Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Anpu42 wrote:What I am seeing is that if tomorrow every race came out, then they announced that next month Codex: Marine Chapter X came out they will still be complaining about how all of the Space Marine Love.

I don't think so

A lot of the Space Marine hate appears to come from people who are sick of there always being a new SM codex within the last 2-3 codex releases, while some of the major xeno races out there go for years without so much as a new model, let alone a codex that goes with the current rules.

I personally think that they should release all the new codexes at the same time as they release a new set of rules, so that everything is all up to date and (hopefully) balanced and nothing languishes behind, never to see the light of day.

Exactly Anpu!

G

Yes realizes all of the Codices at once would be nice, but is it poor business practice. Once month everyone buys all of there books and then until the next rules update there are no real sales.

Now onto my complaining about the new Marine Codex Bashing.

When I joined Dakka there was a lot of whining about the Space Wolves and how it was Unfair the Space Marines were getting a new Codex, some about the supposed over the top powers that were going to break the game, but mostly how unfair it was that Maries were getting a new Codex and not the others.

Then Space Wolves came out and it was confirmed that the Bugs were going to get a new one and the discussion went to how there were going to be made two powerful or Nerfed, but that was all. No real complaining of why they are getting new one and not army X, just some “I wish they would work on my army first” complaints.

The moment it was announced that Codex: Blood Angles was coming out the “Why do the Marines Always get a new Codex?” has started all over again.

I relies that if the Codex: Dark Eldar goes next, then Codex: Inquisition, then Codex: Necron, then Codex: Dark Angles we will get the same thing. GW is getting around to redoing all of the Codices, they have a schedule for this, but I am getting tired of the Imperial Bashing.

The codex system is broken from a rules point of view. At any given time half the armies are out of date. But GW persists with the codices because they use them to drive model sales. The rules are very secondary.

The codex and model sales linkage extends to what armies get done and when. They don't release a codex without nifty new models. We may have armies in the pipe that have completed codices but not have new models yet and we may have armies in the pipe with models that are ready to go, but the codex isn't finished yet. BA are being released, as has been stated time and again in various threads, because they are a quick win: updated codex, a sprue or two, a resculpted Lemartes and bam that's it.

I agree that all of the SM chapters should be in one big, fat book. This may make the xenos feel a little better in that the SMs won't have so many books, but it won't improve the xeno situation at all. The big book would still require the same amount of development resources and wouldn't be any shorter than the current model of separate books. At best it would create holes in the release cycle that could be filled by completed xeno projects.

As I mentioned in an ealier post, GW is all about the cash, hence why we actually have a million SM codexes, rather than just one, and why we will never get everything at once

I think you have answered your own concerns over the "bashing" that SM codexes get really (over and above the regular grumbling that most codexes get about being OP, messed up, etc).

It is not a case of "imperial bashing", it is a case of "holy god not another SM codex" bashing.

I can't remember off the top of my head how many SM codexes there are, but say there are 10 of them.

Now, if we follow the standard format you suggest above: 3 non SM codexes, then an SM codex. That means that every year (assuming that we get 4 new codexes a year) we get a new SM codex. Now, in order to update all of them to the "current" rules as we have now would take 10 years.

Now, again, I can't remember off the top of my head how many other codexes there are out there, but I will go with about 20 (which again should tell you something if a full 1/3rd of your rule books are just for different coloured space marines [note again that I am just making up the numbers, I can't remember how many there actually are]).

At 3 a year, you need just over 6 and a half years to update them all.

However, if there was just one SM codex, it would take 1 issue to get all the SM up to date (and I am sure no one would mind much if they were released first either but there probably would still be complaints ). Then it would only take 5 years to update all the other codexes, rather than 6.5.

However, as we all know, they don't put out 4 a year every year, nor do they go SM, other, other, other, SM, etc. SM are almost always more regularly updated than that.

All my figures here are just make believe, as I don't particularly feel like looking them all up (feel free yourself, perhaps you will demonstrate that I am wrong), and just wanted to give a ball park imagining that is easy to follow as to why people get a bit sick and tired of SM always getting new stuff when there are amies that have been sitting gathering dust for 10+ years and/or removed from existance for no particular reason at all.

