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what if we find a race that is more machine then organism can we still call it living

youbedead wrote:what if we find a race that is more machine then organism can we still call it living

i don't think we could mate, because AI and metal is different to Brain and muscles, y'know...interesting idea though, a race that is more machine than...well, not machine...

Albatross wrote:There's a very good chance that other forms of life would be beyond our comprehension.

..they'd be women you're saying ?

r3n3g8b0y wrote:

youbedead wrote:what if we find a race that is more machine then organism can we still call it living

i don't think we could mate, because AI and metal is different to Brain and muscles, y'know...interesting idea though, a race that is more machine than...well, not machine...

It is possible that "machines" could be living beings. Silicone based life could concivably look more machine than animal, and may well augment itself with "living" machine parts if it advanced enough, in the same way we could augment ourselves with biological grafts, or machine parts.

As far as silicone based life goes:

Is it possible to construct a device which replicates the human brain, without actually being a human brain?

dogma wrote:As far as silicone based life goes:

Is it possible to construct a device which replicates the human brain, without actually being a human brain?

Long answer: We would need to know more about the human brain and be more narrowly define what it does and how it works etc before we could know.

Short answer: Yes, probably

And I was referring to silicone life that uses silicone rather than carbon as the main building block, rather than "machine life" which is, as we have now, robots, computers etc.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:If we're talking intelligent species, I would guess it would have dexterous hands or mandibles of some sort; something that allows them to manipulate their environment to such a degree where intelligence is helpful. It would have a fairly large brain compared to its body weight. It's probably more likely to be a carnivore or omnivore than a herbivore, assuming there's a difference on this planet. It's likely to be warm blooded. Probably deals with others of its species socially to a fair degree, but not "hive based". It would probably weigh at least 100lbs adult. Probably would reproduce "sexually", although they may not have set sexes.

This wouldn't need to look anything like a human, though, in fact I think it would pretty unlikely that it would look like a human. Scales, hair, feathers, skin? Number of limbs? Exoskeletal, endoskeletal? Primary senses? Method of communication? No idea.

hmm that's some good points
and of course they would adapt to the environment they're living in...not that we do that anymoar lol.

Also, it just came to my mind...what kinda music would they be listening to???lllalright let's stay focused, man

Looking human and a humanoid shape is two different things. They may not look human but would they be humanoid?

Again, this assumes life would develop in other places as it developed here. Which, I agree, seems the most logical but only based on similar environmental factors, but I don't think we (humanity) should discount the possibly of radically different development of life. An Example: What about jellyfish? They show no signs of centralized brain (among their lack of other typical parts) yet have been observed to display typical animal like behavior.

And we did adapt to our environment by developing the intellect to create smaller environments which were better suited to us (i.e. houses).

As I am an aspiring Science-Fiction/Fantasy Writer, I love discussing this!


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dogma wrote:As far as silicone based life goes:

Is it possible to construct a device which replicates the human brain, without actually being a human brain?

Not yet, as far as I know there are two general lines of development on this. The first is the Big Blue/IBM/PC way of simply building more and more complex computers and the recreation of a human nerve and replicating that over and over until the complexity begins to mimic animal-like behavior (which has already been done on limited levels, I don't know if this has a name). I imagine eventually the two will come together (whether cooperatively or because of necessity) ,then we will be all ruled by machines until the Butlerian Jihad which also causes us to add a new Commandment, "Thou shall not make a machine in the likeness of the human mind." (-Dune)

SilverMK2 wrote:...I was referring to silicone life that uses silicone rather than carbon as the main building block, rather than "machine life" which is, as we have now, robots, computers etc.

Why not? Although it is SO radically different than what we know it is hard to imagine.

gorgon wrote:Personally, I dunno how life existing elsewhere in the universe is even relevant to us, given that we'll likely never meet or communicate with it.

If you ask me, whatever space program money we spend should be 100% devoted to asteroid detection and defense. I mean, we know the mess asteroids and such have created in the past. Why not focus on the survival of our species rather than stuff like microbes or plate tectonics on Mars? Who cares if there's water on the Moon? We're not prepared to move a real population there right now, so it's not info we need right now.

NASA and co. might spend money more stupidly than any other government agency...and yes, that is saying something.

I agree gorgon we should spend money on improving out technology.I don't care about life on mars or do the greys exist(they scare me I can't look at them ).

IvanTih wrote:

gorgon wrote:Personally, I dunno how life existing elsewhere in the universe is even relevant to us, given that we'll likely never meet or communicate with it.

