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I posted a Tactica on my DE army here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Dark_Eldar

I miss anything?

That sounds pretty awesome. Do you have a problem with a lot of your raiders getting shot down if you don't go first and there isn't much cover they are av10 open toped? What would you do to par the list down to 1750?

Yes it's a threat. If it looks like I'm going to be facing a very heavy shooting army (remember I want to go second) I will keep things in reserve or hide my raiders behind my ravagers (so heavy bolter spam doesn't hurt).

Drop 1 wych, 1 warrior. That should bring it down to 1750.
Pop a haemonculi into a wych raider and call it good.

I only wish I had that many Raiders....

I got sick of putting them together and painting them, and now they're a pain to find.

Raiders aren't hard to find. Ebay or you can get that ravager (I think?) boxed set from apocalypse from someplace off the net, I wager.

Nice Stelek.

Its a very fun concept! You actually have nine raiders and three ravagers? Once they all come on from reserve does that even leave any space on the board for the other guys models?

How does this mob fare against Nidzilla? Do you have any problems with six minimal carnifexes with barbed stranglers, two hive tyrants with two guard each and double twinlinked deathspitters giving 12 strength 5 shots with rerolls to hit andto wound/penetrate? 6X8 termagants without number? 72 gaunts can narrow down your movement lanes. Of course you can kill them but they come back on. 8 big nids with guns that can take your fly boys down and claws that certainly will. Hordes of little guys that can irritate, but may get some lucky termagent shots on all that open topped AV10. I suspect it would be a battle.

Mobility is on your side, but the big nids can all move, shoot and assault, and scattering barbed stranglers would likely give you some grief.
What do you think? A contest, or are you sure to plaster them?

OTG

not a bad list there grot, but i would take a flyrant with devourer x2 for the mobility and anti-troop (or low AV tanks)
and maybe have 2 CC fex's and 4 shooty fex's.

Orc Town Grot wrote:Nice Stelek.

Its a very fun concept! You actually have nine raiders and three ravagers? Once they all come on from reserve does that even leave any space on the board for the other guys models?

How does this mob fare against Nidzilla? Do you have any problems with six minimal carnifexes with barbed stranglers, two hive tyrants with two guard each and double twinlinked deathspitters giving 12 strength 5 shots with rerolls to hit andto wound/penetrate? 6X8 termagants without number? 72 gaunts can narrow down your movement lanes. Of course you can kill them but they come back on. 8 big nids with guns that can take your fly boys down and claws that certainly will. Hordes of little guys that can irritate, but may get some lucky termagent shots on all that open topped AV10. I suspect it would be a battle.

Mobility is on your side, but the big nids can all move, shoot and assault, and scattering barbed stranglers would likely give you some grief.
What do you think? A contest, or are you sure to plaster them?

OTG

I believe I have that many. I have alot of silly dark eldar stuff lying about.

Nidzilla isn't scary because they can't ever deal with nightshields, bud. It's an autowin. Really, it is.

Here's how that works:

I sit at 36" and kill 2 MC a turn. They move up, I kill 2 more. They move up, and I kill 2 more. I might be in range then.

Oh and deathspitters don't get re-rolls to penetrate or wound. No living ammo, and that twin-linked rule is for template (i.e. flamers) weapons only.

In short, the blasts don't do much. I think you've got the strength wrong...they'd be S7 on fexes.

Once the tyrants are gone, without number termagaunts disappear quickly.

Barbed stranglers are dangerous. Venom Cannons are the real threat, but everyone seems to be moving away from the best anti-tank ranged weapon the nids have, so who knows if I'll face that?

Dakkafexes and venomfexes would be killed last, the gunfexes first. I think 9 dark lances and 9 plasma cannons should do nicely.

Genius.

I like it!

How the **** do you come up with these tactics?

This tactic makes every dark eldar player i've ever played look like crap, and I frequently lose to them... On the other hand they're the only are I lose to more than 50% of the time.

yermom wrote:How the **** do you come up with these tactics?