1.Codex: Space Marine
2.Codex: Dark Angels
3.Codex: Space Wolves
4.Codex: Black Templers
5.Codex: Blood Angles [Soon]
That-5 Marine Books
6.Codex: Imperial Guard
7.Codex: Daemon Hunters
8.Codex: Witch Hunters
-I don’t think I missed any
That’s-8 Imperial Books


1.Codex: Tyranids
2.Codex: Eldar
3.Codex: Dark Eldar
4.Codex: Chaos
5.Codex: Chaos Daemons
6.Codex: Necrons
7.Codex: Tau
8.Codex: Orks
-I don’t think I missed any
That’s-8 Xenos Books

One book is not a good solution and the majority of SM players don't want this. It's too much of a Warmachine approach to the game and GW has stated they will do each army as a separate codex. Rolling a bunch of armies into one codex is when you really start to see broken armies:

Armageddon - Speed Freaks, Templars
Eye of Terror - Lost and the Damned

There are always people will whine about SM getting all the new shiny toys... it's always been that way.

G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_(Warhammer_40,000)#5th_Edition

The above link has all the realesse dates for all the codexes back to 3rd dition (apperently) I have put them into date order (because apparently wikipedia does not like it in date order ) below for all our entertainment.

5th Edition
Space Wolves - October 2009
Imperial Guard - May 2009
Space Marines - October 2008

4th Edition
Orks - January 2008
Chaos Daemons - May 2008
Chaos Space Marines - September 2007
Dark Angels - March 2007
Eldar - November 2006
Tau Empire - March 2006
Black Templars - November 2005
Tyranids - June 2005

Blood Angels[2] N/A -


3rd Edition
Witch Hunters - April 2004
Dark Eldar (revised) - November 2003[3]
Daemonhunters - March 2003
Necrons - July 2002

There is also a chance that the Imperials are going to loos one if Codex: Inquisistion comes out.

Anpu42 wrote:1.Codex: Space Marine
2.Codex: Dark Angels
3.Codex: Space Wolves
4.Codex: Black Templers
5.Codex: Blood Angles [Soon]
That-5 Marine Books
6.Codex: Imperial Guard
7.Codex: Daemon Hunters
8.Codex: Witch Hunters
-I don’t think I missed any
That’s-8 Imperial Books


1.Codex: Tyranids
2.Codex: Eldar
3.Codex: Dark Eldar
4.Codex: Chaos
5.Codex: Chaos Daemons
6.Codex: Necrons
7.Codex: Tau
8.Codex: Orks
-I don’t think I missed any
That’s-8 Xenos Books

Yes, OR:

1. Codex Space Marines
2. Codex Imperial Guard
3. Codex Witch Hunters
4. Codex Daemonhunters
That's 4 Imperial Books

1. Codex Chaos Space Marines
2. Codex World Eaters
3. Codex Emperor's Children
4. Codex Ulthwe
5. Codex Bielt-Tan
6. Codex Saim-Hann
7. Codex Orks
8. Codex Speed Freaks
etc.

See what I did there?

Anpu42 wrote:There is also a chance that the Imperials are going to loos one if Codex: Inquisistion comes out.

I would certainly support that so long as the codexes which are being combined are properly represented within the new codex. Which one would hope and expect that they are.

I suppose it depends on if you view the 40k galaxy as containing two factions (Imperial and Xenos), or many (Imperial Guard, Space marines, Chaos, Tyranids, Eldar Orks etc etc). This effects our notions of what is a fair ammount of support. I guess if you see things according to option 1, then it would seem alright for Marines to get 5 Codexes, to make up the Imperial numbers and make them 'equal' with the Xenos. I, however, suscribe to option 2 - there are many different factions in 40k, each of them deserving of equal treatment. Marines are all types of Marines, but Tyranids and Necrons (for example) are not simply two variants of Xenos, they're entirely different and seperate to each other. They should be given equal support to each other, and each should be given the same ammount of support as Marines.

