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JD21290 wrote:ok, rough army list (very rough)

marine meatshield spam.
3 units of dev's, 4 lascannons in each.
lascannon razorback for combat squaded tac marines.
you get the idea, lascannon spam where ever possible.

if marines get the 1st turn it would be amusing to see how many raiders drop, but if DE get the 1st turn, im not sure 0_o

I thought the idea was to build another tournament level list that would compete with Stelek's and still perform well against other popular armies/builds. How would all of those lascannons fair against a troop-spamming ork list? Or 'Nids?

Stelek posted a good list and has admitted that Mech Tau would give his DE a competitive game. I'm hoping that more people will post tournament level lists that will perform well against his list as well as the rest of the field. Not to prove Stelek wrong but to see people get creative with their builds.

How many points do you want me to point up for Stelek

guess ill go with making a daemon list.
but then again, even if it would crush him and still be competative, i doubt he would admit it, and the concept of a daemon army bursting his bubble, thats just gotta be done.

anyone got a quick list of DE weps? just need a rough idea of what will be hitting me each turn.

Laosiamus wrote:How many points do you want me to point up for Stelek

I think his list is 2000.

JD21290 wrote:guess ill go with making a daemon list.
but then again, even if it would crush him and still be competative, i doubt he would admit it, and the concept of a daemon army bursting his bubble, thats just gotta be done.

anyone got a quick list of DE weps? just need a rough idea of what will be hitting me each turn.

Stelek's list focuses on a relatively small number of weapons. Some rough information listed below (mods, please edit if this crosses the IP line):

Splinter weapons: S 3, AP 5
Dark lanes: S8, AP2, Lance
Disintegrator: S7, AP2, Blast (or 3 x S4, AP3)
Shredder: S6, AP-, Blast
Destructor: S4, AP d6, Template

The list also has Raiders with Slave Snares that each inflict d6 S4 wounds over every enemy unit moved over during the movement phase.

I didn't include ranges and such, but you can infer that from the rest of the posts.

Back to DE and KP missions versus castling SM...

Don't assume that the SM player will necessarily have a ton of vehicles and lack of long ranged guns. Both the heavy bolter en masse and one Whirlwind can tear them to pieces.

G

1 archon @ 146
agoniser, poison blades, combat drugs, shadow field, Tormentor helm, haywire and plasma grenades

3xHaemonculi @ 51
Scissorhands, Destructor, Haywire and plasma grenades

3xraider squads 9 man @ 157
blaster, splinter cannon, Nightshields

2xraider squad 10 man @ 182
blaster, splinter cannon, syrabite, Poison blades, Haywire and plasma grenades, Nightshields

1 wyche squad 9 man @ 254
succubus, agoniser, goblet of spite, wyche weapons, blasterx2, screaming jets, Nightshields

2xRavager @ 145
3 disintergrators, Horrorfex, nightshields

1 Ravager @ 125
3 dark lance, Nightshields

Reaver Jetbike squad 7 man @ 195
blasterx2

total points 1998

This list plays a bit different from Steleks but is pretty good. I dont totally ignore the H2H potential of the army but its definatly not the forte. At my local shop I dont run 2 dissy ravagers as there is more mech then horde but if I was going to a blah tourney I would. Same goes for the blasters (havent tried the shredders out but I want to)

Obviously 3 Haemonculi go in the raider squads and the Archon goes with the Wyches

I do already know the complaints that Stelek would have, max squads is a waste. Poison blades and the syrabite are a waste. I think he will also complain about the bikes. I do however like to take a succubus and a terrorfex from time to time on my bikes. It works fairly well