If you ask me, whatever space program money we spend should be 100% devoted to asteroid detection and defense. I mean, we know the mess asteroids and such have created in the past. Why not focus on the survival of our species rather than stuff like microbes or plate tectonics on Mars? Who cares if there's water on the Moon? We're not prepared to move a real population there right now, so it's not info we need right now.

NASA and co. might spend money more stupidly than any other government agency...and yes, that is saying something.

I agree gorgon we should spend money on improving out technology.I don't care about life on mars or do the greys exist(they scare me I can't look at them ).

While I agree with most of these statements I feel it also goes against the "spirit" of this thread. We're simply speculating and discussing different life forms and how it may have evolved. Don't be party poopers (no matter how right you may be) I agree, Grays would be scary, I hope I don't get abducted!


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youbedead wrote:what if we find a race that is more machine then organism can we still call it living

Is someone with a pace-maker still living?

What if a race of beings didn't have our socio-religious hang-ups regarding hard tech (which, by-the-way pace makers and such are early cyborgs)? They became so adept at machines doing and/or replacing so many functions they simply never moved into the realm of genetics. The could slowly replace just about everything on themselves to extend their lives until the only logical conclusion would be to simply implant their nervous systems into a machine chassis. Like the Daleks, Mechanoids or whatever.

reds8n wrote:

Albatross wrote:There's a very good chance that other forms of life would be beyond our comprehension.

..they'd be women you're saying ?

I can't help but re-recommend the book; Voyage of the Space Beagle by A.E. Von Vogt. It is a bit dated (but still in print) but it certainly has its share of weird, non-typical and barely perceivable aliens. If you need more incentive; this is the book Alien (Yes, the Sigourney Weaver/Ridley Scott film) is based from (part of it, anyway).

Machinery and mechanics are human concepts - we have no reason to believe alien life-forms would be aware of these concepts.

Albatross wrote:Machinery and mechanics are human concepts - we have no reason to believe alien life-forms would be aware of these concepts.

I would argue; only as we know them. Machines and mechanics are just evolutions of tools, after all.

Tools are a human concept - not to say that other species can't use them, just that the understanding of them as 'tools' comes from us, culturally speaking.

Dogs don't build computers, a cow can't drive a car or hammer a nail into a piece of wood - and those creatures can be found on earth. Imagine how different creatures would be from other planets, other galaxies even.

There are only so many ways you can build a club, a hammer, a saw, a rocket engine, etc, etc.

"Tools", seperate from any cultural underpinnings; so items which are used to perform a function or task which would otherwise be difficult or impossible for the user without the item are universal.

A bird dropping a snail onto a rock is using a tool, even if it has no deeper understanding as to what it is doing other than a learnt understanding that dropping a snail onto a rock = yummy innards. A chimp using a stick to pick out insects from logs etc is using a tool, no matter how unsophisticated and no matter its understanding of what it is actually doing.

Because we use a word to describe something, that does not mean that it somehow cannot be understood by anyone or anything else. Some things are universal, such as energy, mass, the elements, etc. So are some concepts, ideas, and relationships. E=MC^2 is a mathematical tool used to describe the energy contained within a given mass, however, the concept and relationship it describes can be appreciated anything with sufficiently advanced mathematics and insight into the universe.

Hell, compared to some aliens, I am sure that E=MC^2 is the mathematical equivilent of bashing a snail on a rock...

Some things are universal,....So are some concepts, ideas, and relationships.

Prove it. They are only universal between carbon-based life-forms on earth, to the best of our knowledge. And even THAT is debateable.

Hell, compared to some aliens, I am sure that E=MC^2 is the mathematical equivilent of bashing a snail on a rock...

Prove it. There is absolutely no foundation to this statement.

There are only so many ways you can build a club, a hammer, a saw, a rocket engine, etc, etc.

We have absolutely no evidence that any alien life (should it be proven to exist) would understand or even NEED these concepts.

Albatross wrote:

Some things are universal,....So are some concepts, ideas, and relationships.

Prove it. They are only universal between carbon-based life-forms on earth, to the best of our knowledge. And even THAT is debateable.

Fair point but debatable? A rock is a type simple hammer to the bird that uses it whether it labels or entirely understands it as such or not. We, of higher understanding, observe this.

Albatross wrote:

Hell, compared to some aliens, I am sure that E=MC^2 is the mathematical equivilent of bashing a snail on a rock...

Prove it. There is absolutely no foundation to this statement.

I think he was simply speculating as to our potentially insignificant level of scientific development compared to a potentially super-advanced alien race. Our mathematics would be, quaint.

