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Turbo10k wrote:
In my hot gas giant example, energy would have been no problem. Light penetrates gases much further than in water, and provides a poorer heat sink for sunlight, so the heat would have travelled further.

With gas giants the greatest enemy isn't heat from solar radiation, but heat created by increases in pressure due to the sheer amount of gas involved. You essentially need to find a spot deep enough to retain heat energy and shield against harmful radiation, but shallow enough to allow useful radiation in without being too hot/high pressure.

Turbo10k wrote:
Yes, you are right again, but I must protest. Amino acids (notice pluriel) is a group of molecules. To qualify for being an amino acid, just pack together carbon atoms, oxygen, hydrogen and at least a single nitrogen atom, and voila! an amino acid.

But those elements will only bond in a limited number of ways. In this case what we're concerned with is the strength of the molecule as a whole, and so we can focus on the weakest bonds in a standard amino acid: ionic ones. Obviously ionic bonds are a considered to be strong, but if one were to do the math the feasibility of their formation in the tumultuous atmosphere of should be clear. Now, I don't know if that's implausible or not (that's too much math for me to do without getting paid ), but I do think that the molecular wait of any conceivable acid would quickly doom it to a hot forceful death at the heart of a gas giant.

Turbo10k wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I know that they have to have at least a reactive COO group to react with other molecules, but it doesn't have to be an absolute invariable defenition of an amino acid. Heck, amino acids exist so far only of Terra. Why can't they be differemt, or even based on other atoms ( say chlorine (<--- ) instead of the nitrogen?!

Because they wouldn't be amino acids. They could play the role of an amino acid in some hypothetical life form, but they would still be different molecules.

Turbo10k wrote:
Even further! At those distances, you'll need a hefty shield from solar radiation. Maybe 3-4 AU to compensate, and our hypothetical microaliens living a few layers deep...The giant's larger surface area would capture enough sunlight to compensate.

Keep in mind Jupiter is only 4.9-5.5 AU out, and its roughly -150 C at the cloud tops. By the time it gets to about 20 C the atmospheric pressure is 10 times that of Earth.

Solar radiation would be relatively easy to control for by evolutionary process, or atmospheric makeup. The planet's intrinsic magnetic field will take care of the rest.

The higher pressure is not a great problem, after all, most of the life in the ocean happens at a depth where the pressure is between 2 and 10 atm (10-90m depth).

The increased pressure will also mean that you can "float" more easily. Small particulate matter may find that the density of the gases at liveable levels is enough (combined with the local "wind" conditions etc) to enable it to remain suspended within that level (much in the same way that microorganisms in the ocean float around, or even some airbourne creatures).

SilverMK2 wrote:The higher pressure is not a great problem, after all, most of the life in the ocean happens at a depth where the pressure is between 2 and 10 atm (10-90m depth).

The increased pressure will also mean that you can "float" more easily. Small particulate matter may find that the density of the gases at liveable levels is enough (combined with the local "wind" conditions etc) to enable it to remain suspended within that level (much in the same way that microorganisms in the ocean float around, or even some airbourne creatures).

I was thinking about this along the same lines. 10x the gravity, does not really sound like 'all that much', regardless of how excruciatingly painful it would probably be for us.

This link explains a bit. Not sure that it's all that accurate, but it is brief. If this is right, you would merely be going down to an average of 300 feet to achieve that pressure. Not that far down at all, thermal vents are usually quite deep aren't they? I am sure that some naturally rise quite far, due to the growth of the vents though. On average, I would expect most vents to be several miles down, if not further. The pressure at those depths, would literally tear you into pieces...

This has been a cool thread though. This model of a floating life is pretty awesome.

This is a very interesting thread. Glad I wandered down her to check things out.

While I'm no science major, what about the possibility(maybe near certainty) of unknown(at least to us) elements out there that are capable of performing the same role for another form of life, as ours do for us.

Let's face it the universe is a very large place, can we really believe that the elements found on earth, or even in our own solar system are all that are out there?

Wrexasaur wrote:I was thinking about this along the same lines. 10x the gravity, does not really sound like 'all that much', regardless of how excruciatingly painful it would probably be for us.

