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Stelek wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Actually, Devourer's are 18". That's all i'm adding because i've learned it's just best not to try and discuss armies with stelek. It's the best army ever stelek

grimnar84 wrote:I believe that he is listing those ranges on the devourer etc due to the nightshield. Seems to me that Nidzilla has a hard time vs mech in general. Even granting the fact that DE are open topped they still have a massive movement advantage....which vs slow moving nid MCs means they will probably win.

Correct, 18" - 6" = 12" devourers.

Nid MC has no reasonable chance against this list.

How's that for fair?

Well to be fair the devourers get an extra 6" for being an assault weapon and able to move so the net threat range is still 18". But you are right in that even 18" threat range isn't going to scare your raiders.

I faced a similar DE army back in 4th several times at the then local Alantic Games shop. I tore it apart each time but then I was running 3 gun fexes, 2 VC tyrants w/ guard, 3 units of warriors with 2 TL DS and a Str 7 VC each, and a flying warriors with TL DS and a VC (rest were genestealers). 9 VC was nothing to scoff at and the auto pinning of transports was just too brutal.

In 5th I could see this list still doing well against DE but Stelek is right in that most Tyranid players are sadly dumping thier VC. The warriors still get cover and provide cover to my 3rd edition gun fexes. Tyrant guard unit also gets cover.

Darkness wrote:
So let me get this straight. Your army packs between 7-9 DLs and 9 Disentigrators for long range fire power, and no assault. You have night shields to keep you safe, and this is supposed to be the bad ass list?

Let's not assume that no assault means no good. The Tau you mention below probably don't have much assault, and they can still do well. I admit I think the ranged fire, especially for 2000 points, is on the weak side. Slightly subpar rolling for a turn or two will really hurt this list.

Darkness wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong as I do not have my DE codex in front of me, but DL are 36" range and night shields are -6" to opponents range. So in essence, in order for you to shoot at me, your raider has to be within 36", so therefore my 48" range weapons can touch you as -6" is only 42". Also, if I set my long range shooting up, say 6"-12" on the board, then you really cant hide out of range of them.

I don't think he's really worried about 48" weapons, as, in the big picture, there really aren't that many of them. 36" and less is where the nightshields really help. Again, I'm not sold on them for their cost, but they can be handy. Heavy bolters, missile pods, scatter lasers, lance weapons....not to mention all sorts of small arms.

Darkness wrote:Against an Ork horde, especially ones that include lootas, you cant realistically kill enough Orks at range before losing your vehicles. 2 Loota units may only be able to kill 2 vehicles a turn, but if those 2vehicles are your ravagers then you have no anti horde. 48" puts them in range on turn 1 or 2 at the latest.

I think you miss the point entirely here....I'd argue this this may be TOO geared toward defeating hordes:
- Slaves snares on the vehicles that inflict D6 str 4 wounds on every unit the drive over
- 6 splinter cannons for 24 S4 AP 5 shots a turn
- 9 disintegrators and 12 shredders for 21 blast templates that wound on 2+
- 6 str 4 variable AP templates
- 18 splinter rifles....sound weak, but 18 str 3 ap 5 rapid fire weapons will put a few orks down every turn.

His goal against orks isn't to sit back and try to out gun them, it's to get close and overwhelm them with a lot of powerful, short ranged weapons.

Darkness wrote:Against Tau, you are out ranged against the hammer heads, and your DLs cant defeat them realistically. Same goes for Eldar with Prisms.

This is kind of silly....I mean, few armies can outrange railguns and fire prisms. 36" guns on 12" mobile platform are about as good as you can get. Str 8 lance weapons do fairly well against them, too...pretty good odds to at least shake/stun them.

Darkness wrote:Fact is your shooting beats armies that only bring 36" range or less weapons. 48" range weapons will gun you down. Raiders are paper airplanes, and will drop fast. With the new vehicle damage table 7-9 DLs wont defeat enemy vehicles reliably.

