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Fexor:

My main point is the differences in most Marine codexes can be overcome by tweaking the Force Organization Charts (FOC) or weapon options available to certain squads. At the moment, GW seems to be using special characters to enable those differences. For example, Vulcan allows more flamers and meltas, Pedro allows some elites to be scoring etc.

You state Vanguard can't take jump packs and if they could they'd be better. My reply is let a special character allow that. The Death Company is more or less Vanguard. Allow a special character such as a particular Chaplain turn Vanguard into Death Company whether that is adding jump packs, more or less weapon options, or applying a Universal Special Rule (USR).

What makes a Baal Predator different than Predators from other chapters? The TL AC turret. So allow a special character to allow that (and overcharged engines if that is deemed to be required for a Blood Angels army). Similarly, a furioso is not much more than a dread or venerable dread with an additional dreadnought CCW. Allow that via special character or even an army wide USR. The unit stats for nearly every unit in all the various marine codexes fall into 3 stats: one for heroes, one for elites, and one for everybody else. I don't see the need for an entire codex release in order to show these small differences.

This approach could be applied to most other chapters with a dedicated codex as well. I suspect a USR would be able to handle the mixed squads of Black Templars (which, IIRC only made their appearance in 3rd edition), the Emperor's Champion is a special character, etc. The Salamanders had their own "Codex" at the time as well and they are now contained in the Codex: Space Marines book (and still quite popular from what I see here on Dakka). Space Wolves I'm willing to cut a little more slack on, but I don't see how some real thought couldn't get them in the main Codex or again a second Codex that deals with Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars.

A post upthread stated that lots of Blood Angel players tried to play 'red marines' when Codex: Space Marines came out but that they returned to their Codex after a while. Another one stated that there's lots of Blood Angels' players in a certain region in the US. To me that suggests that the Blood Angels don't *need* a codex earlier than some of the other armies. Obviously, there is a great deal of anticipation for a new Codex from BA players, but the same can be said of any army.

As for the Assault Squads being scoring, I never stated that that attribute made assault squads as troops overly powerful. I don't think that assault squads as troops are great as sitting on an objective with close combat weapons isn't exactly a winning tactic. However, making them troops does increase their value vis-a-vis other marine assault squads.

It isn't that I am against a Blood Angels Codex. I'm against a Blood Angels Codex, now. I'd also prefer to see most marine Codexes in one or at most 2 Codexes, but as I've stated many times, I know GW won't do this simply because people buy marines so much. I've outlined several means of allowing marine players to have their cake and eat it too as well as letting GW keep releasing marine models while letting non-marine players be able to look forward to a Codex release each edition.

I hope this answers your questions and response.

Best,
DD

Edit: two spelling mistakes

Yeah, it's possible that you could merge the variant SM codices and simplify the SM landscape. I suppose it would make the Chaos folks and Xeno players feel a little better because there would be only one SM book instead of five. For about 5 minutes. Then it would become "how come the SMs get a 200 page codex and ours only has 84 pages? It's not fair...."

In any case it will never come to pass because the bottom line is that there is a market for the variant chapter codices and GW can serve that market comparitively cheaply both in terms of rules development and model design.

Arschombe: I'd like to give people a little more credit than that. It certainly isn't a reason to not try it. Do you really think Space Marines wouldn't still continue to receive the most updates throughout the lifespan of an edition?

I don't know how many more times I need to say GW will never leave their 'max marine' codex model.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

G

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Fexor:

My main point is the differences in most Marine codexes can be overcome by tweaking the Force Organization Charts (FOC) or weapon options available to certain squads. At the moment, GW seems to be using special characters to enable those differences. For example, Vulcan allows more flamers and meltas, Pedro allows some elites to be scoring etc.

You state Vanguard can't take jump packs and if they could they'd be better. My reply is let a special character allow that. The Death Company is more or less Vanguard. Allow a special character such as a particular Chaplain turn Vanguard into Death Company whether that is adding jump packs, more or less weapon options, or applying a Universal Special Rule (USR).