I think you might mean pressure, rather than gravity. And I have done quite a bit of diving, though I have only gone down to about 30-40m it does get hard to breathe, though I was not using any specialist equipment. You can go quite deep while remaining relatively unprotected, and deeper still if you have the right gear (though this is getting more to the man-sub hard suits, which may as well be submarines).

This link explains a bit. Not sure that it's all that accurate, but it is brief. If this is right, you would merely be going down to an average of 300 feet to achieve that pressure. Not that far down at all, thermal vents are usually quite deep aren't they? I am sure that some naturally rise quite far, due to the growth of the vents though. On average, I would expect most vents to be several miles down, if not further. The pressure at those depths, would literally tear you into pieces...

This has been a cool thread though. This model of a floating life is pretty awesome.

The pressure itself I don't think is too much of a problem, as demonstrated by whales etc which can dive very deep, and also flop about on the surface too. Whales have obviously evolved to be able to cope with it, which is why they can do it. Other deep sea life has also obviously evolved to be able to cope with the pressure (I believe that it can actually explode if brought to the surface too quickly and in a non-pressurised container, much the same way an plane will decompress if it gets a big enough hole in it when it is flying, only with much more of a pressure difference).

I've not read all that much on the subject, I don't even know how much research has been done on it, but there has been talk of adapting humans to the pressures experienced at great depths slowly using liquid breathing systems. Using such things it could be possible to skin dive much deeper than currently possible.


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Lord Alaric wrote:This is a very interesting thread. Glad I wandered down her to check things out.

While I'm no science major, what about the possibility(maybe near certainty) of unknown(at least to us) elements out there that are capable of performing the same role for another form of life, as ours do for us.

Let's face it the universe is a very large place, can we really believe that the elements found on earth, or even in our own solar system are all that are out there?

The problem with "unknown" elements is that they are unknown. As it is, you can extrapolate the periodic table to predict the existance of other elements (as was done back in the day when we had not found most of the elements we know today - the missing ones were predicted using the properties expressed by the ones that had been found).

However, a lot of the elements that remain undiscovered can, as far as we know, only be produced artificially, or can only exist for a fraction of a second before decaying, etc. On the other hand, "super lead" should be far more stable than lead, but as far as I know it has not been discovered or created yet.

There may well be elements outside the current periodic table but we cannot know until we find evidence for their existance.

SilverMK2 wrote:The higher pressure is not a great problem, after all, most of the life in the ocean happens at a depth where the pressure is between 2 and 10 atm (10-90m depth).

The increased pressure will also mean that you can "float" more easily. Small particulate matter may find that the density of the gases at liveable levels is enough (combined with the local "wind" conditions etc) to enable it to remain suspended within that level (much in the same way that microorganisms in the ocean float around, or even some airbourne creatures).

Yep. And at those depths, the temperature is subzero. Temperatures would rise even slower in an extremely undense medium like gas. I know that no space probe has measured the temperature at the depths of Jupiter, but how long did Galileo have to drop for the temperature to rise above 0°C? 50km. For it to reach 23atms and 153°C? 150 kms (and it broke up). So, if bacteria on earth can be snug next to a 400°C smoking underwater volcano at 10 atms, why can't extraterrestrial bacteria who can support higher radiation, unfiltered UVs and ginormous storms not be unable to stand those conditions, dogma?

dogma wrote:
With gas giants the greatest enemy isn't heat from solar radiation, but heat created by increases in pressure due to the sheer amount of gas involved. You essentially need to find a spot deep enough to retain heat energy and shield against harmful radiation, but shallow enough to allow useful radiation in without being too hot/high pressure.

The optimal depth where life will develop?

dogma wrote:
Obviously ionic bonds are a considered to be strong, but if one were to do the math the feasibility of their formation in the tumultuous atmosphere of should be clear. Now, I don't know if that's implausible or not (that's too much math for me to do without getting paid ), but I do think that the molecular wait of any conceivable acid would quickly doom it to a hot forceful death at the heart of a gas giant.