Who has a lot of 48" weapons? IG? Static marines? I think this list still has a decent chance against those.

I'm curious how Stelek's game testing has gone. Playing around on Vassal, I'm finding the same thing Darkness is commenting on...DLs are not reliable for stopping vehicles, while enemy vehicles can pretty reliably take out raiders every turn. I know he's commented on having a few games so far and doing well, and his opponents in the local area are supposed to be pretty good, but battle reports would be interesting.

As for the kill points issue, Stelek's goal is to table people. That's a heck of a goal, but it is an option. With a lot of the small, elite type armies, he'd have a decent chance.....or armies like orks that may have a lot of models, but few units. Armies with lots of unit would be a problem, though, I think.

I played against a 1000 pt version of this army with my Necrons and hosed em. Destroyers can drop Raiders and Ravagers real fast, and the Dark Lances don't negate their We'll Be Back.

Grimaldi wrote:Who has a lot of 48" weapons? IG? Static marines? I think this list still has a decent chance against those.

Lootas, Oblits, LRs, Preds, missile Pods.
Destroyers, land speeders, Wave Serpents, or anything that can move and shoot really.

There are a lot of long range weapons that will be seen reguarly.

I will remain a skeptic until I witness it.

This army is a sucker punch army and after that, you better hope your opponent cant punch back.

KP is the only real problem is a DE army and each raider is basically holding 2 KP plus the Raider itself for 3 KP flying around.

As for most armies with 36" weapons, most of them if they are smart enough will set up 12 inches up in the middle of the board to see what you got and aside form the DL, most of the army's effectiveness is at 24" (disentegrator at 24"). Orks still get plenty of coversaves and if your getting close for the hemonculi templates, it means they can charge you and close hatch a raider.

I see this army a great anti-elite list but its miles may vary from store to store. My store we have 3 deamon players and they love their Bloodcrushers, MCs, and Plaguebearers and fateweavers. But in another store its swamped with orks and marines. Also there are more and more black templar players out there and they love their anti-lance LRCs.

Its a good list in theory and with ideal terrain, mission, and luck this army can ravage other armies. But when you roll the dice, theory gets tossed out of the window.

While there are some good points above, i think the big picture might be being missed here though i could be wrong. With the movement advantage that the list has and the fact that on an average 4 by 6 table reducing firing distances by 6 inches with the nightshields is a big deal. You can effectively sit back if you want and pick and choose your battles. Or you can rush a single component of the enemy army and hose it down with the massive amounts of shorter ranged firepower the list presents. Even rushing in close the nightshields reduce most basic weapons (the glancing bane of the DE transports) to a much reduced effectiveness. Like vs an ork horde for example....with 3-4 mobs of 30 shoota boys spread out over the table your 18 inch effective range after movement begins to look small when all those raiders are only obliterating one of the ork units strung out on the end.....At least that is how i see the list being used. Could be totally wrong and mathhammering too much.

thehod wrote:

KP is the only real problem is a DE army and each raider is basically holding 2 KP plus the Raider itself for 3 KP flying around.

Are you not reading? Objective = Table

thehod wrote:
As for most armies with 36" weapons, most of them if they are smart enough will set up 12 inches up in the middle of the board to see what you got and aside form the DL, most of the army's effectiveness is at 24" (disentegrator at 24"). Orks still get plenty of coversaves and if your getting close for the hemonculi templates, it means they can charge you and close hatch a raider.

again are you not reading? Objective is to rush up and overwhelm. Who cares about cover saves against flamers?

thehod wrote:

Its a good list in theory and with ideal terrain, mission, and luck this army can ravage other armies. But when you roll the dice, theory gets tossed out of the window.

and THAT is my pet hate. You post in a "tactics" forum and then say "don't bother with tactics and theory because it is based on probabilities.

