GW Cease and Decist for X-Mas? We've got a present for you too GW!

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**BaronIveagh**

Elitist Jerk wrote:I agree with this. Most of you have no idea what it takes to run a company, yet you feel you can be Monday morning quarterbacks. How many of you have degrees in business or have actually ran one that does as much business as GW? Honestly if you just complain and offer little no solution other than "WHINE WHINE WHINE make stuff cheaper WHINE WHINE WHINE" do you think anyone will take you seriously? I for one think GW has gotten much better as a company, their models are only becoming more amazing and more involved. The rules for their games are getting better too. I can't wait to spend money on my new Skaven army.

Oh and one more thing. This is a hobby. If you don't like the prices or don't like the company then quit. No one is forcing you to play this HOBBY (read not essential). If you want to be all gung ho about the cost of something, try the price of food or gas. Care about something that actually makes a difference.

Wow, what an amazing pair of lips you have that on your very first post you can kiss GW ass AND irritate me at the same time!

Achem: I do know something about business. I won't toot my own horn, due to non-disclosure.

Unless GW's suppliers of raw materials have increased their costs, (can't say I've heard of the price of tin, lead, or plastic rising THAT much) the only way the price hike was necessary is if they substantially increased wages. I can't say I've heard of that, either. So, in effect, GW is probably raising their prices to see what the market will bare. This is a standard business practice in most companies, but due to the complex interaction of GW's IP, the hamfisted approach that legal seems to be taking, and the general feeling that customers have been somehow cheated, this is a very, very poor PR move and likely to see some sort of backlash.

**Delephont**

Elitist Jerk wrote: Oh and one more thing. This is a hobby. If you don't like the prices or don't like the company then quit. No one is forcing you to play this HOBBY (read not essential). If you want to be all gung ho about the cost of something, try the price of food or gas. Care about something that actually makes a difference.

Well, while there is some logic in your statement, you seem to forget some basic truths, based on how much people spend on their hobbies, its probably one of the most important aspects of an individuals life. The price of food and gas, is to s certain extent, out of our hands...the fact that we need them is beside the point, in those areas we are a captive audience! However, people don't want to be held captive over, what is for some, the final area of freedom!

Hence the bad feeling.

**jp400**

That and some of us are tired of paying large amounts of money on an army only to have GW nerf them into non-competitiveness or squatted all together.

I know for me I have 3 full armies that are no longer even playable collecting dust on my shelf (LATD, IG AC, Pure Harly) plus one that is sitting till the next dex comes out in the hopes that the army flavor will come back. (CSM)

**warpcrafter**

Elitist Jerk wrote:
Ghidorah wrote:Sorry. I didn't feel like reading 5 pages about a pointless thread, so I'm just going to reply to the OP. That's where all the nonsense started anyway.

Deadshane1 wrote:GW just sent another C&D to Fumbbl.com.
I fail to see where this is a problem. See next reply.

Deadshane1 wrote:MANY people are upset somehow by GW's heavy hand. We should all understand that they have to protect their IP, but in this case fumbbl has been around for some 10+ years.
Heavy hand? Seriously? GW created a brilliant game and they want to protect their IP, so let's boycott their "heavy-handed" ways.

You yourself said that, while you play the board game, you play at fumbbl.com, too. Why should GW allow this java-based BB client to exist when it is causing them to lose money? This is the most stupid arguement ever. GW just released a BB game for the PC through Cyanide. It's called "Blood Bowl" in case you haven't heard of it. Did you purchase a copy of the new BB game?

No?

I thought not. Why should you purchase it when you can play it for free at fumbbl.com, right? Who cares if it has gak graphics. The game still plays like the board game, but it's FREE! The fact that it has been around for 10+ years doesn't mean gak. Until about a year ago, fumbbl.com wasn't conflicting with anything GW had going on. In fact, fumbbl.com and GW were a symbiotic relationship, both feeding one anothers' existence. Now that GW has a BB game out, fumbbl.com is eating into their possible profit margins. As such, they are now a problem that GW has EVERY RIGHT to ask to shut down.

Look at it this way, you (fumbble.com) and your best friend (GW) have been bros for 10-12 years. You went to school together, drank massive amounts of beer, partied your asses off. Now, he suddenly starts seriously dating some chick (Cyanide) and they move in together and have a kid on the way (new BB pc game). That dynamic between you and the dude has changed forever. The dude (assuming he's a real man) will cut you out completely to focus his attentions on the newly created child that he is forever blood-bonded to.