I considered other molecules used as a replacement for the less unstable terrestrial ones. Acidic COO groups and amino acid structures have to be reactive enough to be used by living organisms, yet stable enough not to decompose under stress. In hot giant conditions, they would be too unstable and never be formed. Other, less reactive molecules (yes, not amino acids, but a group which can also be used as "building blocks of life") would be stable enough for life in such conditions.

Keep in mind Jupiter is only 4.9-5.5 AU out, and its roughly -150 C at the cloud tops. By the time it gets to about 20 C the atmospheric pressure is 10 times that of Earth.

Solar radiation would be relatively easy to control for by evolutionary process, or atmospheric makeup. The planet's intrinsic magnetic field will take care of the rest.

Yep . But you're wrong for the solar radiation. It is difficult to deal with. Even after 3 billion years of evolution, UV filtered by 100km of atmosphere and a whole layer of ozone, can still cause cancers, skin diseases and random mutation, even underwater...This will be a even bigger concern for hot gas giant micro-organisms as, well, gas ain't protecting for much at acceptable pressures and temperatures. Our little aliens would have to have a much more robust chemistry (no RNA or DNA equivalents, they are much too complex), less reactive equivalents to our molecules and therefore slower metabolisms and growth rates (which is already limited by resources being hard to capture...).

It gonna be tough.

Keep posting!

well, to be honest like i said before as long as the planet has a solid surface, we can settle on it and so can aliens, which means WE ARE NOT ALONE!

Anyone serious back on this thread? It ain't dead yet!

I KNOW! We can't just let it die(especially because i created it )

seriously though...here's some Alien-Evidence to discuss people...ENJOY!!

bacterias found on a meteroite...get it?BACTERIAS...ON...A...METEROITE!!!


i mean, just think about it...we found bacterias on a boulder from somewhere outside of this planet...

this is one of the most interesting charts i've ever seen..it shows a habitable zone in our galaxy, ie, where the right conditions for life exist..


alright, here's one of the classic sightings...80% of them are hoaxes...another 10-12% are government tests/or similar...but there's still 8% left...

this UFO was sighted in baghdad...an US vehicle???


ABDUCTIONS:

people who got abducted by aliens always report to have seen a bright light, then a plate shaped, hovering vehicle, and the weirdest thing, the TIME passed by hours in a minute..say they saw the light at 10:30 at night and they turned around, saw the ufo landing and the Greys walking out, the next thing is always sitting in their car(for some reason, people in cars are more likely to get a visit of the 3rd kind..)and it felt like only 5 minutes hgad passed by, but their watch said 3:47....

here are some reports, used without permission, no challenge to the copyright/s intended.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Reported By: Susan R. - Gold Coast, Australia - April 17, 2005
Subject: Abduction By Aliens - Location: Gold Coast, Australia - Zip Code: 4213 - Time: 1:00 PM - Witnesses: 1 - Object's Shape: "Light" - Number of Objects: 1 - Object emitted beams of light - Object landed - Object hovered
Event Description:
I have always lived and visited the area behind the Gold Coast area. Tallai to be exact.

One night lots of years ago, I used to visit my friend in Tallai. I was only a teenager. We used to have late nights.

This night driving down a country road, I noticed a very bright light behind me, I was feeling a bit under the weather, drinking so forth, and tried to dismiss it. But it became more and more apparent that this was not a normal thing.

The light was very intense behind my car then all of a sudden it was right upon me. Scared, as I was only a teenager, I didn't know what to do and all I thought was this was something really creepy was about to happen. But just like it appeared it was gone again.

I suppose I wanted to put it out of my mind as most people discredit this sort of phenomenon. But then I ended up buying a property on this particular road.

One night, I remember lying in my bed besides my husband and I couldn't move, time was irrelevant and my whole bedroom was alit with this fantastic glow. I kept remembering trying to wake my husband with no avail.

I don't remember after that, except waking to think what had taken place must have happened in a matter of seconds as time had stood still. But once again years after I had children in this house, I distinctly remember (it seemed like a dream) introducing my children to these people who were exactly as everyone describes them to be as large big eyes quiet, but able to get across what they want to convey.