This is not defending stelek, this is responding to my pet hates of

a) not being constructive
b) posting negative comments because you have an axe to grind and not anything constructive to say (see point a)
c) resorting to the "theoryhammer is worthless because you can't be certain"

Please go away!

edit: and to defuse any arguments alleging hypocricy: encouraging constructive comment = constructive comment

I've played annihilation against a very similar DE list with a Broodlord with lots of 'Stealers and Warrior with Devourer heavy list. I also had 'fexes with Venom Cannons & Stranglers, Dakka Tyrant, and some 'thropes for good measure.

I upgraded the 'stealers to have carpace, feeder, scuttler and toxin (expensive and I'd never normally spend anything on upgrades but otherwise I'd lose them a unit at a time with all that AP5), why I was using 'Stealers is a long story, they wouldn't have been my first choice but they were the main reason for the game in the first place so they had to stay despite them being far from my first choice against any mech based list. Having said that I found the 'Stealers surprisingly good (due to the upgrades) against AV10, with the rending rules against vehicles and rolling up to 40 dice a go I'm going to get enough sixes to hit and again to penetrate. Couple that with being able to outflank and a 13" to 18" charge range and you can't stay too close to the edges, at least giving my heavy hitters a chance.

Devourers worked brilliantly against troops, obviously with combat drugs DE have the edge in HtH making it brutal from my side. I lost but by 1 KP and only in the 6th round did he go ahead, there was simply too many DE KP on the table for me not to be taking a couple a turn on average.

If I was going to do it again I obviously wouldn't bother with 'Stealers and go for winged warriors spam (with +WS +S, rending and devourers) so I can chase down the raiders combined with the same 'fex and tyrant combos. I'd still probably lose but I think its far from an instant win for DE.

@garinator you attack on Hod is uncalled for, and seems rather personal. He seems to have read Steleks OP and these are his concerns. He understands the point, but doesnt think it viable and lists why.

I too feel the same weaknesses in Steleks list. I think its good, just that it doesnt have the ability to table.

Also, anything TheHod says about DE should be listened too, as he has a second overall and best General with DE at GTs.

Faced an unusual army tonight in a 1500 point game. IG, basically with 7 chimeras and 3 basilisks. I've got 8 raiders and 3 ravagers in the list, all with at least 1 dark lance, and I was easily outshot.

Even going first, I only managed to kill 2 chimeras and damage several more over 3 turns, while he destroyed 5 of mine and severely damaged another 2.

Now, i have my doubts as to how effective the list i faced would be in general, but against dark eldar lances, they are pretty tough to deal with.

Garinator

I do not believe in theoryhammer because all too often I have seen odds go way against what is. As I have said before once the dice are rolled, you cannot count on fuzzy math.

If you read my post, I said the army is great for anti-elite where it's main objective of tabling is easy to accomplish. Against 180 ork armies you will have a difficult time tabling and that is even with killing 30/40 orks a turn and assuming you dont lose your own combat effectiveness with return fire. I also present several other armies that are highly resilient to shooting and difficult to table.

For the axe to grind comment, I have no axe to grind and infact have agreed with Stelek with several issues but it would be a disservice to Stelek if I did not present to him my views on the army for him to help refine the list or to better make use of the army.

Thank you Garinator for pointing out what he can do to make a better list but I do personally feel that it was very direct and cold your comments but that is the nature of the internet (hard to really tell the feeling of the message).

As for constructive comments: I suggest dropping the night shields on the raiders and keeping them on the ravagers. saving the points there you can add blasters to the raider squads and have an added anti-tank capability.

Constructive criticism from dictionary.com: criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions

Once again my comments are very straight to the point and tried to show holes in the list and by that manner
showing possible weaknesses = helpful information = constructive comments.
the only thing I did not do was offer possible solutions and I just posted that earlier in this post.

That advice is worthless, thehod.

Drop nightshields to add blasters.

Man, talk about not understanding the army.

It's interesting how often my playing gets denigrated by the same groups over and over again--who just theoryhammer.