However, even if you view 40k as having two sides, you still have to admit that the past three codexes, that is all the Codexes released since 5th, have been Imperial. So either way you cut it, the non Imperial/MEQ armies are getting a raw deal, and one Xenos book between SW and BA doesn't redress the balance.

The SM have roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of all the codexes (5 of 18 so I was about right suggesting they had 1/3 of the codexes in my "guess the numbers" post.

And as I share Samus' view on what constitues "factions involved" I would agree that is simply too many SM books.

I don't think any logic will change GBF's stance.

FWIW, GW could release 2 marine codexes and easily cover everything which would free up another 3-4 codexes for non-marine players, but GW isn't going to allow it.

Player churn ensure marines will always get updates every edition while people who don't play marines may or may not get a release before the 4 year edition life cycle renews.

Heck, a special character codex with all characters in it would be a good idea. They could all be balanced and have rules for how they modify their codex units, but again GW isn't going to do that.

That link is broken.

G

SilverMK2 wrote:The SM have roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of all the codexes (5 of 18 so I was about right suggesting they had 1/3 of the codexes in my "guess the numbers" post.

And as I share Samus' view on what constitues "factions involved" I would agree that is simply too many SM books.

I would rather think that there are not enough Xenos Books, don't reduce the number of Marines, but give more options to the non-Imperial factions.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Oh Lord no one cares about your precious eldar craftworlds. Start another thread so you can cry elsewhere.

G

At first I thought you were joking, but you really are serious arnt you?


Maybe you should take the blinders off instead of insulting other members and see the hypocrisy in your statements.

Samus666 wrote:I suppose it depends on if you view the 40k galaxy as containing two factions (Imperial and Xenos), or many (Imperial Guard, Space marines, Chaos, Tyranids, Eldar Orks etc etc). This effects our notions of what is a fair ammount of support. I guess if you see things according to option 1, then it would seem alright for Marines to get 5 Codexes, to make up the Imperial numbers and make them 'equal' with the Xenos. I, however, suscribe to option 2 - there are many different factions in 40k, each of them deserving of equal treatment. Marines are all types of Marines, but Tyranids and Necrons (for example) are not simply two variants of Xenos, they're entirely different and seperate to each other. They should be given equal support to each other, and each should be given the same ammount of support as Marines.

However, even if you view 40k as having two sides, you still have to admit that the past three codexes, that is all the Codexes released since 5th, have been Imperial. So either way you cut it, the non Imperial/MEQ armies are getting a raw deal, and one Xenos book between SW and BA doesn't redress the balance.

I could not have said this better myself. Tumbs up!

Anpu42 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:The SM have roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of all the codexes (5 of 18 so I was about right suggesting they had 1/3 of the codexes in my "guess the numbers" post.

And as I share Samus' view on what constitues "factions involved" I would agree that is simply too many SM books.

I would rather think that there are not enough Xenos Books, don't reduce the number of Marines, but give more options to the non-Imperial factions.

I would love to see Hrud introduced to the fold.

G

Ok, a little back on topic. I'm excited for the new release, because the PDF Print out looks cheesy and the point values aren't exactly equal to the C:SM we have now.

Also, a couple things I just wanted to point out.

Assault Marines as troops has always been an option for BA since I started playing in 3rd edition, this is nothing new, this isn't OP because its already how they operate.

Assault Veterans do not equal Vanguard. Reason being Assault Veteran's already come with Jump Packs as part of the load out and I don't remember them getting as many weapon options as the Vanguards. (I could be wrong, its been awhile since I looked at what options they can take.)

And yes, Blood Angels are the Assault spam of the Space Marines, and they've always been that way since I've started playing. Heavy Assault troops, deep strike, and blitzing tanks with overcharged engines. Come on BA players roll them 6's and move that tank another 6.

As for model updates, I have all the special characters and besides my Dante (that I messed up since it was one my first models I painted.) I would say I rather like the poses of the BA models as they are. I wouldn't mind them being plastic so I could use my new green stuff skills on them to make them more distinct from the next BA player, but I'll take what I can get. Plus I like my existing paint jobs on some of them. lol

I understand the feelings of Xeno's players, being one myself and enjoying my Tyranids, I see the other side of the coin where you feel left out when they're trying to update the Imperial codexs. And yes there are some in dire need of resurrection, ie. Dark Eldar.