This tactic makes every dark eldar player i've ever played look like crap, and I frequently lose to them... On the other hand they're the only are I lose to more than 50% of the time.

I play against really good players and need to be on the bleeding edge to beat them.

They'll kick my if I let 'em.

Do searchlights work against nightshields? IIRC, nightshields add 6" to the range needed to see the vehicles, so a heavy-vehicle army might have a chance.

For instance, an army with lots of dakka predators and HB/AC razorbacks that wins the roll to go first. They can move close enough that the night shields wouldn't help (plus the searchlights if they help), and at that point it's up to terrain and the hope that you can punch through enough smoked vehicles on turn 2/3 when you come in.

Lastly, does "flying over" units to use slave snares count as tank shocking? That's a weird little loophole if not.

tzeentchling wrote:Do searchlights work against nightshields? IIRC, nightshields add 6" to the range needed to see the vehicles, so a heavy-vehicle army might have a chance.

For instance, an army with lots of dakka predators and HB/AC razorbacks that wins the roll to go first. They can move close enough that the night shields wouldn't help (plus the searchlights if they help), and at that point it's up to terrain and the hope that you can punch through enough smoked vehicles on turn 2/3 when you come in.

Lastly, does "flying over" units to use slave snares count as tank shocking? That's a weird little loophole if not.

Searchlights, I believe, have no effect. They only cancel the spotting requirements for the "night fight" spotting rules, and as this is different, spotlights do nothing.

Flying over units, as you already allude, is different than tank shocking them. I suppose something like a ravager could do both if it wished, but they are separate actions. It is a bit odd because, again, it's a special item from a very old rule set.

Flying over units for Slave Snares and tank shocking are two totally different things.

This is position is supported by the GW FAQ ruling dealing with the Slave Snares, and another vehicle upgrade, the Torture Amp, which allows a DE vehicle to perform tank shocks. The ruling specifically states that a DE vehicle with both Slave Snares and a Torture Amp may not both tank shock and inflict wounds with the Snares in the same movement. On the FAQ, it is the first clarification on the second page of the document.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180149_Dark_Eldar_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Use of the Torture Amp is the only way that DE can tank shock, as (unless I am terribly mistaken), no vehicle in the DE Codex has the "tank" designation.

Stelek,

it was like 4 in the morning when I posted yesterday so I was a bit groggy and got some of my facts wrong.

I really like your list, I'm not trying to pick holes in it, but let me try the line that nidzilla done right will trouble you, and give you the reasoning why I think it would be a good match up against this list.

Not claiming they would be able to nail you everytime because the scenario you play and who goes first will effect things. Your list has AWESOME mobility and a few neat tricks, but I'm sure big nids well played would be competitive in most scenarios.

The Hive tyrants should have 2 sets of 2 twin-linked devourers (not deathspitters) and toxin sacs. That's 12 STR 5 shots each with rerolls to hit. I think that will trouble the raiders if they get stuck within 24" with nids moving.

Why will this be a competitive game: Two things: First your list has too many large models so they cannot ALL possibly be hidden, least of all from 6 STR 8 Barbed strangler pie plates (Check your nid codex its 8). Sure the pie plates will be scattering but they only need a few good scatter dice to take down a raider or two, and you will soon be outnumbered. so if the nids gets even one or two good (lucky) shooting turns he will be able to swing the numbers in his favour.

Also DE flamers and templates can only inflict one wound each on MC, so while they are dandy things, Nidzilla lessens some of your best powers a little.

If you max moves to get into clear board or behind cover you will limit your shooting.

How it plays out is that the big nids all set up as close to the midle of the board as possible. If they are in the board middle, you can never get out of their range to "flank them", but they can always march from the centre and muscle you into corners and defensive play.

Nids guns are always assault so they chase you and shoot, you have to stay more than 12" away or get assaulted.

Unlike raiders and their passenger with other than assault weapons, nids can always move shoot and assault so they will be able to corral YOU into the board corners and reduce your mobility to the point that they can actually assault your vehicles and all hits from the MC are highly likely to bring them down.