Deadshane1 wrote:They specifically state that you MUST own the game to play there.
lol... This OBVIOUSLY qualifies them as exempt to the GW IP copyrights.
A) I'm sure that everyone who plays at fumbbl.com has a copy of the board game.
B) I'm sure that fumbbl.com verifies that every single registered player has a copy of the board game before allowing them to d/l the program and play.

The fact that you even uttered this comment as a qualifier for why GW is wrong for shutting down fumbbl.com is ludicrous.
It's like trying to sell your WoW account on ebay. While the account is in your name (financially responsible) all content, items, money, characters, etc. are still property of Blizzard Entertainment. To get around this, people on ebay tried to say, "All content is property of Blizzard. You are paying me for the TIME I spent getting the characters where they are."

People do this while selling antiques and stuff all the time, too. You take an old furniture item to an antique shop and tell them some long story about how your wife's mother's mother's mother had it made when they finshed their long trek from Delaware to Oregon during the manifest destiny land-grab in the 1800's.
The dealer doesn't give a rat's ass if your great-great uncle Chuck built the damned item himself. It isn't worth any more money if the dealer finds out that great-great uncle Chuck gnawed the trees down to make this furniture with his own teeth.
It's worth money depending on how old it is, what condition it's in and, most importantly, if the dealer feels he can resell it at a profit. That's it.

Stating that players MUST own the game before playing there (I just can't help laughing at the idiocy of this statement... lmao) doesn't mean dick.

Go buy Cyanide's Blood Bowl for PC and let fumbbl.com go the way of the dinosaurs. It sucks, it's ugly, and it's outdated. Quit being a cheapass and spend $50 on a VASTLY superior pc Blood Bowl.

Now then, if you want to start another mindless mob and picket GW for their nonsensical and unreasonable price hikes, count me in.

Ghidorah

I agree with this. Most of you have no idea what it takes to run a company, yet you feel you can be Monday morning quarterbacks. How many of you have degrees in business or have actually ran one that does as much business as GW? Honestly if you just complain and offer little no solution other than "WHINE WHINE WHINE make stuff cheaper WHINE WHINE WHINE" do you think anyone will take you seriously? I for one think GW has gotten much better as a company, their models are only becoming more amazing and more involved. The rules for their games are getting better too. I can't wait to spend money on my new Skaven army.

Oh and one more thing. This is a hobby. If you don't like the prices or don't like the company then quit. No one is forcing you to play this HOBBY (read not essential). If you want to be all gung ho about the cost of something, try the price of food or gas. Care about something that actually makes a difference.

You win the award for the most descriptive username. Now do us all a favor and go away.

**TBD**

warpcrafter wrote:You win the award for the most descriptive username. Now do us all a favor and go away.

So basically it is: "I don't like your opinion, so go away".

The political leaders of China and Cuba approve of this message

**LunaHound**

Hey Elitist Jerk , may i say something?
You say we care about pointless things ... yet arnt you the one that care enough to read this thread + make an account just tell us your opinion?

Double standard mister :x

**Shaman**

Thing is The only way to really hurt GW is to go to a completely new game system.

As you can see that is difficult haha.

**krusty**

i was thinking the same thing luna...

while it seems like this kinda thing could really gain momentum fast, it seems like people are wayyy to soft to be able to keep it for 2 months...

**insaniak**

This thread's wandering rather close to the line marked 'Locking and Handing Out Suspensions: Queue Here'

Let's stick with the topic at hand, and lay off the personal attacks, can we?

**nels1031**

For those that don't know, GW legal has responded to this whole C&D situation with a fairly honest and cordial letter that spells it out clearly that they HAVE to protect their IP. Their response pretty much covered all the bases of what they've done and why. If you haven't read it, I suggest you do:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/09/31255#more-31255

If that doesn't make it clear for you, nothing will. Pay good attention to the sencond to last sentence, which conflicts with what all of this is about = "Big bad GW shutting down fansites".

Like I said earlier, most are just jumping on the GWbash train solely because its something new to complain about and allows them to pretend to be trademark attornies or business experts.

Also, desist is spelled wrong in the title of this thread. Thats been annoying me all day.

**TBD**

Shaman wrote:Thing is The only way to really hurt GW is to go to a completely new game system.

As you can see that is difficult haha.

Marneus Karchev!

**BaronIveagh**

NELS1031 wrote:For those that don't know, GW legal has responded to this whole C&D situation with a fairly honest and cordial letter that spells it out clearly that they HAVE to protect their IP. Their response pretty much covered all the bases of what they've done and why. If you haven't read it, I suggest you do:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/09/31255#more-31255

If that doesn't make it clear for you, nothing will. Pay good attention to the sencond to last sentence, which conflicts with what all of this is about = "Big bad GW shutting down fansites".