Albatross wrote:

There are only so many ways you can build a club, a hammer, a saw, a rocket engine, etc, etc.

We have absolutely no evidence that any alien life (should it be proven to exist) would understand or even NEED these concepts.

Very true. I think I said a variation of this in an earlier post but we don't know what a universal norm is or if we are it or if their is a 'norm' at all. Do you have any ideas of what other types of life may exist? Extra-dimensional? Intra-dimensional? Microscopic? Pure energy? Etc?

To quote myself:

But they could be made out of bananas, and ride around in flying shoes, and be smaller than a flea, and be able to kill you with beams of sadness. That's not really science fiction though, that's just normal fiction. Speculating the KrAzY abilities they could have and handwaving away how they would get them doesn't sound like very much fun to me, just like a lot of saying "you don't know anything about aliens! It could happen!"

Mathmatically speaking, there has to be life on other planets. I dont think "they" come here though. Ive not time for all these conspiracy theorists.

And obvious one to me is, if aliens have the amazing technology to leap across space in crafts, covering millions of miles into the bargain, and they dont want to be seen (because they havent announced their presence) then surely they would have the technoloy to remain hidden right?

ie. They arent going to create a rift in space with some unfathomable technology and then switch off the warp drive, turn off the cloaking device and fly very very slowly over Oxford in a ship covered in blinking illuminous lights.

Its amusing that whenever ive had this topic come up in the pub its always the duty pisshead who swears he has seen one

"I saw one! i...id.... id h..had.. twelve...twelve pints.. and then... there it was!"

GoFenris wrote:Looking human and a humanoid shape is two different things. They may not look human but would they be humanoid?

Well, they certainly could be. Walking upright seems to have done well for us, certainly, as does having four limbs and sensory organs near an elevated brain.

Again, this assumes life would develop in other places as it developed here. Which, I agree, seems the most logical but only based on similar environmental factors, but I don't think we (humanity) should discount the possibly of radically different development of life. An Example: What about jellyfish? They show no signs of centralized brain (among their lack of other typical parts) yet have been observed to display typical animal like behavior.

True, I but as far as we can tell it's not possible for a jellyfish to become particularly intelligent. I think in terms of possible unintelligent aliens you would have a huge spectrum.

And we did adapt to our environment by developing the intellect to create smaller environments which were better suited to us (i.e. houses).

That's a big one. It comes down to the use of tools again; to manipulate your environment to better suit you.

SilverMK2 wrote:...I was referring to silicone life that uses silicone rather than carbon as the main building block, rather than "machine life" which is, as we have now, robots, computers etc.

I'm inclined to think pure silicone based life isn't around. Or at least not very developed. I mean, there's 1000 times as much silicon as there is carbon on Earth, but we still ended up carbon. There are a lot more naturally occuring compounds of carbon too.

I think a more likely possibility would be some sort of hybrid; largely silicone based, but then using carbon based amino acids, and things. Sort of work around the weaknesses that way.

Have you guys never watched that PBS series X-Files? Those two detectives clearly show that there's ET's out there.

Fair point but debatable? A rock is a type simple hammer to the bird that uses it whether it labels or entirely understands it as such or not. We, of higher understanding, observe this.

A spider has no concept of bashing a snail on a rock - a dolphin has no concept of catching it's prey in a web, hence the concepts are not universal, even on earth. In addition, conceptual and abstract thought is a result of our evolution - we have no reason to think alien life-forms would have evolved in the same way.

Well, they certainly could be. Walking upright seems to have done well for us, certainly, as does having four limbs and sensory organs near an elevated brain.

Flying has worked out fairly well for birds, swimming has worked out fairly well for fish, walking on 6 legs has worked out exceptionally well for insects - there are more of them per square mile than there are humans on earth. But you're right, they COULD walk on 2 legs, though it would largely depend on their home environment.

True, I but as far as we can tell it's not possible for a jellyfish to become particularly intelligent.

On earth.

I'm inclined to think pure silicone based life isn't around. Or at least not very developed. I mean, there's 1000 times as much silicon as there is carbon on Earth, but we still ended up carbon

There are a lot of other contributing factors to life on earth being carbon-based, chance being one of them.

"you don't know anything about aliens! It could happen!"

There's a lot of truth in this statement.

I think he was simply speculating as to our potentially insignificant level of scientific development compared to a potentially super-advanced alien race. Our mathematics would be, quaint.