My children were scared but I remember saying don't be scared of these guys (knowing in my mind it was the big greys you had to be scared of). They're are different types, some nice and some very, very scary.

...a classical visit...

and then there is this abduction...
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Reported By: Sean - Frankston, Victoria, Australia - Date: September 25, 2003
Subject: Abduction by Aliens - Location: Frankston, Victoria, Australia - Date: May 20 to 30, 1995 - Time: 2:30 PM - Zip Code: 3199 - Witnesses: 1-3 - Object's Shape: Cigar - Number of Objects: 1 - Object had lights - Object left a vapor trail - Object hovered - Object made sound - Additional Information: Just the start of many strange experiences
Event Description:
My first experience was way back in 1995. I recall it vividly due to the fact it was the day my High School band at the time were releasing our first demo recording.

I'd been on the phone to our drummer at about 2:30 PM, I told him I'd be over in about half an hour. I walked from my bedroom to the kitchen and a bright flash emanated through the window, like a lightning strike would look like at night. I then looked at my watch, it was 3:43 PM, I'd lost almost 75 minutes.

Ever since then I've had 2 unexplained scars on my lower abdomen, both exactly the same distance apart from my navel. I also have an unexplained perfect equilateral triangle patch of raw skin that changes occasionally from my left to right arms (note Dan and Simon from the Aust. UFO report page).

One year later I was walking along Frankston-Flinder Road near the BP and McDonalds and noticed a small light, not unlike a street light in the sky about 40 degrees from the horizon, as soon as I spotted it, it took off in a northerly direction at about 300 kmh.

...note the time difference...75 minutes in one minute...

that's it for now stay tuned and keep up your ideas and opinions!!!

r3n3g8b0y







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..strange huh?

r3n3g8b0y wrote:
bacterias found on a meteroite...get it?BACTERIAS...ON...A...METEROITE!!!

Never has been proven that those are in fact bacteria.

Also meteorites have been found to be contaminated by earth microorganisms when they sit in storage on earth.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:
alright, here's one of the classic sightings...80% of them are hoaxes...another 10-12% are government tests/or similar...but there's still 8% left...

this UFO was sighted in baghdad...an US vehicle???

Looks like a trash can lid was thrown up in the air.

GG

Yeah, looks like it's in the foreground, which would make it about the right size.

I didnt say its a hoax orr not but i don't know what you peoples' trashcan lids look like...

Mine looks like that.

I do believe in life on another planet. If anyone is interested I read a great book called Extraterrestrials:A field Guide for Earthlings. It looks at what life might look like according to natural selection and how they would live on the extreme. Check it out. Does anyone beleive in life in this solar system?

Ketara wrote:Mine looks like that.

ALRIGHT, but that wasn't my whole point...what do you guys think about the stories about the abduction???

Abduction is basically either someone seeking attention or attention seeking someone...yep, basically its all composed of hoaxes that play on hype..the only 'true' ones left are those who we cannot determine for sure as NOT being hoaxes!

Anyway, life in our solar system is impossible as our little rock has taken up the only available sweet spot, really.

No life isn't a "Goldilocks" idea where things have to be just right. Look at underwater vents. Its scalding hot,spurts out toxins, is in a sunless abyss at the bottom of the ocean and is a hell spot. But it's filled with life from simple bacterium to crabs, sea cucumbers and jellyfish. Life could evolve on Eurpa and look like jelly fish. Even Jupiter is a habitable spot. Floating parachute-like plants can waft in the room temperature,food for giant floating sacks. The possiblities are endless.

Munch Munch! wrote:No life isn't a "Goldilocks" idea where things have to be just right. Look at underwater vents. Its scalding hot,spurts out toxins, is in a sunless abyss at the bottom of the ocean and is a hell spot. But it's filled with life from simple bacterium to crabs, sea cucumbers and jellyfish.

For us surface-dwelling humans, sure it is....but for 'em bacteria who evolved into that form over there, its sure heaven.

Turbo10k wrote:
The optimal depth where life will develop?

Perhaps. Assuming the rate of circulation isn't too high.