Oh well. Thank goodness I am not here to help them, but everyone else.

Yeah, my game may have only been 1000 points, but I had 500 points of near dead weight with the requires Warriors and Lord. When half of my army virtually annihilates his whole army, I'd say it only gets better as the match gets bigger. I noted you didn't try to contradict Destroyers hosing Raiders or Ravagers, or my comment on Dark Lances not keeping them down.

I did, on my blog.

Wasn't worth getting banned replying here.

Sorry.

Oh, I know, I read the blog. You only commented about the game size, and then made a rather weak insult against me, but meh.

Oh, and I'll add that I never said the army was total crap. My friend's version tends to win pretty much every tournament we host locally. I was merely pointing out it's not a sure fire, and one can find ways to beat it.

I was the one he destroyed and destroyers DO mess DE up BUT......You got lucky and you know it lol




It was also KP which is definatly my weakness

Sigh...why do most Stelek threads have to devolve like this? Again, I think what might help are some battle reports to show it in use. Obviously Stelek not only comes up with unusual lists, I have to imagine his gameplay is equally as unusual to make these lists work.

Let's see it in action, see how Stelek pilots it. Of course, that takes a lot of extra work on Stelek's part, but I enjoy reading his theories (as I know others do), and seeing them in action should be enlightening, too.

As for "theory hammer", obviously anything can happen on the tabletop, but the whole point of this thread is to discuss builds and tactics that you think will do well, considering average luck. Otherwise, why bother having a tactics thread in the first place? Heck, what do some of you come to this section for if it all depends on luck anyway?

Aduro wrote:Oh, and I'll add that I never said the army was total crap. My friend's version tends to win pretty much every tournament we host locally. I was merely pointing out it's not a sure fire, and one can find ways to beat it.

That's the same of EVERY army--who said it was sure fire?

I said it was a hell of a lot better than bringing 15 extra wyches and 15 extra warriors to engage in questionable HTH with the former and very bad shooting with the latter.

If there was a perfect army, everyone would play it and 40k would be very boring.

Now play a standard army, one that you actually see in large numbers at tournaments, and play this.

See how well it does then.

Grimaldi wrote:Sigh...why do most Stelek threads have to devolve like this? Again, I think what might help are some battle reports to show it in use. Obviously Stelek not only comes up with unusual lists, I have to imagine his gameplay is equally as unusual to make these lists work.

Let's see it in action, see how Stelek pilots it. Of course, that takes a lot of extra work on Stelek's part, but I enjoy reading his theories (as I know others do), and seeing them in action should be enlightening, too.

Well I didn't take any pictures of my 3 games with it on Saturday.

Next two weekends I'm busy so I can't play much 40k.

I probably need to play some FOW lol got a tournament coming up and haven't played in months.

It interesting... First off, nice list. Different and effective. Barring any hateful glace from dice gods, I can see how it would do well. Ironically, I think the army that would give you the most trouble by far, would be another DE army with any kind of similar mobility. But seeing as there are not enough DE players for one to ever be allowed to play another....Win for you. This army doesn't match my prefrences or play style, but it is nice.

Oh you haven't heard?

Every GT, the following armies always play each other when more than one shows up:

Dark Eldar.
Demonhunters.
Sisters of Battle.
Space Wolves 13th Company was on that list but GW took care of that.

It's a tradition, never fails.

Indeed, at a recent tournament with 2/40 players playing DE, they in fact ended up playing each other in the third round. Conspiracy, wot wot.

Curse you GW and your DE hating ways!
Seriously though, I don't think many armies have enough mobility to counter this list. Maybe an eldar mech army with 9 scatter laser warwalkers? Hmmmm...