That goes without saying, but such lines of thinking are indicative of having watched too many science-fiction films. The ultimate truth is that EVERYTHING is speculation, as far as this topic is concerned.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

GoFenris wrote:Again, this assumes life would develop in other places as it developed here. Which, I agree, seems the most logical but only based on similar environmental factors, but I don't think we (humanity) should discount the possibly of radically different development of life. An Example: What about jellyfish? They show no signs of centralized brain (among their lack of other typical parts) yet have been observed to display typical animal like behavior.

True, I but as far as we can tell it's not possible for a jellyfish to become particularly intelligent. I think in terms of possible unintelligent aliens you would have a huge spectrum.

What if vertebrates never developed into predators and jellyfish competed with each other so fiercely that a type developed a greater intellect to survive? I know it parallels primates and us but I am only suggesting that jellyfish aren't intelligent because they don't need to be and evolution suggests we are because we needed to be to survive. With that in mind, would they develop centralized brains, limbs or anything else more humanoid? Or would they develop their own kind of 'successful' shape? Of course, again, our perspective of evolution.

How about intelligent design? No, I am not trying to draw religion into this at all. I am merely suggesting some type of advanced "terraforming" in the precursor line of thinking. How about the idea that aliens seeded our planet in the hopes of developing intelligent life (because the planet already existed in a decent bio-zone) or maybe just life in general? Like the Lensmen, we were made (or altered, it has been a few years since I read it) to fight something bigger and more nefarious.

Knowing what we know about science and evolution, it becomes easy to make the logical steps to visualize a seeding would take route and develop into its own life matrix. Even if this assumption it is based from the roots of our own perspective, yet again.

Hell, what if we were an alien slave race and gained our independence thousands of years ago? Maybe all life on Earth developed from microbes trapped on a meteor that traveled from another star, system or even galaxy, whether intentionally or even in some random, astronomically outrageous coincidence?

There might be some aliens actually on earth, cancel my last.

My mate went out with a girl who looked like Predator with his mask off. I refuse that she could have been a product of evolution.

mattyrm wrote:There might be some aliens actually on earth, cancel my last.

My mate went out with a girl who looked like Predator with his mask off. I refuse that she could have been a product of evolution.

Maybe an accident from intelligent design then?

Albatross wrote:On earth.

And everywhere else, unless we're allowing for a hell of a lot of transformation. They still operate under the same biological/chemical/mechanical principles where ever they are (unless we're going to talk about The Warp or something).

There are a lot of other contributing factors to life on earth being carbon-based, chance being one of them.

The huge amount of efficiency being another. Silicon simply doesn't work like carbon. It doesn't form the chains life is made from very well.

There's a lot of truth in this statement.

But very little substance, because you either need to base things off of what you currently know, or speculate without any worrying about logic. The later just puts you into "fantasy" territory; what if there's a city of mole men in the center of the earth? We haven't been there, we don't know it's filled with liquid nickel, etc.

GoFenris wrote:What if vertebrates never developed into predators and jellyfish competed with each other so fiercely that a type developed a greater intellect to survive? I know it parallels primates and us but I am only suggesting that jellyfish aren't intelligent because they don't need to be and evolution suggests we are because we needed to be to survive. With that in mind, would they develop centralized brains, limbs or anything else more humanoid? Or would they develop their own kind of 'successful' shape? Of course, again, our perspective of evolution.

I don't think it's possible for them to develop human-like intelligence without a centralized brain, or comparable system. The real question is "what needs could possibly cause a jellyfish to evolve that sort of brain?" It's not simply a matter of fierce competition, as being a genius doesn't make you a very good jellyfish; what are you going to do with that intelligence? Jellyfish have very little reason to communicate, they have very limited senses, they can't manipulate anything around them, etc. Being more poisonous, or reproducing faster, or glowing, etc, are what makes jellyfish better.

An octopus would probably be a good example of something vaguely "jellyfish like" that has potential to become intelligent. They can manipulate things to a good degree with their tentacles; they have good eyesight; they communicate with each other; they live on the sea floor, where there's stuff to interact with. I don't think octopi are hugely intelligent overall (although they're the smartest invertebrates), so I would guess they still need quite a few changes.

How about intelligent design? No, I am not trying to draw religion into this at all. I am merely suggesting some type of advanced "terraforming" in the precursor line of thinking. How about the idea that aliens seeded our planet in the hopes of developing intelligent life (because the planet already existed in a decent bio-zone) or maybe just life in general? Like the Lensmen, we were made (or altered, it has been a few years since I read it) to fight something bigger and more nefarious.

It would be so fun to learn we're the ultimate super-soldier race in the galaxy.

Knowing what we know about science and evolution, it becomes easy to make the logical steps to visualize a seeding would take route and develop into its own life matrix. Even if this assumption it is based from the roots of our own perspective, yet again.