Raiders fall, all passengers take STR 4 hits with 3 toughness and 5+ saves, break and run off board, run back to Commoragh. A crash is just as bad as getting passed over by slavers nets (I'm not familiar with either of the upgrades you mentioned).

I'm sure you are a good player and can beat up nidzilla, I'm not trying to out Stelek you, but repeating with the clarity of a bit more sleep that it would be a contest and a good nid player would be able to give you heaps of trouble. It would be competitive. IT would be FUN.

If he has skill and uses sound movement he needs only a little scatter dice and penetration luck.

Another point is my list was vague. I'm sure you could improve my nid list to make it more effective against yours.

What do you think? I wish I could actually test out this battle on a real table.

I live in Korean and don't have 6 carnifexs anyway, but I hope you can find someone to try out these two forces, it would be really interesting to know.

OTG

I've played against Nidzilla (I own it) with my Dark Eldar.

Anytime I put nightshields on, Nidzilla loses.

Here's the key parts you don't seem to know.

Raiders are fast, so I can move 12" and still fire.

Raiders are open-topped, so I only take S3 hits on 5 guys.
2.5 wounds. If I save just one, I take no morale checks. If I don't save, I am LD8.

Nidzilla has range to my Raiders with full movement and barbed stranglers/venom cannons only.

My weapons are nose mounted, so those barbed stranglers have a 270 degree arc to scatter off of me and do squat.

Venom Cannons are much more dangerous. Guess which fexes die first? Yes, those with VC. Now if the Hive Tyrants have guards and VC, that's a problem because it's alot easier to get cover saves on that unit than it is on fexes. Thankfully, they can only down 1 raider a turn and people still run slowed flyrants.

Deathspitters have a 18" range. Devourers, they have a 12" range. If they ever fire on my raiders, I let them out of pity.

Before you say they don't, yes...they do. Nightshields.

Utter win against Nidzilla. Even setup 12" in. I can dance around them all day. I know, I've done it.

9 Dark Lances and 9 Plasma Cannons really is 2 MC dead a turn. So 2/3 Gunfexes drop turn 1. Last Gunfex drops turn 2. If there is a gun tyrant around, he starts getting pounded.

It's not heaps of trouble, competitive, or really a fun game. It's picking apart an inferior army at range that can't do anything back.

Like Tau vs Nidzilla.

Even without such a focused list as Stelek has posted, I have never found any variety of Tyranid list to be difficult against my DE.

DE have too many weapons that ignore the armor saves that any 'Nid can have, and too many weapons that inflict power weapon wounds regardless of toughness.

As usual, it certainly an interesting take on an army's list. Going through the standard builds out there, I can see it doing well against many...pod marines gets masses of destructors and disintegrators, hordes get splinter cannons/shredders/destructors/slave snares, etc.

I think DE certainly have the advantage against nidzilla in general. This particular list doesn't spam dark lances and/or agonizers, so it's not as optimized as possible, but it's got enough to be competitive.

I wonder, though, how well it would do against armor spam...particularly against the land raider spam mentioned previously. 9 dark lances is kind of light in general, and while the ravagers can help, they aren't ideal. You're looking at a 2/27 chance to destroy a land raider with a DL shot...sure, you can whittle them down with destroyed weapons and immobilizations, but their return fire will do more significant damage every turn.

I'm also curious about your thoughts on Necrons. I assume the game plan would be to ignore monoliths and go for the phase out, while the necron will probably gun for your ravagers first. With no real melee elements, which seem to be the best way for killing masses of necrons, I wonder how you see that fight evolving.

Using similar lists, I've found myself leaning toward arming ravagers with 1 DL and 2 disi. Two blasts are usually effective enough if the enemy is bunched up (after a deepstrike, for example), and if the enemy is dispersed, it makes even less of a difference. When enemy armor IS an issue, though, or single models with FNP are running around, those extra DLs have proven pretty handy.