Like I said earlier, most are just jumping on the GWbash train solely because its something new to complain about and allows them to pretend to be trademark attornies or business experts.

Also, desist is spelled wrong in the title of this thread. Thats been annoying me all day.

Eh, my position is that the domain name issue has legal precedent behind it to show that webmasters may contest this policy, and that GW's claims don't hold a lot of legal water in some cases.

**Aduro**

I like how the official response letter from GW says that we can't advertise Warhammer night at the FLGS using the name Warhammer.

**Kanluwen**

Aduro wrote:I like how the official response letter from GW says that we can't advertise Warhammer night at the FLGS using the name Warhammer.

Psst.

That's not what it says.

It says that your league cannot have the name "Warhammer" in it.

You can have Warhammer Night at Joseph's Hobby Shop all you want.

You can't, however, have Warhammer of Justice league nights at Joseph's Hobby Shop, or Blood Bowltastic league nights.

**Elitist Jerk**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Elitist Jerk wrote:I agree with this. Most of you have no idea what it takes to run a company, yet you feel you can be Monday morning quarterbacks. How many of you have degrees in business or have actually ran one that does as much business as GW? Honestly if you just complain and offer little no solution other than "WHINE WHINE WHINE make stuff cheaper WHINE WHINE WHINE" do you think anyone will take you seriously? I for one think GW has gotten much better as a company, their models are only becoming more amazing and more involved. The rules for their games are getting better too. I can't wait to spend money on my new Skaven army.

Oh and one more thing. This is a hobby. If you don't like the prices or don't like the company then quit. No one is forcing you to play this HOBBY (read not essential). If you want to be all gung ho about the cost of something, try the price of food or gas. Care about something that actually makes a difference.

Wow, what an amazing pair of lips you have that on your very first post you can kiss GW ass AND irritate me at the same time!

Achem: I do know something about business. I won't toot my own horn, due to non-disclosure.

Unless GW's suppliers of raw materials have increased their costs, (can't say I've heard of the price of tin, lead, or plastic rising THAT much) the only way the price hike was necessary is if they substantially increased wages. I can't say I've heard of that, either. So, in effect, GW is probably raising their prices to see what the market will bare. This is a standard business practice in most companies, but due to the complex interaction of GW's IP, the hamfisted approach that legal seems to be taking, and the general feeling that customers have been somehow cheated, this is a very, very poor PR move and likely to see some sort of backlash.

I can see why you would make the assumptions you just did based on this being my first "official" post under this user name. Sorry that you seem to be offended that I am "defending" a company which I like to buy product from. While their prices might seem a bit high on some things (like 45 dollars for the Space Wolves character on wolf) others seem about right. You bring up a good point about the cost of materials, but who says that is the only thing driving cost? A mod on here already pointed out that the majority of their sales come from the new guy who comes in and drops some cash on the game. He has no idea about how these prices have gone up over time nor does he probably care that much. They charge what they do because they can. I think some of you are forgetting that a company has a single job and that is to make the most money possible for its shareholders and company owners. That is it. They have no obligation to you whatsoever.

And to those saying its hipocritcal for me to say not to care about GW's policies and then post in this thread think about what you just typed. I never said I didn't care, I said that it is a hobby and that if you don't like it you don't have to play it.They are two very different things, but I do appreciate you lumping them together.

Anyway as per the topic of the boycott, it has already been brought up but this will have little to no effect. There are better ways, which again have been mentioned in this thread, that should be explored besides this. All this does is make you seem like those crazy people who fly off the handle about everything.

**pombe**

Well, let's say this works. That we boycott GW and they feel a pinch.

How do you know they will react the way we want them to?

How do you know they won't respond to the loss in sales as a motivator to cut more stuff they might feel as a poor investment or an unnecessary expense?

Say, we boycott and cost them $250,000 in sales.

Will they say "Oh, we've pissed off our fanbase and they've stopped spending money on our products because they are unhappy with our policies, we should start listening more to what they have to say."?

or

Will they say "4th Quarter Profits are down. Upon further analysis, Dark Eldar sales aren't justifiable given our recent losses. Give them the Squat treatment."?

Boycotts only work if a company loses money and has no other alternative but to cater to the boycott. As of now, I can see them completely gutting their Specialist Games and less popular armies (and other services) before giving into pressure from their consumer base.