What makes a Baal Predator different than Predators from other chapters? The TL AC turret. So allow a special character to allow that (and overcharged engines if that is deemed to be required for a Blood Angels army). Similarly, a furioso is not much more than a dread or venerable dread with an additional dreadnought CCW. Allow that via special character or even an army wide USR. The unit stats for nearly every unit in all the various marine codexes fall into 3 stats: one for heroes, one for elites, and one for everybody else. I don't see the need for an entire codex release in order to show these small differences.

This approach could be applied to most other chapters with a dedicated codex as well. I suspect a USR would be able to handle the mixed squads of Black Templars (which, IIRC only made their appearance in 3rd edition), the Emperor's Champion is a special character, etc. The Salamanders had their own "Codex" at the time as well and they are now contained in the Codex: Space Marines book (and still quite popular from what I see here on Dakka). Space Wolves I'm willing to cut a little more slack on, but I don't see how some real thought couldn't get them in the main Codex or again a second Codex that deals with Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars.

A post upthread stated that lots of Blood Angel players tried to play 'red marines' when Codex: Space Marines came out but that they returned to their Codex after a while. Another one stated that there's lots of Blood Angels' players in a certain region in the US. To me that suggests that the Blood Angels don't *need* a codex earlier than some of the other armies. Obviously, there is a great deal of anticipation for a new Codex from BA players, but the same can be said of any army.

As for the Assault Squads being scoring, I never stated that that attribute made assault squads as troops overly powerful. I don't think that assault squads as troops are great as sitting on an objective with close combat weapons isn't exactly a winning tactic. However, making them troops does increase their value vis-a-vis other marine assault squads.

It isn't that I am against a Blood Angels Codex. I'm against a Blood Angels Codex, now. I'd also prefer to see most marine Codexes in one or at most 2 Codexes, but as I've stated many times, I know GW won't do this simply because people buy marines so much. I've outlined several means of allowing marine players to have their cake and eat it too as well as letting GW keep releasing marine models while letting non-marine players be able to look forward to a Codex release each edition.

I hope this answers your questions and response.

Best,
DD

Edit: two spelling mistakes

What updates? If they do a big fat SM book at the beginning of an edition (because SMs will always be first) what would they need to do updates for? Having one big book for SMs wouldn't solve the problem if they started releasing supplements down the road. That would get us right back to where we are today with people complaining that SMs get too much love with the largest miniatures range, biggest book and supplements that no one else gets.

The biggest hurdle to doing one SM book is that it deprives GW of their periodic release cycle for their largest selling line. They need to constantly dangle the new and shiny in customers' faces to drive sales.

I can think of these updates:

- New models throughout the year
- New bitz packs released throughout the year
- New terrain kits that if not marine specific are Imperial specific
- Background articles, Black Library novels, Foregworld models
- Supplements such as Planetstrike that have more benefits for Imperial and marine players
- More Apocalypse release options
- Chapter specific releases that can be done at any time

If they made the chapter codex's into the SM codex, you would end up with a huge confusing book. Then you have to add in the time it would take to add the chapters into the C:SM, and add the time to make ALL of the chapter models to release with the book.

The time that would take would be greater than the time it would take to release one chapter at a time with its own book.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I can think of these updates:

- New models throughout the year
- New bitz packs released throughout the year
- New terrain kits that if not marine specific are Imperial specific
- Background articles, Black Library novels, Foregworld models
- Supplements such as Planetstrike that have more benefits for Imperial and marine players
- More Apocalypse release options
- Chapter specific releases that can be done at any time

Eh, OK. I don't think that would work for GW or solve your problem. As I see it your problem is the disproportionate amount of resources consumed by the SM segment of the 40k market. They'll still be working on SM stuff instead of other stuff. I don't see it working for GW because they rely on the cool new unit with the cool new options with the cool new kit. Releasing a cool new kit a year after the cool new unit with cool new options effect wears off probably won't have the same impact as the current model.

I am going to request the mod team lock this thread as it has moved into the circular mode.

G

I can see that I am not going to convince anybody of anything so please, keep playing all those space marine armies. I'm not stopping you.