Why do you find the shredders so much better than the blasters? You've got a good deal of anti-horde without them, plenty of anti-drop troops stuff with the disi and destructors...it would seem more anti-armor/monstrous creature would be best?

Double post...love Iraqi internet!

Actually, Devourer's are 18". That's all i'm adding because i've learned it's just best not to try and discuss armies with stelek. It's the best army ever stelek

I believe that he is listing those ranges on the devourer etc due to the nightshield. Seems to me that Nidzilla has a hard time vs mech in general. Even granting the fact that DE are open topped they still have a massive movement advantage....which vs slow moving nid MCs means they will probably win.

looks good for objectives. Sadly its only hope in KPs is to table.

Hulksmash wrote:Actually, Devourer's are 18". That's all i'm adding because i've learned it's just best not to try and discuss armies with stelek. It's the best army ever stelek

grimnar84 wrote:I believe that he is listing those ranges on the devourer etc due to the nightshield. Seems to me that Nidzilla has a hard time vs mech in general. Even granting the fact that DE are open topped they still have a massive movement advantage....which vs slow moving nid MCs means they will probably win.

Correct, 18" - 6" = 12" devourers.

Nid MC has no reasonable chance against this list.

How's that for fair?

Darkness wrote:looks good for objectives. Sadly its only hope in KPs is to table.

Sadly, this simply isn't so.

Even with alot of KP, vehicles are difficult as hell to get rid of.

In the 5th edition game, where you run multimeltas and meltaguns as your tank killing weapons...yeah, you won't be scoring many KP's when you can't fire.

You'll sure give them up though.

Grimaldi wrote:As usual, it certainly an interesting take on an army's list. Going through the standard builds out there, I can see it doing well against many...pod marines gets masses of destructors and disintegrators, hordes get splinter cannons/shredders/destructors/slave snares, etc.

Thanks.

Nobody likes Shredders.

Grimaldi wrote:I think DE certainly have the advantage against nidzilla in general. This particular list doesn't spam dark lances and/or agonizers, so it's not as optimized as possible, but it's got enough to be competitive.

Nidzilla loses 3 dakkafexes (unable to fire, ever) right away. Just can't do anything, so run around is all they do.
You kill their 3 gunfexes, usually in 2 turns with this kind of firepower.
Then you spend 2 turns moving up and pounding the tyrants dead with vehicle firepower while the guys onboard trash the nid troops.

Game over?

Grimaldi wrote:I wonder, though, how well it would do against armor spam...particularly against the land raider spam mentioned previously. 9 dark lances is kind of light in general, and while the ravagers can help, they aren't ideal. You're looking at a 2/27 chance to destroy a land raider with a DL shot...sure, you can whittle them down with destroyed weapons and immobilizations, but their return fire will do more significant damage every turn.

Sure armor spam is a pain. No AP1 hurts, but DE don't get AP1, so...you deal with it.

All I really want is to stun them from afar while I destroy what I can elsewhere in his army.

You'd be surprised how ineffective an immobilized LRC is against this army. Don't shoot, ever. Wait for destruction, if I bother.

The chances are a bit off, because the whole point of this army is I can point 9 plasma cannons and 9 dark lances at anything I want to. That usually means whatever that is, is dead.

Nobody I know is willing to run a Land Raider into the teeth of a DE army, simply because you are now running a fancy chimera...and missile launchers take those out just fine.

Everybody with experience knows it, and Black Templar got a big boost with blessed hull for a reason: because both Eldar and DE could shut down their specialized assault raider rush army down in a single turn.

Grimaldi wrote:I'm also curious about your thoughts on Necrons. I assume the game plan would be to ignore monoliths and go for the phase out, while the necron will probably gun for your ravagers first. With no real melee elements, which seem to be the best way for killing masses of necrons, I wonder how you see that fight evolving.

Pound the ranged elements dead, then ignore the Necrons until I win because I can shoot them to pieces and they can't shoot back?