Stelek, I'm not usually a fan of yours but I must comment on this list.
I do play dark eldar, and give you full props for this list. It is very unusual in it's build. Generally every tactica about DE say don't waste points on shredders, night shields or slave snares yet you are using all three to excellent effect. This list has several very interesting thoughts put into it that are not at all like I would normally build a dark eldar army. Putting a single haemonculi in every raider is very interesting. I can see the average army you would run into wouldn't have a chance against this. I think a lot of the negative commentary is a little over the top. Saying an obscure build would beat it isn't usually the point. THis army would be very effective against a lot of enemy lists. You have given me some interesting ideas to think about with my own dark eldar. I can see what you mean about screaming jets being too over the top in this type of build.

The only real weaknesses I see are 1. How does the list scale down to smaller games with more common points values for the rest of us, say 1500 - 1750. The other is that the road is a little harder to try and table if you are forced to go first. I can't imagine in any 40k game in 5th edition now that you would ever want to go first, since they fixed the game deployment/go first rules in 5th. It's my favourite thing in the new rules and fixed what I always considered 40ks biggest flaw.

You have given me some new ideas to consider and a way to look at an army I play, that I never would have considered. That's why I read tacticas. It's not the end all be all, but one of the most interesting DE ideas I've read. Full props.

How well does the list fare against more common variants like marine spam? I tend to run 50 marines combat squaded into 10 squads, with the 5 man team in the back taking cover behind the team in the front. They are complimented with a few shotgun scouts, a termie squad, two dreads, cheapo AI preds, and a small assault marine squad for countercharging. The list can put out 10 missile shots on the first turn and a fairly substantial amount of heavy bolter/autocanon fire at range. It doesn't seem like the list is designed to deal with hordes of small targets (like five man squads, or disembarked squads + transport). It's a scary list, definitely. It doesn't look like it has a huge volume of fire.


Or for that matter, how does it deal with Armored company guard? I have a good friend that fields 1 LR, 2 LR Demolishers, 6 chimeras, a hellhound or two, and a fair number of sentinels. His weakness is pretty typically close combat, but your force doesn't seem to possess much. The torrent of fire he's able to lay down is impressive to say the least.

greenskinned git wrote:Stelek, I'm not usually a fan of yours but I must comment on this list.
I do play dark eldar, and give you full props for this list. It is very unusual in it's build. Generally every tactica about DE say don't waste points on shredders, night shields or slave snares yet you are using all three to excellent effect. This list has several very interesting thoughts put into it that are not at all like I would normally build a dark eldar army. Putting a single haemonculi in every raider is very interesting. I can see the average army you would run into wouldn't have a chance against this. I think a lot of the negative commentary is a little over the top. Saying an obscure build would beat it isn't usually the point. THis army would be very effective against a lot of enemy lists. You have given me some interesting ideas to think about with my own dark eldar. I can see what you mean about screaming jets being too over the top in this type of build.

The only real weaknesses I see are 1. How does the list scale down to smaller games with more common points values for the rest of us, say 1500 - 1750. The other is that the road is a little harder to try and table if you are forced to go first. I can't imagine in any 40k game in 5th edition now that you would ever want to go first, since they fixed the game deployment/go first rules in 5th. It's my favourite thing in the new rules and fixed what I always considered 40ks biggest flaw.

You have given me some new ideas to consider and a way to look at an army I play, that I never would have considered. That's why I read tacticas. It's not the end all be all, but one of the most interesting DE ideas I've read. Full props.

It scales down pretty well, really. Drop a couple warrior raiders to get to 1750. Then a Wych squad and some Haemonculi to get to 1500.

Regarding deployment, here are some general questions I always ask.

Do they have 48" range weapons? Missile Launchers, Lascannons, that sort of thing. You can mitigate some of that, but obviously you can't mitigate rail rifles or battlecannons.

Do they have mobility with ranged weapons? Things like Crisis Suits, Eldar Wave Serpents, that sort of thing. You can generally deal with those a little bit, but you have to be careful with those around.

Are they a 4th edition shooting list, which tend to be very static and get overrun when they face a turn 2 assault army (and then get shelved because of how bad that went down)?