Well that's my 2 cents, take it or leave it but thanks for reading it.

Cheers!

Reverand!

Anpu42 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:The SM have roughly 1/3 - 1/4 of all the codexes (5 of 18 so I was about right suggesting they had 1/3 of the codexes in my "guess the numbers" post.

And as I share Samus' view on what constitues "factions involved" I would agree that is simply too many SM books.

I would rather think that there are not enough Xenos Books, don't reduce the number of Marines, but give more options to the non-Imperial factions.

And bloat the cycle even more? There are already multiple codecii that are two edition behind.

Why does the xenos lover scum have to pooh pooh on BA?

G

Fexor: I see what you are saying with regards to the Vanguard not having jump packs (but can't confirm it). Again, it comes down to a FOC and weapon/equipment upgrade issue.

Give BA a character that says something like this:

- A allows Vanguard to take jump packs for z points. Assault marines are considered troops
- B allows dreadnoughts to be taken as elite or heavy support options.

Don't forget that in 3rd edition troops weren't quite the same as they are now (IOW scoring units that hold objectives which themselves are more important than in 3rd edition).

Don't assume just because I don't want 4-6 marine codexes I don't play marines. I'll have a BA army in January or February, but that doesn't mean I think they *need* a Codex now nor that they *require* their own Codex.

If a company can only put out 2 Codexes in a year, an edition's lifespan is 4-5 years and there are more than 10 Codexes, obviously some armies will not be updated in a given edition. Just as obviously, Codex: Ultramarines will never be in that position.

BAs didn't get their own Codex until Thorpe's 3rd Ed once which so many people complained about back in the day. Even Angels of Death Codex was two marine chapters. In it was explicitly stated that BAs were Codex except for their dark secret (Death Company/Black Rage).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Why does the xenos lover scum have to pooh pooh on BA?

G

Here's some gold troll. Please go spend it elsewhere.

honnestly if any of the "divergent" marine chapters can be murged with Codex: vanilla marines its the DA codex, since there really isn't anything that makes the DA unique battlefield wise. All they really ever did that was unique was bikes as troops and termies as troops. They're not the "assault" marines they are just generic.

Red_Lives wrote:honnestly if any of the "divergent" marine chapters can be murged with Codex: vanilla marines its the DA codex, since there really isn't anything that makes the DA unique battlefield wise. All they really ever did that was unique was bikes as troops and termies as troops. They're not the "assault" marines they are just generic.

As a DA player i HATE to, but I agre with that statement.

For all of those that are saying marines have too many books: Face it, they wont be cut down, marines make up far too much of thier profit margin.
Why would they kill off something thats doing so well for them?

Lets face it, if Eldar had a book for each craftworld there would still be people complaining.

Whats next, kraken and leviathan needing a book each?



Its just a waiting game with GW.
New books will arrive for everyone at some point, but bitching and moaning about the current ones wont really change a thing, except maybe piss off other people.

JD21290 wrote:but bitching and moaning about the current ones wont really change a thing, except maybe piss off other people.

I always learned this: Speak up or you won't be heard.

Or in other words: If you don't let people you don't agree with the way things are going, then they will certainly not change anything. Will they change anything when people let them know that things could be better? Probably not, but as we say in Holland: If you don't shoot, it's always a miss.

yeah, but complaining doesn't get you anything. Sales are what GW monitors. If the next Codex Eldar jumps off the shelves and demonstrates a great demand for Eldar, then GW might look at doing Craftworld supplements to expand on that. They won't do it based on some wailing and gnashing of teeth on the internet. They're not going to go out on a limb for xeno variants without a good business case.

The fluff revolves around the Imperium. When was the last time the Black Library released a novel about the eldar? Yeah I know there is one. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over then expecting different results. Stop beating your head against a brick wall. I know if feels a lot better when you stop but you could really seriously hurt yourself pilgrim.

Big Daddy G