Grimaldi wrote:Using similar lists, I've found myself leaning toward arming ravagers with 1 DL and 2 disi. Two blasts are usually effective enough if the enemy is bunched up (after a deepstrike, for example), and if the enemy is dispersed, it makes even less of a difference. When enemy armor IS an issue, though, or single models with FNP are running around, those extra DLs have proven pretty handy.

9 Dark Lances is, IMO, enough. I want a balanced force, not dedicated to just killing tanks.

I do want to spam templates though, because...S7 plasma blasts with a 42" range are the win, and 3 of them hurts. I scattered way off about 2/9 shots, and got 1-5 guys with the other 7/9.

They are also excellent at moving 12" and firing 9 S4 AP3 shots. Take a Dark Lance in that?

Never. By the way, FNP does not work against the AP2 shots from the plasma cannons.

So, even more win.

Grimaldi wrote:Why do you find the shredders so much better than the blasters? You've got a good deal of anti-horde without them, plenty of anti-drop troops stuff with the disi and destructors...it would seem more anti-armor/monstrous creature would be best?

I can stun tanks (almost guaranteed really) that I hit with them, they wound almost everything on 2+, and having 12 more templates that wound on 2+ is just magic. Add those to the 9 that already exist in the form of plasma, and oh yeah...that's nasty.

I think having all of this firepower in this manner works best for the army.

If you don't have the 21 templates, you don't really terrify horde lists.

If you don't have the ability to fire 4 S4 shots and 1 S8 shot from every raider that moved 6", with more firepower the closer people get to you (splinter weapons, and shredders do add up, after all)...and people WILL get closer to you...well, it just doesn't end up scaring non-horde lists.

It might not seem like much, but being able to just jump out of your transports and utterly destroy just about anything is just crazy good, and that's what this army does.

Why run blasters (good ONLY against armor and MC) when I want to lay down the blast templates that hurt infantry really bad and still do moderately well against MC and lighter vehicles?

Lemme tell ya, putting out 2 S6 blasts or 1 S6 blast and 4 S4 shots, is just devastating when you combine it with a variable strength flamer.

I put 4 haemonculi, my ravagers, and a warrior squad (maybe a wych squad too) into a full nob squad on foot and it went bye bye.

I played 3 games with it today.

Orks, Eldar, and Sisters. It wasn't pretty.

How many KPs does it run? A raider is still a paper airplane, and DL wont kill as many tanks as you like in 5th. Infiltrators, Out flankers, Deep Strikers all have alpha strike on you. Srry but to win a KP mission you need to table your opponent. Also, how do you beat an ork horde?

Darkness wrote:How many KPs does it run? A raider is still a paper airplane, and DL wont kill as many tanks as you like in 5th. Infiltrators, Out flankers, Deep Strikers all have alpha strike on you. Srry but to win a KP mission you need to table your opponent. Also, how do you beat an ork horde?

I remember you now.

I'll answer the questions, and see what happens.

Answers in order:

KP's? Alot. Lemme see. 6 for HQ. 6 for elites. 3 for heavy. Between 8-12 for troops. Pretty much it's maxed out.

A raider has a +1 to be destroyed, that's the only difference between it and any other vehicle on the damage charts. Yes, it has weak armor. So do Rhinos, and you don't see Rhinos being a threat the whole game until eliminated.

DL do what I want them to do--stop enough tanks to let my army work. You make it sound like 9 lance shots @ BS4 is typical of any army, or is somehow lacking. Tri-oblits have less firepower and less mobility, and yet that army does well enough just firing mass lascannons at tanks. Strange you think it's subpar when it isn't.

Infiltrators have alpha strike on me? Really. Let's all count the number of infiltrating armies left in the game, that can actually do damage to a all-raider force. So, the answer there is zero? I'm not counting guard because guard can sit in their deployment with autocannons and shoot me just as well, so...most armies can put one unit near me, maybe down a raider, then get annihilated. Seems like a good trade to me.