Stelek calls this crapwing I think, and I have never used it in a tournie, but I believe it has plenty for the DE to worry about, and I just like bikes. The aim is to close down movement by using the Whirlwinds to hit vehicles and/or force pinning tests, the scouts to infiltrate onto objectives or defend the Whirlwinds and cause a nuisance with sniper rifles and missile launchers, again either immobilising vehicles or forcing the army to take them out. Sammael zips around firing his plasma cannon, immune to instant death and near the apothecary squad, which leaves my speeders and attack bikes to close in before the bikes clean up. Every unit can cause damage to any part of the list, even a good roll on a bolter can glance, but I don't count on that. The Ravenwing are scouting, fearless and have a similar range of movement, and a similar number of units, and if I combat squad I have just about outnumbered this force depending on the Hemonthingies being in Raiders. There are plenty of Heavy Bolters, MultiMeltas, and Plasmas to take out the vehicles as quickly as possible, and even by sacrificing a few speeders and attack bikes, my army has plenty of redundancy. If I got first turn then this list would need to act aggressively, hitting hard on the first turn, basically 'Alpha Striking' the DE before they do it to me, reducing their mobility and range, and if I didn't then I can use the scout move as well as deployment to ensure that I present as few units as possible to that first volley of dark lances, the 'Alpha Strike', before allowing the Whirlwinds and scouts to disrupt the Dark Eldar from 30 to 42" out allowing the rest of my force to move in. If going second I may be tempted to outflank with the multi meltas, but I would need to test that I think, as outflank can be a bit random.

I would be interested to see what you think, as this is an extension of my 1500 pt list being from the UK and all that, we don't tend to play many games above 1500. It is 1990 so I can give a couple of sarges meltabombs, but I like to have a symmetry in my army if I can, seems to work better and play easier. Not sure what it can do against the Ork horde or Nids, but it has a full range of shooting and lots of pinning tests to slow them down.

HQ
Sammeal Jetbike, TL SB, Plasma Cannon

Troops

Attack Squadron 1 6 bike
power weapon
meltagun
meltagun
speeder HB AC
attack bike multimelta

Attack Squadron 2 6 bikes
power weapon
plasma gun
plasma gun
apothecary
attack bike multimelta
Speeder HB AC

Attack Squadron 3 6 bikes
power weapon
melta
melta
attack bike multimelta
Heavy
Whirlwind 1 storm bolter
Whirlwind 1 storm bolter

Elite
Scouts 5 snipers, ML
Scouts 5 snipers, ML

Fast attack
Speeder 1 MM, HF
Speeder 1 HB, HF
Speeder 1 HB, HF


Total 1990

Green Blow Fly wrote:Back to DE and KP missions versus castling SM...

Don't assume that the SM player will necessarily have a ton of vehicles and lack of long ranged guns. Both the heavy bolter en masse and one Whirlwind can tear them to pieces.

G

Very true. Heavy Bolters are better against DE than Lascannons are.

However, does a SM list with "heavy bolters en masse and one Whirlwind" constitute a solid tournament list that can also effectively deal with the currently strong lists you see at large tournaments: Mech Eldar, Steeler Shock, LR Spam, Ork Horde, etc?

Sure it is.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Sure it is.

G

I'm looking forward to the battle reports from your next Grand Tournament with your "heavy bolters en masse and a Whirlwind" Space Marine army.

I've played against Ravenwing with my list before and it was a very lobsided loss for the ravenwing. To many dark lances with to few models to sustain the losses. If anything looks close enough to shoot me down it gets assaulted by my lord then can move 12" disembark 2" fleet D6" and if neccesary take the drug to charge 12"

just a quick note, so the list has to be able to beat steleks and do well in the tourney?
so, what is this perfect list?
no army is good against everyone.
armies have thier prefered enemies so to speak, and then the ones they tend to die against.

all you need against this raider list (as GBF said) is heavy bolter spam, but add in some lascannons for anti-tank in other games.
this list is far from unbeatable.
and im still waiting to see the army set up and in a game

That's actually the point, though; that no army is good against every army.

You see, if you know what your opponent is going to play, anyone can design an army specifically to beat the subject army. The problem is that if you design an army to beat one specific opponent, then it probably won't fare very well against most other opponents because it is too specialized.

Stelek designed this list, from his perspective, to be good against most of the power lists that appear in tournaments today. I leave the accuracy of that belief up to actual games played against quality armies played by quality players. To make the discussion valid from the perspective of the purpose of the army, proposed opponents cannot merely design a list specifically tooled to take on this one. The proposed list must also show that it can deal with the current "strong" lists.