All condensing marine lists into fewer codexes does is increase the likelihood that non-marine codexes can be done before a new edition rolls out. If you play marines, you obviously don't care. If you play non-marines, you obviously want a codex in whatever is the current edition. That is the crux of the matter for me, not whether space marines get 10 new models every year.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:
All condensing marine lists into fewer codexes does is increase the likelihood that non-marine codexes can be done before a new edition rolls out. If you play marines, you obviously don't care. If you play non-marines, you obviously want a codex in whatever is the current edition.

And if a person plays both? You present this like it's a zero-sum game; that if you play marines you can't play anything else or care about any other armies.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Fexor:

My main point is the differences in most Marine codexes can be overcome by tweaking the Force Organization Charts (FOC) or weapon options available to certain squads. At the moment, GW seems to be using special characters to enable those differences. For example, Vulcan allows more flamers and meltas, Pedro allows some elites to be scoring etc.

You state Vanguard can't take jump packs and if they could they'd be better. My reply is let a special character allow that. The Death Company is more or less Vanguard. Allow a special character such as a particular Chaplain turn Vanguard into Death Company whether that is adding jump packs, more or less weapon options, or applying a Universal Special Rule (USR).

What makes a Baal Predator different than Predators from other chapters? The TL AC turret. So allow a special character to allow that (and overcharged engines if that is deemed to be required for a Blood Angels army). Similarly, a furioso is not much more than a dread or venerable dread with an additional dreadnought CCW. Allow that via special character or even an army wide USR. The unit stats for nearly every unit in all the various marine codexes fall into 3 stats: one for heroes, one for elites, and one for everybody else. I don't see the need for an entire codex release in order to show these small differences.

This approach could be applied to most other chapters with a dedicated codex as well. I suspect a USR would be able to handle the mixed squads of Black Templars (which, IIRC only made their appearance in 3rd edition), the Emperor's Champion is a special character, etc. The Salamanders had their own "Codex" at the time as well and they are now contained in the Codex: Space Marines book (and still quite popular from what I see here on Dakka). Space Wolves I'm willing to cut a little more slack on, but I don't see how some real thought couldn't get them in the main Codex or again a second Codex that deals with Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars.

A post upthread stated that lots of Blood Angel players tried to play 'red marines' when Codex: Space Marines came out but that they returned to their Codex after a while. Another one stated that there's lots of Blood Angels' players in a certain region in the US. To me that suggests that the Blood Angels don't *need* a codex earlier than some of the other armies. Obviously, there is a great deal of anticipation for a new Codex from BA players, but the same can be said of any army.

As for the Assault Squads being scoring, I never stated that that attribute made assault squads as troops overly powerful. I don't think that assault squads as troops are great as sitting on an objective with close combat weapons isn't exactly a winning tactic. However, making them troops does increase their value vis-a-vis other marine assault squads.

It isn't that I am against a Blood Angels Codex. I'm against a Blood Angels Codex, now. I'd also prefer to see most marine Codexes in one or at most 2 Codexes, but as I've stated many times, I know GW won't do this simply because people buy marines so much. I've outlined several means of allowing marine players to have their cake and eat it too as well as letting GW keep releasing marine models while letting non-marine players be able to look forward to a Codex release each edition.

I hope this answers your questions and response.

Best,
DD

Edit: two spelling mistakes

@Dal'yth Dude:
Thanks for the clarification on what you were meaning.

@Thread Post:
Now I play both Blood Angels and Tyranids, so honestly I'm getting a double whammy of fun in the coming months for codex's since they're both coming out. (Yay for me!) erhm... Anyways, I understand the desire from both sides to see codexs come out for each race in the game for the current edition. Being a Space Marine player, I actually can admit that putting Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templars into one codex seperated by sections for each Chapter would be ok with me honestly. It doesn't really matter to me. And if they priced it the same or $10 bucks cheaper than the Vanilla C:SM so be it, I'd buy it. I like my Blood Angels, I like that they're getting a new Codex, I understand the frustration of Xeno players and looking at it from their end. But at the same time, why get so upset at players that are playing Blood Angels? I mean it's not our fault that GW's choosing this release selection.