Turbo10k wrote:
Yep . But you're wrong for the solar radiation. It is difficult to deal with. Even after 3 billion years of evolution, UV filtered by 100km of atmosphere and a whole layer of ozone, can still cause cancers, skin diseases and random mutation, even underwater...This will be a even bigger concern for hot gas giant micro-organisms as, well, gas ain't protecting for much at acceptable pressures and temperatures. Our little aliens would have to have a much more robust chemistry (no RNA or DNA equivalents, they are much too complex), less reactive equivalents to our molecules and therefore slower metabolisms and growth rates (which is already limited by resources being hard to capture...).

Why? The only thing protecting us from solar radiation is gas. If anything the increase in distance from the outer atmosphere should serve to reduce the requirements for robustness of chemistry.


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Turbo10k wrote:
Anyway, life in our solar system is impossible as our little rock has taken up the only available sweet spot, really.

Mars isn't a terrible candidate. Though there certainly isn't anything living in a widespread sense.

They actually found water (frozen, so it's ice ) on Mars...and like i said, a few pages earlier, water is the essence of life and so there might have been life once...

Ice is too cold to be used as solvent medium...nothing dissolves in a solid! There is a surprising amount on water in the universe, its simply the combination of overabundant hydrogen and commonly found oxygen...its just that in this universe, temperatures are all extremes! Only solid and gas have been found so far.

By the way, dogma, what do you mean by rate of circulation? And, in a gas giant, what I was meaning is that there is going to be a LOT more UV and other radiation as its larger surface area means it absorbs quite a lot.

yeah, but i mean the water could have frozen recently, so there might ahve been seas a long time ago...

There has been seas, for certain, we've seen traces everywhere, just not hard solid (well, liquid) proof of water on Mars. Its just that it took perfect conditions on Earth 2 billion years to lead to life, Mars had sub-par conditions for not as long. Chances are pretty slim....

Earth was far different to what it is now when life formed. It was far from "perfect".

As has been stated over and over in this thread, life does not need more than a slim chance for it to exist. As exampled with such things as deep sea vents, bacteria frozen and thawed from arctic ice, etc.

The conditions on Mars are not massively harsh. It has been suggested that life could abound under the surface layer of rocks and dirt, relatively protected from extremes of heat.

But even so, Mars does have conditions which would be conductive to flowing water:

"The daytime SURFACE temperature is about 80 F during rare summer days, to -200 F at the poles in winter. The AIR temperature, however, rarely gets much above 32 F.

The temperatures on the two Viking landers, measured at 1.5 meters above the surface, range from + 1° F, ( -17.2° C) to -178° F (-107° C). However, the temperature of the surface at the winter polar caps drop to -225° F, (-143° C) while the warmest soil occasionally reaches +81° F (27° C) as estimated from Viking Orbiter Infrared Thermal Mapper.

In 2004, the Spirit rover recorded the warmest temperature around +5 C and the coldest is -15 Celsius in the Guisev Crater."

You also have to remember that the atmospheric pressure difference between Earth and Mars leads to a difference in the boiling and freezing point of substances.

Turbo10k wrote:
By the way, dogma, what do you mean by rate of circulation?

Transfer of gas from one 'layer' of the atmosphere to another.

Turbo10k wrote:
And, in a gas giant, what I was meaning is that there is going to be a LOT more UV and other radiation as its larger surface area means it absorbs quite a lot.

Does the level of exposure increase exponentially? I'm not all that familiar with how radiation behaves in a gaseous medium.