Of course, you cannot design a list that is going to dominate all possible opponents; but if you merely write a list that can trash this one, but cannot handle a 5 Land Raider army, a mobile Mech Eldar army, and/or a 120+ Ork Horde army (all of which are likely to appear across the table from you at a large tournament), then what's the point of the discussion?

Uh, just throwing out ideas on the table here.

How well would mech Eldar list work against this? 3x Prisms + many Serpent with lances with all troops inside transports. Sure that is a lot of dark lances, but mech Eldar have more survivability and equal mobility.

Some one better at math hammer can probably figure this out...

I certainly respect DE armies. The people who play them tend to know what they are doing... which always amps me to play my best against the true eldar. When the sh*t hit the fan and Slaanesh was born dark eldar that survived were doing stuff like taking cruises to far away places... their codex reflects this perfectly in my opinion. DE players won their share of GTs back in the early part of the decade. Heck stormy won two of his six GTs with DE. I think a lot of DE players are still trying to emulate his success with the dark kin.

Anyways I believe that good tactics can give any army the edge then you wait for your opponent to make some fundamental mistakes. DE can be hard hitting but they are fragile no matter how you slice it. Exploiting their weaknesses is the key to winning against them as far as I am concerned.

G

Re GT effectiveness, I've seen almost exactly the same list as Stelek's do pretty well at the GT in 4th edition a couple of years back. It is not exactly a new concept but my assumption would be 5th edition improves its chances considerably.

I quite like this use of the Haemonculi, although I'd be worried about the amount of kill points I'd be giving up here.

That is what I meant to say torgoch... Stelek is not doing anything new with DE that has not already been done... plus veterans know what to expect so without the surprise factor I reckon that this list would not fare that well if it could make it onto a top table.

Saldigen I posted some batreps in the past for my black Ultras in GTs. Use the searchy function... its your friend. How is your searchy fu BTW?

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:That is what I meant to say torgoch... Stelek is not doing anything new with DE that has not already been done... plus veterans know what to expect so without the surprise factor I reckon that this list would not fare that well if it could make it onto a top table.

Saldigen I posted some batreps in the past for my black Ultras in GTs. Use the searchy function... its your friend. How is your searchy fu BTW?

G

Ok, here's are links to every battle report you've posted in the last twelve months.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219356.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219562.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219562.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218703.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213921.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213182.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/211376.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210636.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210636.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205165.page

None of the lists you played in any of them had more than 6 Heavy Bolters (usually with four of them in one unit), and none of the lists had even a single Whirlwind.

So, I'm still waiting (especially now in 5th edition) to see how a "Heavy Bolter en masse with a Whirlwind" SM army performs in a tournament setting, especially in the larger, more competitive tournaments. Personally, I don't know how well or badly such a list would do. I merely want the detractors to put their money where their mouths are and actually play a list in a tournament that they contend could beat this list (or any other list that gets pooh-poohed on these forums) and still beat all (or at least most) of the "power builds" that are out there right now.

BTW, my "search-fu" is about as good as your "theory-fu."

so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

My Bike Heavy Tournement list that I think would have a solid chance against this list and other lists.

Captain on Bike w/Relic Blade-165

Siege Dread(Forgot name) w/Melta, H. Flamer-180
Drop Pod

Siege Dread(Forgot name) w/Melta, H. Flamer-180
Drop Pod

Bike Squadron-310
8 Bikers, 2xMelta, PF, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta

Bike Squadron-310
8 Bikers, 2xMelta, PF, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta

Bike Squadron-300
8 Bikers, 2xFlamer, PF, Attack Bike w/Multi-melta

Scout Squad-175
4xSR's, 1xHB, 4xCCW+BP, PF, Combi-Flamer

Attack Bike-80
2xHB's

Landspeeder Storm(60)
HF

Pts:1770

This is obviously for a lower point value. I need to drop 20 points somewhere which won't be that hard but basically i've got a solid list with good range that can break into a lot of smaller units. Mobility. Lots of shots for hordes. Lots of scoring units. Lots of firepower to deal with big tanks. The Bolters (bane of silly eldar tanks) have a 30" range which will help with stunning units for the next round of shooting. It is lacking in long range firepower but forces the short range fire fights. It's also lacking in solid combat units but I don't feel like I need them as much in 5ed as i did in 4th.