I mean whether its their personal choice, or the sales plan, or their whatever option, how is that the players fault for liking it? I've seen quite a few posts on here that are more directed at the players than the Codex. I mean as a community of gamers and enthusiasts why not be happy for our fellow members for getting something for their army? Why all the anomosity towards the player just because he's happy about his particular Army getting a codex? And so far with each release of the codex's done this far after 5th Edition's release there have been threads like this that just plunge into the abyss of anger and hostility towards fellow board members. Why? Can we not share an opinion whether it be with or against that doesn't meet with such a hostile response that borders on personal jabs and insults? I'm not saying you have to like everyone on here, far from it, I'm saying why can't we maintain a level of mutual respect when we don't agree. And if you're going to disagree have reasons to back up your thoughts, saying someones stupid or a troll really doesn't help your point, it usually just makes you look foolish and childish because you're not making a point or validating anything.

*Steps down from podium*

Anyways, back to the discussion at hand, and response to Dal'yth Dude.

I stated that Vanguard don't come with jump packs as part of their default load out, you can give the squad jump packs at an increased points cost, which to be honest as assault troops you'd think they would come with them as a standard, but they don't. The Veteran Assault marines do and that's a good points difference. (I don't remember the exact points cost of Vet. Assault Squad and I'm at work so I can't check.) And if the points cost for a Vet. Assualt Squad goes down then they'll be better than a Vanguard squad. I'm sure their weapon loadouts won't be as open as the Vanguards, otherwise that would make the Vanguards useless and you'd see Blood Angel armies popping up all over the place.

The USR for characters is a good idea, but really blocks the Army as a whole, as they have quite a few special rules and if you tried tacking them on to a few main guys, that could make them seem Over Powered to other HQ/Specail Characters selectable by other Armies. Not to mention that would mean you wouldn't see much variaty in play style/character choice, as everyones going to take the guys that give the special rules. And with about, what ...4-5(?) special characters for the Blood Angels to choose from, how do you give all the special rules to them to apply to the army without blanketing each guy with every Special Rule? Just playing devils advocate here.



As for the other stuff, *shrug* timing isn't anything we the players can control, is it unfair to other codex's that are equally as old or in need of a re-vamp, yep sure is. Can we change it, nope we can't. We'll just have to wait.


Cheers!


ps. I don't need flaming for pointing out common civility towards others in a forum either. Have a great day.

Anarchyman99 wrote:I think as each new ed. come out the codex thats the least compatable should get the update first.

Then we'll see Necrons updated in short order?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Anarchyman99 wrote:I think as each new ed. come out the codex thats the least compatable should get the update first.

Then we'll see Necrons updated in short order?

As well they should anything.....under/over-powered should get updated.....as well as anything unfluffy but that's much harder to please people with. GW is a company and they need to push the product and the lazy thing to do it not to aggressively market the other great armies but to pulg away with what they know sells with out much marketing......SPACE MARINES.......

@A99: GW has a specific product strategy for 40k. The problem for you is that it's not what you want it to be.

GW pushes Space Marines, with the specific notion that players will go from vanilla SM to variant SM (including CSM), eventually to non-SM.

It's not lazy, it's smart, and it's why 40k continues to sell well for them.

If you don't like it, you can vote with your feet, but don't think you can change GW.

I think what JohnHwangDD is trying to say, is that if you look at the armies individually, and look at how difficult they are to play well. You'll notice Space Marines and Orks are at the easier side of the spectrum, compared to say, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, etc. Every squad the Space Marines can take is very universal and do most tasks well. They're the kings of being "Jack's of All Trades, Master's of None", they do all jobs well, but don't excell at any one task. Which allows them to be the most flexible army in the game. It's also why they're the most popular, almost anyone can pick them up and do decently with them. Because all their squads have decent saves, moderate WS and BS and can hold their own fairly well. Which is why many buy them as their first army, to learn the rules with an army that has a good chance of performing well on the table. (Provided you don't have horrid luck with rolling dice.)