Well there are four times the amount of stars then grains of sand on our earth with about 13 planets for each of thosee stars with about 3 moons for each of those planets not counting all other bodies of land or ice or whatever in space. and if we can look and see stuff from earth that has developed from far away in space and if we can see far enough to know all these things exist you would think we could see structures of advanced beings elsewhere. Plus with the countless aeons that have passed an alien species could have developed and thrived for millions of years before being completely smashed by some cataclysim which is possible since we have only been around for about 20,000 years and every little thing threatens our society and our universe is 6 billion years old meaning 20,000 years is like a few milliseconds of an hour. It is also possible that we "could" be the first things to evolve and are currently the dominate creature in our universe. But... I don't know what to think. my logic and sense in this current state tell me that there is none but my thoughts philosophys and math tells me it could be highly possible or highly impossible. The only thing i know for sure is that i know nothing.

nethaniellovesthorpe wrote:Well there are four times the amount of stars then grains of sand on our earth with about 13 planets for each of thosee stars with about 3 moons for each of those planets not counting all other bodies of land or ice or whatever in space. and if we can look and see stuff from earth that has developed from far away in space and if we can see far enough to know all these things exist you would think we could see structures of advanced beings elsewhere. Plus with the countless aeons that have passed an alien species could have developed and thrived for millions of years before being completely smashed by some cataclysim which is possible since we have only been around for about 20,000 years and every little thing threatens our society and our universe is 6 billion years old meaning 20,000 years is like a few milliseconds of an hour. It is also possible that we "could" be the first things to evolve and are currently the dominate creature in our universe. But... I don't know what to think. my logic and sense in this current state tell me that there is none but my thoughts philosophys and math tells me it could be highly possible or highly impossible. The only thing i know for sure is that i know nothing.

See right here....this is exactly how you win threads..

Well done my friend...........well done.

GG

what generalgrog said, and now that we ALL AGREE that live MUST EXIST somewhere out there...let's follow some logical steps...so...what would you do if you were part of an intelligent race(say humans allthough they're far from being intelligent)and you believe in life, somehwere out there...that's right you'd search for it and guess what? Yep we already started to do so http://www.alienresearchgroup.com/about_arg.php

now, people might say thats all just pipedreams, but like many people in this thread, people out there in this world and even scientists have said before...WHY DOES LIFE EXIST ON THIS PLANET? Was it just a coincidence? Are we a miracle, the only planet in hundreds of millions of trillions of other planets like ours out there? Or are we part of an intergalactic trade federation and only the worlds' ledaing governments know about that? I mean, not everything the government says is true and BY FAR, not everything they say is actually EVERYTHING if you know what i mean...

There are so many mysteries, conspiracies and facts out there ON EARTH yet to be explored...so if we've only discovered 75% of our own planet in about 4 million years...how can we possibly say, we've discovered what's ou there...

r3n3g8b0y Chaos Protects

nethaniellovesthorpe wrote:Well there are four times the amount of stars then grains of sand on our earth with about 13 planets for each of thosee stars with about 3 moons for each of those planets not counting all other bodies of land or ice or whatever in space. and if we can look and see stuff from earth that has developed from far away in space and if we can see far enough to know all these things exist you would think we could see structures of advanced beings elsewhere. Plus with the countless aeons that have passed an alien species could have developed and thrived for millions of years before being completely smashed by some cataclysim which is possible since we have only been around for about 20,000 years and every little thing threatens our society and our universe is 6 billion years old meaning 20,000 years is like a few milliseconds of an hour. It is also possible that we "could" be the first things to evolve and are currently the dominate creature in our universe. But... I don't know what to think. my logic and sense in this current state tell me that there is none but my thoughts philosophys and math tells me it could be highly possible or highly impossible. The only thing i know for sure is that i know nothing.

Certainly. It's also the 'there's just too much of it for life not be possible' argument that has been posted so many times on this thread and has won over the rest of us! .

Anyway, this thread is about life BEYOND earth, so we shall try and forget about its origins as that would bring up the tricky, sticky subject of religion...and have this thread SHUT DOWN...

By the way, I don't think UV radiation absorption rises exponentially with surface area, sunlight sure doesn't but it is also electromagnetic radiation... My point was just that life on earth developed under easier conditions, under water, with a good layer of ozone...our poor floating bacterium wouldn't have them!

r3n3g8b0y wrote:what generalgrog said, and now that we ALL AGREE that live MUST EXIST somewhere out there..

Rasies hand, and points out that I never agreed that life MUST EXIST. I only ever postulated that it MIGHT exist. "somehwhere out there"

The possibility that it MIGHT exist is exactly why science fiction is so much fun.

GG