Or are they a 5th edition list, where they have alot of multimeltas and meltas (for knocking out tanks) but not alot of firepower beyond 24". There are alot of armies that are being built for 5th edition's big scrum in the middle that do not have a lot of long range weapons built into them.

Going first or second, here's how I handle deploying:

If I go first, setup the ravagers in the middle of my deployment zone (they generally only move 6" so have the shortest effective range turn 1). Setup the Raiders on the outer flanks in even numbers and remember you have the mobility to go anywhere.

If I go second...setup in refused flank, and drop out of his range wherever possible. It's not like it's difficult to figure out where his range is.

So I don't mind going first or second.

ShumaGorath wrote:How well does the list fare against more common variants like marine spam? I tend to run 50 marines combat squaded into 10 squads, with the 5 man team in the back taking cover behind the team in the front. They are complimented with a few shotgun scouts, a termie squad, two dreads, cheapo AI preds, and a small assault marine squad for countercharging. The list can put out 10 missile shots on the first turn and a fairly substantial amount of heavy bolter/autocanon fire at range. It doesn't seem like the list is designed to deal with hordes of small targets (like five man squads, or disembarked squads + transport). It's a scary list, definitely. It doesn't look like it has a huge volume of fire.

Or for that matter, how does it deal with Armored company guard? I have a good friend that fields 1 LR, 2 LR Demolishers, 6 chimeras, a hellhound or two, and a fair number of sentinels. His weakness is pretty typically close combat, but your force doesn't seem to possess much. The torrent of fire he's able to lay down is impressive to say the least.

Well let's see:

RE: Guard.

The LR will have range.

The Chimeras have to move to get into range, and frankly I'm not that scared of 3 BS3 S6 shots from a multilaser.

Everything else won't have range, so...I'll deal with them once I've killed the stuff he has that can hit me.

I'm not sure what his sentinels have got, but if they'll have range, they get punked too.

RE: Marines.

I'm assuming AI predator means ac + hb. So your AC can hurt, but your HB aren't scary.

Shotgun scouts have a missile launcher? Termie squads have a cyclone launcher? Dreads have missile launchers?

So that's 5 marine squads combat squadded, and 5 missiles from 2 dreads/1 scout/1 termie.

I'm pretty sure you'll be spread out to maximize your firing lanes, as being bunched up against 3 ravagers is...well, it's a bad thing. So I should be able to refuse flank into your army, and pick off what I can first.

Probably wherever your terminators (big bases so more likely to hit multiples with plasma fire) and dreads are (easier to take down than 5 marines) is where I'll focus fire.

Then take your marine squads apart.

Not sure where you get the impression this army doesn't have alot of firepower.

It has about 4x yours.

So anyway, I'd probably roll your gunline up from one side of the table to the other.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but you have a battleforce army. You don't have a marine spam army.

A marine spam army has 80+ marines in it and no armor. That's difficult to get rid of, to say the least.

You also don't seem to have techmarines/forgemasters or scouts, so it's not like you have anything I need to assault to dislodge off objectives. Just shooting you will do.

Anyway, this list is specifically designed to deal with small groups of enemies--and large ones too. Shredders kill 5 man marine squads just as well as they kill Orks. Thinking otherwise is folly. You can be spread out if you like, and I'll claim 3 of your 5 mans a turn without much effort--the ravagers will take them out. Then I have everything else to fire at you as needed. I can just move 6" and fire the Dark Lance in the rear of your army while the troops onboard my raiders kill stuff in the front. Combat squad'd marine armies don't like this army one bit, because your strength is actually having 10 guys manning those missile launchers so it's much more difficult for me to get rid of them. 5 man? Yes please.

The Chimeras have to move to get into range, and frankly I'm not that scared of 3 BS3 S6 shots from a multilaser.

I should mention all but one chimera contains a squad of guard with one lascanon. They also have hull mounted heavy bolters.

Everything else won't have range, so...I'll deal with them once I've killed the stuff he has that can hit me.