Hell, what if we were an alien slave race and gained our independence thousands of years ago? Maybe all life on Earth developed from microbes trapped on a meteor that traveled from another star, system or even galaxy, whether intentionally or even in some random, astronomically outrageous coincidence?

The thing about astronomically outrageous coincidences is, we exist, so the only thing that would make our having been created by an astronomically outrageous coincidence less likely is alternative possibilities of creation. If there are none, the astronomically outrageous coincidence must have been it.

mattyrm wrote:There might be some aliens actually on earth, cancel my last.

My mate went out with a girl who looked like Predator with his mask off. I refuse that she could have been a product of evolution.

Lol, but seriously, many people and organizations believe strongly in the fact that Aliens actually live here.


I read this book once, it was called U.F.O. iirc and it was a pretty epic read. Now you can't believe evrything someone tells you, of course, but that book had some really weird infos and evidence...read it if you ever get a chance to!

Something to think about...

-THE PYRAMIDS...leading experts in the buliding and architecure industry say that even TODAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BUILD THE PYRAMIDS. Yes, ladies and gents, IMPOSSIBLE. Google it and have a bit of a look around...

-THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE...that's were all the planes and ships got lost, many scientists say that is because of special and rare gases in the water in this region that act as "detergent", so anything that swims there, sinks...BUT PLANES DON'T SWIM.......

I'll be back soon stay tuned...

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Something to think about...

-THE PYRAMIDS...leading experts in the buliding and architecure industry say that even TODAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BUILD THE PYRAMIDS. Yes, ladies and gents, IMPOSSIBLE. Google it and have a bit of a look around...

I've only heard that it's economically unfeasible; i.e., no government on earth could get away with wasting that kind of labor on a monument. The Great Wall of China being another project that couldn't realistically be done.

I haven't heard of it being physically impossible, though.

-THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE...that's were all the planes and ships got lost, many scientists say that is because of special and rare gases in the water in this region that act as "detergent", so anything that swims there, sinks...BUT PLANES DON'T SWIM.......

I'll be back soon stay tuned...

I thought the Bermuda triangle mystery was debunked; they don't have a higher rate of missing ships/planes than any other area of sea that has equivalent traffic. I mean, there are tons of ships and planes that go through he Bermuda triangle, you're going to have a lot of accidents simply because of the that scale.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

r3n3g8b0y wrote:Something to think about...

-THE PYRAMIDS...leading experts in the buliding and architecure industry say that even TODAY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BUILD THE PYRAMIDS. Yes, ladies and gents, IMPOSSIBLE. Google it and have a bit of a look around...

I've only heard that it's economically unfeasible; i.e., no government on earth could get away with wasting that kind of labor on a monument. The Great Wall of China being another project that couldn't realistically be done.

I haven't heard of it being physically impossible, though.

-THE BERMUDA TRIANGLE...that's were all the planes and ships got lost, many scientists say that is because of special and rare gases in the water in this region that act as "detergent", so anything that swims there, sinks...BUT PLANES DON'T SWIM.......

I'll be back soon stay tuned...

I thought the Bermuda triangle mystery was debunked; they don't have a higher rate of missing ships/planes than any other area of sea that has equivalent traffic. I mean, there are tons of ships and planes that go through he Bermuda triangle, you're going to have a lot of accidents simply because of the that scale.

Good points, orkeo!

Dammit, i watched all those docos where they explained everythin,but i can't recall the names..

Crablezworth wrote:Ok well take it to the next step and say there is a race or many races of aliens that are advanced enough to have not only solved the problem of faster than light travel but have also conquered dimensionality. Would they be advanced enough to observe us without making contact or letting themselves be known. I would like to believe that many UFO cases are evidence to the existence of alien life. Not evidence enough to be certain of anything, but I’d really really like there to be little green men piloting those things.

it would be pretty easy to observe us as we pump out a whole load of radiowaves (tv,radio,communications)

for the kind of travel required to get here aliens would need either faster than light technology, multi-generational ships (like craftworlds) or suspended animation of crew on an automated navigation system of some sort, i'm open to all three possibilities with the first one being the least likely.

it is also believed in some scientific circles that life (bacteria) may have arrived on earth trapped in comets during the kidergarden years of the planet

What if we are aliens and came from outer space to the Earth...there are a few theories on this, google it...

r3n3g8b0y wrote:What if we are aliens and came from outer space to the Earth...there are a few theories on this, google it...

I don't know, doesn't all animal DNA on earth share a commonality?