Outflankers have alpha strike on me? Really. So subtract all the points spent on outflankers from the enemy army. I alpha strike his onboard stuff, probably from the middle of the board (see: effective range of DE weapons and how 5th edition actually plays). In two turns, I decimate most armies. Now the outflankers arrive, and I'm not near a board edge...so they fail to do anything? i.e. when I'm ready to deal with them, I will?

Deep strikers have alpha strike on me. This is true. Unfortunately, I have more death waiting for them after they blow up 3 raiders, than they can handle (i.e. I alpha strike their whole dropped force dead). So go ahead, drop near me. I won't need all my dark lances against a drop pod list, so I'll wipe you out to a man and deal with the pods later.

How do you beat an Ork horde?

21 blast templates that wound on 2+.
24 S4 shots.

It helps when asking questions, if you answer the obvious ones first. This one qualifies as 'obvious'.

40+ Orks a turn isn't difficult with this list, and the Orks can't do much back.

What are nightshields?

I have no idea, they are the secret weapon that makes this list so good. What are they, how do they work?

-6" on weapon range? Stealth?

Also what was that business about 270 degrees scattering "off your arc"? Don't we simply get to roll the scatter dice? What is "off the arc"/?

I'll concede that this list "owns" nidzilla if I can understand the hows and whys of it.

Stelek wrote:I remember you now.

Funny as I have never posted in response to you.

So let me get this straight. Your army packs between 7-9 DLs and 9 Disentigrators for long range fire power, and no assault. You have night shields to keep you safe, and this is supposed to be the bad ass list?

Correct me if I'm wrong as I do not have my DE codex in front of me, but DL are 36" range and night shields are -6" to opponents range. So in essence, in order for you to shoot at me, your raider has to be within 36", so therefore my 48" range weapons can touch you as -6" is only 42". Also, if I set my long range shooting up, say 6"-12" on the board, then you really cant hide out of range of them.

Against an Ork horde, especially ones that include lootas, you cant realistically kill enough Orks at range before losing your vehicles. 2 Loota units may only be able to kill 2 vehicles a turn, but if those 2vehicles are your ravagers then you have no anti horde. 48" puts them in range on turn 1 or 2 at the latest.

Against Tau, you are out ranged against the hammer heads, and your DLs cant defeat them realistically. Same goes for Eldar with Prisms.

Fact is your shooting beats armies that only bring 36" range or less weapons. 48" range weapons will gun you down. Raiders are paper airplanes, and will drop fast. With the new vehicle damage table 7-9 DLs wont defeat enemy vehicles reliably.

Objectives you have an advantage with so many raiders able to contest objectives. KPs sees you losing.

Darkness wrote:

Stelek wrote:I remember you now.

Against an Ork horde, especially ones that include lootas, you cant realistically kill enough Orks at range before losing your vehicles. 2 Loota units may only be able to kill 2 vehicles a turn, but if those 2vehicles are your ravagers then you have no anti horde. 48" puts them in range on turn 1 or 2 at the latest.


Objectives you have an advantage with so many raiders able to contest objectives. KPs sees you losing.

I played this list in 1750 last night with orks... through one round of firing i lost 47 orks...

we were playing spearhead with 4 objectives. not an insane amount of terrain on the table, but enough terrain to make spreading out 90 ork boys pretty hard in a table quarter. orks go first... i may not play the strongest ork list... but... let's look at it this way... lootas... they roll a one or two for firing on first turn... shots go into a raider... it blows up... the explosion kills two... assuming the raider is not in cover... and then the next movement phase they are just gettig inside another raider anyway. my list runs one unit of lootas, so realistically i'm killing one speeder a turn until i get my nobs in for CC. so i easily pop whatever my nobs charge at, again... oh wait... toughest unit in my army is now all bunched up because of an assault... they put some plates on em... out pop haemonculi hitting with AP D6 flamers... splinter cannons... and all the other special weaps. good times. i can't speak much for playing against them with tau or eldar... but as stelek as said a lot... no army list is unbeatable...


but... i don't need to seem like i am defending him. the list is tough... all there is to it