With the last 230 at 2000 I might consider a decent sized unit of Sternguard, or termies, or another speeder mounted scout squad, or 2 Landspeeders w/the missile launchers w/random add ons. thinking about it probably the last option as i love the range and it's great against hordes and meq.

Just a list that is a solid tourney list and give this list a run.

Saldiven wrote: Personally, I don't know how well or badly such a list would do. I merely want the detractors to put their money where their mouths are and actually play a list in a tournament that they contend could beat this list (or any other list that gets pooh-poohed on these forums) and still beat all (or at least most) of the "power builds" that are out there right now.

BTW, my "search-fu" is about as good as your "theory-fu."

Just a few quick thoughts.

This is a 2000 point list isn't it? I'm not sure how it scales down to the GT game size (the GT is 1500). I doubt it would do well against Ravenwing, who will just turbo-boost through those shots, Farsight Tau, who will simply deep-strike and kill 5 hulls the turn they arrive and bouce the return fire with sheild drones, or Orks, which it can't kill and have lootas and S4 basic weapons to deal with the raiders. I imagine Chaos players would deep strike the obliterators to kill ravagers and advance the plague marines to kill the raiders with bolter fire. All these are top table builds.

I can't comment on the new marines, but I doubt they are a top table army and don't really fit your request (although i may well be proved wrong over the next month!). It would do well against Eldar, unless the Eldar had jetlocks and lots of rangers.

There are two fundamental flaws in the build. Firstly, the army relies on distance to the extent that it looks very draw-ish. I'd think you'd need the tank-shock option, simply so you can start rushing camped objectives in turn 5. Which brings me to the second point: this is a second turn army in a gaming world where no-one's wanted the first turn since 3rd edition. 50% of the games look like losses on the basis that you are using AV10 open-topped vehicles containing 5 guardsmen to try and claim things.

It's a concentrated fire army and if you don't get the chance to go second you focus your force on a small part of his or if he stayed off the table then move as one, make him deploy when he comes on one way and redeploy using your speed. Keep in mind that going first isn't that bad as you: a)get the chance to smash a small part of his army based on your speed or b)if he keeps his stuff off when it comes on most of the weapons that can see your troops can't fire.

Just some thoughts, I do like the list. It's just not unbeatable though I think the flaws you pointed out are the wrong ones and are more than made up by properly using the list.

Oh and in the US it's either 1750 for the GT's and most Indies or it's 2k. Depends on where your at and which one your attending. I haven't made a 1500 point army in like 8 years or so

Deathmachine wrote:so i think this tread is now dead since i herd that Stelek got banned is this true Stelek? not that you can reply if you did.

According to his own Blog: http://yesthetruthhurts.blogspot.com/. Yes it is.

Iam also making a Dark eldar Skimmer List:

Dracon with agoniser
Retinue: 9 warriors + 2 Dark Lance
Raider with Desintegrator + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider with Desintegrator + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider with Desintegrator + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider with Desintegrator + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider (Dark Lance) + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider (Dark Lance) + Nightshield + horrorfex

10 warriors with Dark Lance
Raider (Dark Lance) + Nightshield + horrorfex

Ravager + 3 desintegrators + Nightshield + horrorfex
Ravager + 3 desintegrators + Nightshield + horrorfex
Ravager + 3 desintegrators + Nightshield + horrorfex

DE are much better in the 5th edition because now you now if you are going to start first or second. With this army I can deploy 70 warriors with splinter rifles (like bolter) and 8 Dark Lances. I will outflank the enemy with 10 skimmers equipped with 3 dark lances (for vehicle sniping) and 12 desintegrators (Plasma cannon). I also like the horrorfex because you can shoot with 10 blast templates that can cause pinning with -1 LD for every model hit after the first!

To those relying on the use of heavy holters or melta guns or lascannons.

I think the point against those weapons was this:

36" weapons (HB's missile pods, bright lances, many other weapons) The night shield firstly is really good against these. Don't say you can move into range because he can move just as far out of it, probably further. Second against HB's specifically, perhaps even S6 weapons, I think the point was they are not good because vehicles are tougher. You need a 5 and then a 6 from a heavy bolter to kill a raider. You need a 6 to have a decent chance of killing. Couple that with the diminished range and you have a serious problem.