I'm not sure how a 36" weapon deployed at least 12" foreward has no range. That can fire all the way up to your table edge. You can straddle a corner (if the entire opposing army is in the middle), but thats also going to limit your own firing arcs, ensure that you can't shoot at all, and packs your entire army closer together.

I'm not sure what his sentinels have got, but if they'll have range, they get punked to

Usually lascanons scout deployed into cover.

A marine spam army has 80+ marines in it and no armor. That's difficult to get rid of, to say the least

50 tac marines
10 scouts
10 assault marines
5 terminators

Yeah, I'm five short if the minimum number is 80. I figured it was pretty spammy.

m assuming AI predator means ac + hb. So your AC can hurt, but your HB aren't scary.

Aren't raiders 10/10/10?

Not sure where you get the impression this army doesn't have alot of firepower.

It has about 4x yours.

Not really... 21 heavy bolter shots, six autocanon shots, three meltas three flamers, 4 assault canon shots, eight missiles per turn +2 on the first, a couple of plasma pistols here and there and whatever bolter fire i can pull up on a turn. If your going to count all of your own shots, I'm going to assume you're in range. If your sticking to 48" you have half none of my firepower.

Also I said volume not amount. You have several units that put out an enormous amount of firepower, but only at a single target. A ravager is wasting its shots firing at a five man squad.

Shotgun scouts have a missile launcher? Termie squads have a cyclone launcher? Dreads have missile launchers?

5 missile tac squads
2 cyclone shots from the termies
one dread with an assault canon and missile launcher
2 hunter killer missiles
If I am using the rhinos as LOS denial they will fire their HK missiles first turn at whatever is deemed appropriate.

The scouts have a heavy bolter and the other dread is a multi melta and flamer (I usually hide it behind a rhino until its needed)

So anyway, I'd probably roll your gunline up from one side of the table to the other.

This is why no one likes talking to you on this board. Your a hugely arrogant dick.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, but you have a battleforce army. You don't have a marine spam army

I'm so glad you've informed me having over 80 models in a 2000 point game with space marines isn't a spam army. Your insight into the nomenclature is as appreciated as it is helpful. I know its not the spammiest of all lists, but the armor is barebones enough to not really impact the bottom line a significant amount.

nyway, this list is specifically designed to deal with small groups of enemies--and large ones too.

Translation: This list can defeat anyone at all times no matter what, just like all of my lists. Why do you people even play this game, your just going to lose?

Anyway, this list is specifically designed to deal with small groups of enemies--and large ones too. Shredders kill 5 man marine squads just as well as they kill Orks. Thinking otherwise is folly. You can be spread out if you like, and I'll claim 3 of your 5 mans a turn without much effort--the ravagers will take them out. Then I have everything else to fire at you as needed. I can just move 6" and fire the Dark Lance in the rear of your army while the troops onboard my raiders kill stuff in the front. Combat squad'd marine armies don't like this army one bit, because your strength is actually having 10 guys manning those missile launchers so it's much more difficult for me to get rid of them. 5 man? Yes please.

Yeah, but you can't both stay out of range of everything and use the vast majority of your own firepower. Six darklances? Oh geez, half will hit and one in three of those will probably be saved. If your using the shredders at all than the vast majority of my army is also in range, and if the ravagers are all your putting foreward your not going to kill enough to prevent a sizable return.

This is where these discussions break down with you. You're likely to bring up some overly situational and often times unfeasible reason why neither lists I mentioned have a snowballs chance in hell against your superlist (like saying nothing with a 36" range has range on your army when nothing you have shoots beyond that). While doing so you will also be highly condescending. We get it, you make good lists. But why do you even post on the forum at all? Clearly your just as happy putting it up on a blog. Why not just leave out the boasting phase, where you insinuate that an army can only win if designed and run by yourself? I'm not saying either list mentioned will roll you, or even win, but you act as if nothing can touch your bronzed superlists.