**Arklite**

Elitist Jerk wrote:
I can see why you would make the assumptions you just did based on this being my first "official" post under this user name. Sorry that you seem to be offended that I am "defending" a company which I like to buy product from. While their prices might seem a bit high on some things (like 45 dollars for the Space Wolves character on wolf) others seem about right. You bring up a good point about the cost of materials, but who says that is the only thing driving cost? A mod on here already pointed out that the majority of their sales come from the new guy who comes in and drops some cash on the game. He has no idea about how these prices have gone up over time nor does he probably care that much. They charge what they do because they can. I think some of you are forgetting that a company has a single job and that is to make the most money possible for its shareholders and company owners. That is it. They have no obligation to you whatsoever.

And to those saying its hipocritcal for me to say not to care about GW's policies and then post in this thread think about what you just typed. I never said I didn't care, I said that it is a hobby and that if you don't like it you don't have to play it.They are two very different things, but I do appreciate you lumping them together.

Anyway as per the topic of the boycott, it has already been brought up but this will have little to no effect. There are better ways, which again have been mentioned in this thread, that should be explored besides this. All this does is make you seem like those crazy people who fly off the handle about everything.

I have added emphasis to a few points that I wish to hit on;

Some ways back, on page 4 or so, I do point out that the corporation has a responsibility to its' shareholders. Now that responsibility, to distill it down, is to make money. What I disagree with is your statement regarding their obligation to the customer. To a certain degree, a coporation like GW PLC can get away with some arrogance, but in almost every other retail market no company would intentionally alienate part of their client-base.

Quite a few people have pointed out that no number of people organized on the internet could possibly have an effect on GW policy. Now, with my experiences in large multi-market retail companies, even one angry customer is taken very seriously. The amount of damage a legitimately disgruntled consumer can do in our digital age is downright frightening, and most modern businesses are aware of this. The best example I can use is a large sporting goods corporation that I once worked for;

This company now has 26 stores across the US, operates a massive catalog business that sells to 47 states and over 100 foreign countries, and the annual revenue is somewhere north of $1.75 billion on average. Any time that a customer phoned the customer service line to discuss something that angered them or annoyed them, Public Relations would initiate an investigation, sometimes resulting in far-reaching policy changes for the whole company! All over one phone-call?

It's because any annoyed customer that we ignored could have the potential to cause damage that would reach for years. We not only calculated the immediate loss of revenue, but the loss of revenue over the customers life-time, as well as the impact that they could have on the purchases of their friends and relatives. They could then take their problem to "the internet", which would then expose the problem to the entire world. The customer could now potentially effect sales far outside their own geographical area, and if they found others with a similar problem, they could do quantifiable damage to the "corporate image".

All this from a company who's operating income is higher than GW's total revenue? It all can have an effect, but it takes reasoned discourse and organized behavior to accomplish it.

It just takes a little more intelligence than, "Yarrgh! I hate GW 'cus they stole my moneyz!!"

Finally, I do agree that a boycott will have minimal effect, as the up-swing in sales that would be experienced at the end would offset any losses incurred.

**JohnHwangDD**

Kanluwen wrote:You can't, however, have Warhammer of Justice league nights at Joseph's Hobby Shop, or Blood Bowltastic league nights.

I'll bet you can have Blood Bowltastic league nights if you're an AMF bowling alley...

**Elitist Jerk**

I agree that to an extent a company does have an "obligation" to the customer, as you have pointed out. This is a very valid point, and I agree that they do have a responsibility to those who are intelligent to actually know what they are upset about and what they want. The average person on the internet who gets all huffy about something has no coherent argument, let alone knows the details of why they are actually upset. They go off the handle saying "PRICES ARE TOO HIGH FIX THEM GOD". Or they get up in arms over these sites that are being asked to restructure because GW wants to protect their IP.

So I guess I can agree that if there was a more cohesive way of getting the point across to them then that would be fine. But trying to instigate a rebellion over the internet seems a bit too Marxist for me. Eviscerate the proletariat and all that mess. Cheers to actual intellectual conversations.

**insaniak**

Arklite, it may seem like I'm ignoring the rest of your post (I'm not) but it really comes down to this:

Arklite wrote:Now, with my experiences in large multi-market retail companies, even one angry customer is taken very seriously.

The thing is, if that angry customer is standing in a store, or is on the phone, GW does indeed take it seriously. Their customer service at the retail end is, from my experience, second to none.

Where they fall down is that they seem to have a remarkably blinkered and backwards view of the internet. Various comments from numerous GW people over the years (including games developers) have suggested that they just don't take the various forums that seriously, and write off all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on as just the usual internet hyperbole from a very vocal minority rather than anything to actually worry about.

The problem for all of us is that it's hard to tell whether or not they're right in that view. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking, 'Yeah, there's a lot of people on Dakka, so we must be a force to be reckoned with'... but in the grand scheme of things, just how big a force are we?