Now start looking at the other races, you'll notice not all their squads can do well at every task, ie. Tau Fire Warriors CC abilities, LOL. I mean compare the abilities of just the troops units from SM to Tyranids, or SM to Tau, or SM to IG, notice how much better the SM Tactical Squad will stand up to those Troops in an one-on-one engagement, also look at how well they'll last in CC with the same squads. I do know that Nid's do well in CC, but my point is the Space Marines will put a hurt on that Guant squad even if they don't survive through the CC itself.

Anyways, most of their sales are driven by the ease of the the SM/Ork playstyle (ie. AoBR boxed set is a prime example of this), and I know someone said it before in this thread on one of the pages, what is the first thing that comes to mind when you think Warhammer 40k, its a Space Marine 99% of the time. What's the most iconic image GW has, a Space Marine.

I'm not saying the other races don't deserve their models/codex/fluff updated, just demonstrating a possible thought process that is most likely for the GW company. And we can't forget that they're a company and not an enthusiast like ourselves, now I'm sure many who work there love the game and play as much, if not more than most of us, but the main goal for a company is to make money, and then appease everyone.

Just my 2 cents.


Cheers!

Back to the real topic.

I think the upgrades and price correction along with the updating of wargear will go a long way in making the BA fun again to play. If it is put in line with C:SM then we're all set.

Maybe some new psychic powers would be nice too, so we have some options rather than fly and bash.

I'm sure GW has learned a lot since the DA Codex and the WD BA Codex, so I'd expect a fair chunk of options.

And "key" Special Characters, to boot.

But as long as the core units have points costs corrected, and the DC "adder" is fair, I think things will turn out OK.

I hope they keep the Assault troops as a troop choice because I have way to many jump pack Assault troops to use as fast attack or elites (about 90)!

Capt. Von Reaper wrote:I hope they keep the Assault troops as a troop choice because I have way to many jump pack Assault troops to use as fast attack or elites (about 90)!

Wow, that's amazing amount of assault troops, jeeze.

Cheers!

And my 3 Furioso Dreadnoughts have drop pods! Terminators deepstrike! The only thing I have on the board when I start is my Ball PreditorsX2 because the death Co. has jump packs as well! I make it rain Blood Angels!!!!

Wow, you use Dante and Lemartes for your Special Characters? Pretty much keep everything off the table till turn 1 or 2.

Cheers!

If you're a JP-happy guy, Lemartes (not necessarily his exact model) is mandatory!

I heard a rumor The new bugz & BA will be the most powerful armies introduced to 5th. I am excited about it.

G

Ok, so I was looking over the FAQ/PDF Codex on the GW website and I had to correct a little personal error.

Vet. Assault Squads are not Troops, they're Elite choices. Only normal Assault Squads can be taken as troops. My bad.

So, the whole thing about the Vet. Assault Squads not getting the same weapon loadouts is invalid, since they won't be scoring units anyways. They'll probably be just like Vanguard squads. They're also the same price as a Vanguard squad would be with Jump Packs....so essentially they're the same at the moment. I don't think we'll see them change to much from the PDF Codex, sad to say. Otherwise, they'd be a much better version of the Vanguards.


Cheers!

I, for one, can't wait for C: BA, having an assault horde on jump-packs would be amazing.

I heard a rumor the other day, that the Blood Angels will be in a joint Codex with the Dark Angels. This may just be your usual GW talk from a red shirt or loose lipped black shirt or it may be true. The rumor also holds that the Fallen will be at the very least mentioned in the book the employee called the Codex "Angels of Death"

I'm not holding my breath on it, but it would be cool to see the BA and DA be in one book.

I think people are going with this rumor because both armies have the word 'Angel' in their name in addition to being space marines.

Thinking like GW: Why make one codex, when I can make two and get twice the money?

Actually, I believe GW has previously had an "Angels of Death" codex with both chapters in it.

(Not that I think they're particularly likely to do it again.)

They did previously have an "Angels of Death" codex, and like I stated I'm not gonna hold my breath over the issue.

But why is it so easy to believe that they are going to make an Inquisition Codex with the Ordo Xenos, Malleus and Hereticus. Yet people can't believe that they'd put the BA and DA in one book?