor Stelek? Is you list so perfect that it prevents the nids from doing this, by some inherent quality that you made the list so golden that the other player is forbidden to actually see a way of defeating it?

Disembarked DE will be engaged "WITH IMPUNITY" (hahaha!) by the termaganant swarms without number, so its only the raiders that are a concern. Who will win the shootout do you think Stelek? If you are playing the nids Stelek and I am playing the DE, do you think (SINCE YOU SOUND LIKE A GUY WHO WILL ALWAYS WIN- you will find the tactics to make it winnable)

Or the DE might win by dragging their whole force to one side, coming in close using the templates and reducing half of the nids. DE win if they do that because the rest of the nids can't catch the skimmers and Stelek's list works wonders.

I never claimed nid victory was sure, just suggested that it could be troubling. If the nid player gets some dice on his side it would definitely be close.

In the case of Dawn of War on the other hand its a clear DE victory, the nids only have a chance when they can push the DE into the corners. Any kind of piecemeal situation will be a DE win. They can simply move to fast on an open board!

I'm not denying the good prospects of a DE victory here, never was, just saying that it could be a contest!

But what happens if the DE try to take out one side and fail?

Its a battle!

The DE list is definitely good but I think Stelek certaintly or reducing his opponent to tears refelects some psychological issues about power and winning.

His boast about an easy win is part of a pattern of misdirected aggression issues, which bodes poorly for his seven hundred other posts in here! Stelek you make great lists but try presenting them with a bit of humility rather than an invitation for some sessions with a counsellor and we might love you MORE!

Cheer up Stelek, your armies are good, you don't need to rub everyone else's nose in it!

Keep posting, you are one of the most interesting characters in here! And you lists really do rock, and give us all plenty of good ideas for how to get more serious in the army composisition business at which you are the master!

But if you don't mind, I think nidzilla well played does have the potential to offer your list a competitive (fun )battle, if the scenario, going first and terrain aren't all rigged to favour the DE!

Stelek

Do you even understand the concept of playing for FUN?