I've encountered several hundred gamers from around various parts of Australia in my time playing 40K. And from those that I've talked to, barely a handful actually spend any time on internet forums. And a large number of those have a similar view to the wailing and gnashing that GW does.

So, yeah, that one angry customer can make a difference... but they have to get angry in the right place to make that difference.

**JohnHwangDD**

pombe wrote:Say, we boycott and cost them $250,000 in sales.

Based on previous calculation, I still doubt an Internet boycott would come near that number...

**Arklite**

insaniak wrote:Arklite, it may seem like I'm ignoring the rest of your post (I'm not) but it really comes down to this:

Arklite wrote:Now, with my experiences in large multi-market retail companies, even one angry customer is taken very seriously.

The thing is, if that angry customer is standing in a store, or is on the phone, GW does indeed take it seriously. Their customer service at the retail end is, from my experience, second to none.

Where they fall down is that they seem to have a remarkably blinkered and backwards view of the internet. Various comments from numerous GW people over the years (including games developers) have suggested that they just don't take the various forums that seriously, and write off all of the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on as just the usual internet hyperbole from a very vocal minority rather than anything to actually worry about.

The problem for all of us is that it's hard to tell whether or not they're right in that view. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking, 'Yeah, there's a lot of people on Dakka, so we must be a force to be reckoned with'... but in the grand scheme of things, just how big a force are we?

I've encountered several hundred gamers from around various parts of Australia in my time playing 40K. And from those that I've talked to, barely a handful actually spend any time on internet forums. And a large number of those have a similar view to the wailing and gnashing that GW does.

So, yeah, that one angry customer can make a difference... but they have to get angry in the right place to make that difference.

You are very correct, sir.

Hence my advocacy for other methods of showing GW the true "state of the hobby". Well-written correspondence tends to be the best initial method of contact, as the time and emotion taken to write and mail a letter is seen as much greater than an e-mail or phone-call by many of today's Customer Service depts.

**BaronIveagh**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
pombe wrote:Say, we boycott and cost them $250,000 in sales.

Based on previous calculation, I still doubt an Internet boycott would come near that number...

I dunno. The way some of us spend money, that could be just six people...

**Shaman**

insaniak seems to be spot on to me..

None of my friends who play frequent the forums regularly. And although they may get peeved occasionally in real life no one gets anywhere near as peeved compared to the internet. Well Ive never seen it.

**JohnHwangDD**

BaronIveagh wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
pombe wrote:Say, we boycott and cost them $250,000 in sales.

Based on previous calculation, I still doubt an Internet boycott would come near that number...

I dunno. The way some of us spend money, that could be just six people...

When I'm spending $50k/year on entertainment, if "the GW hobby" doesn't include hookers and blow, they're not getting a penny!

**BaronIveagh**

The problem is it's cynicism vs Optimism. Optimists believe they can achieve something by working together and protesting perceived wrongs. Cynics believe optimists are wasting their time and that the world is irredeemably corrupt.

Basically, in this case, optimists are shouting for GW to 'Halt your Evil Ways!' while the cynics try to explain their lack of caring by repeatedly informing the optimists how they'll fail, and how the universe will inevitably align with the powers what is to crush them utterly.

You can see how 40k appeals to cynics a lot.

Personally I'll believe that any of us are motivated to do anything about it as soon as one of you sets yourself on fire in front of Games Workshop HQ to protest their inhumanity.

**warpcrafter**

I'm a cynic, but I've decided to try making what little difference I can, so don't try to bring me down.

**captain.gordino**

Arklite wrote:Finally, I do agree that a boycott will have minimal effect, as the up-swing in sales that would be experienced at the end would offset any losses incurred.

That's the biggest problem with this whole thing, in my opinion. If you don't like the company, stop buying from them and support someone else, don't just hold off on your purchases.

**NAVARRO**

captain.gordino wrote:
Arklite wrote:Finally, I do agree that a boycott will have minimal effect, as the up-swing in sales that would be experienced at the end would offset any losses incurred.

That's the biggest problem with this whole thing, in my opinion. If you don't like the company, stop buying from them and support someone else, don't just hold off on your purchases.

I agree, spending the hobby money on another miniature company will be much more positive overall.

**Agamemnon2**

BaronIveagh wrote:The problem is it's cynicism vs Optimism. Optimists believe they can achieve something by working together and protesting perceived wrongs. Cynics believe optimists are wasting their time and that the world is irredeemably corrupt.

The difference being, the latter's viewpoints are actually attributable to real-world phenomena. Nine out of ten boycotts fail to produce any kind of result except a warm fuzzy feeling in the protestors.