Regarding multi-meltas and other short range AT weapons: See above, range diminished and he will never let you get into range. Sure you can Drop pod stern guard etc but they will die very quick to the haemonculi. He is willing to trade one or two raiders for those juicy expensive units. Even then you have to be within 6" to hurt him.

Regarding lascannons and missile launchers, again two points. First being apparantely noone lines them up in sufficient numbers anymore to play a 5th edition hard core tournament list. They are not good enough. Again we are talking about lists designed to do well in 5th in a tournament setting generally. Thus IG are rather out of the picture. Also is Marine lascannon spam. The second point is of course the sheer number of skimmers he has. I can't remember but wasn't it 9? three ravagers and 6 raiders? More? If you are taking enough I think your army is seriously weakened.

I play Eldar and im thinking of tournament competitive armies that could beat this. potentially Bike council? They don't care to much about the variable AP flamers. But they still hit on 6's... I see 3 prisms as being amazing, as would be EML spam. Falcons with EML + Pulse. Of course those skimmers are 200+ pts to his considerably less and to his huge amount of return fire.

Im not an experienced tournament player, nor are the tournament's i play in competitive. But simply applying the above logic, does someone without an axe to grind want to come up with something to beat:

1. His DE
2. Other good tourney lists?

Land raider spam? (heh probably not, Dark lances)

Hulksmash wrote:
Just some thoughts, I do like the list. It's just not unbeatable though I think the flaws you pointed out are the wrong ones and are more than made up by properly using the list.

Which?

The specific points about how one the top-table builds would attack the DE list? If so, please explain.



Winning an objective with the army looks really hard. Not so bad if you get the second turn and can tank shock onto the objective, although I would imagine anyone there would be some serious issues with death or glory vs AV10 and the random game length makes this a risky basis for winning. However, if you get first turn, you have sit on an objective with an AV10 vehicle and 5 guardsmen crew. I just cannot see that surviving a turn unless you have near-tabled your opponent and this list doesn't have the firepower to table anyone except deathwing.

Oh and in the US it's either 1750 for the GT's and most Indies or it's 2k. Depends on where your at and which one your attending. I haven't made a 1500 point army in like 8 years or so

I've heard your colonial events have unusual point limits. However the GT (as opposed to the Las Vegas GT or the German GT) is 1500 points

Stelek wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:I'm also curious about your thoughts on Necrons. I assume the game plan would be to ignore monoliths and go for the phase out, while the necron will probably gun for your ravagers first. With no real melee elements, which seem to be the best way for killing masses of necrons, I wonder how you see that fight evolving.

Pound the ranged elements dead, then ignore the Necrons until I win because I can shoot them to pieces and they can't shoot back?

Most necron lists are monolith heavy, or destoyer heavy. Monoliths can DS in, and cause some chaos with gauss flux, even teleport warriors in. Monoliths arent affected by lances so they will be a bitch to get rid of. Destroyers can move in and out of sight, and have decent stregnth and range. Ill admit destroyers wont be much of a problem though. Scarabs with disruption fields can turbo boost for a 2+ cover, then do some damage to anything next turn, and their only 160 pts for 10.

Saldiv I never said I use whirlwinds. I said they do the nasty nasty versus DE. I didn't mean to mislead you mate.

G

This List as well as the one I have posted eariler are very deadly to most armies. It is extremely competitive but it can be beaten for sure, any army can. However, I have had more success with it then not.

Regarding Shogun's list. I dont know if I like this list. Once your raider squads are grounded they arent quite as effective anymore. Also, one of the benifits to the raider lance is that its actually a 48" possible shot with the move factored in. Still, im sure you do well with it.

Regarding HB spam. This tactic is less effective then you would think. The amount of HB's needed makes the list lose to mech spam quite easily.

Example HB's at a ravager with BS 4

.33 to hit
.16 to glance.

this leaves you with roughly a 5% chance to do anything to a ravager with 1 single HB shot.

Now to make that even remotely attainable you need devy squads or there equiv. On top of that you are 30" to my 36" Plasma.

Imo, HB spam is not the answer.