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As would having more than 2 factions.

If Marines and Chaos Marines were their own individual factions, it's quite likely they alone would outnumber Guard, Orks, Eldar, etc.

By having two factions, one each with an Astartes subfaction--it guarantees at least a small bit of population balance.

I suppose that is a good point as well, but looking back at WAR, one of the problems was the terrible population swings back and forth.

Even though this is 40k, I'm sure a lot of people are going to be reminded of the failure that was WAR. :(

I hope they put up some more info soon.

Well, putting it lightly with W:AR--the biggest problem was that people put too much emphasis into the RvR part. People went nuts creating the flavor of the day/week/month "RvR King" classes on servers where the balance was already heavily skewed.

Dystopia wrote:
Sorry, no way I'm ever gonna play WAR Online in 40k setting.

How can you call it WAR online in the 40k setting? It isn't even made by the same company. In fact its made by a company with a record for trying to stand apart from its competition by taking different approaches.

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to bitch about factions, at least wait until they announce what the faction make-up will be.

Chaos and Orks work quite well together, and have for quite awhile.

Space Marines and Imperial Guard...well, I don't think I should have to explain that one.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with the different factions. For Chaos they Bezerker, bezerkers on bikes, bezerker color dreadnought, a nurgle-ish daemon prince, and cultists. For orks, some trucks and deffcopta'. For Marines we've seen Black Templar and Ultramarines. IG, guardsmen and enginseers, and the warhound. Between Chaos and Loyalist and even within the chaos and loyalist how much intermixing will we see. Initially will we see Nurgle/Khorne/Ultramarine/Black Templar dreadnought or just the bezerker one.... same goes for the bike. Different things maybe restricted differently for each. These will be interesting things to see worked out.


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Kanluwen wrote:By having two factions, one each with an Astartes subfaction...

It seems more like each side has two astartes factions. We've already seen Black Templars, Ultramarines, and Bezerkers... but the nurglish daemon prince implies Deathguard as well.

I get the feeling Dreadnoughts, Deffkoptas, Warhounds, etc will be part of open world PvP or large battle sequences.

Bikes and Warbuggies/Wartrakks I can see as mounts.


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I was meaning "Astartes subfaction" in a broad sense of both Order and Destruction having one.

Its symantics really, but Black templars (1) and Ultramarines (2). Bezerkers (1), Nurgle (2). Thats two each, thats all I meant. I'm thinking you meant "atleast one."

When it comes to dreandnoughts, deffkopta... etc, we'll have to see. If this game does follow DOW2, much as it looks, those things could be controllable. Assumption have to be made if this is a standard one player one character approach or if it is infact a new more DOW2 approach to an MMO.

Kanluwen wrote:Well, putting it lightly with W:AR--the biggest problem was that people put too much emphasis into the RvR part. People went nuts creating the flavor of the day/week/month "RvR King" classes on servers where the balance was already heavily skewed.

I would hope that this game will have even more of an emphasis on pvp. I don't want to go punch a great unclean one for phat loots. I want to get on and go battle with people in huge open warfare.

But yes, the massive balance problems and bugs in WAR didn't help matters at all. If that game had another year or so in development, maybe it wouldn't have turned out to be such a pile of crap. At the beginning there were huge population problems, huge bugs, lag, etc. Like everything that could have possibly gone wrong, did go wrong. And unfortunately that soured a LOT of people on the game.

I hope people don't still think that way since this is coming from a completely different developer, although admittedly with no MMO experience, Darksiders was AMAZING though.

I understand the need to go with 2 factions... But did they really have to call them Order and Destruction? 40k has always been better off defining itself by its own merits, rather than trying to draw parallels to WHFB. And frankly, the less DMO associates with WAR, the better.

aka_mythos wrote:It's semantics really, but Black Templars (1) and Ultramarines (2). Bezerkers (1), Nurgle (2). That's two each, that's all I meant. I'm thinking you meant "at least one."

I get the feeling we're going to see the different Chapters of Marines being used to emphasize different roles.
Berzerkers/Black Templars being the more damage dealing oriented, Ultramarines and Nurgle being more the "balanced" ones, etc.

My intention, however, was just saying that "each faction having playable Astartes" rather than the different subfactions.
I do have to wonder if Scouts will be playable. Which would make me a very happy bunny.

When it comes to dreadnoughts, deffkopta... etc, we'll have to see. If this game does follow DOW2, much as it looks, those things could be controllable. Assumptions have to be made if this is a standard one player one character approach or if it is in fact a new more DOW2 approach to an MMO.

Oh assumptions have to be made for sure, at this point. But we should be getting more and more info.


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Archonate wrote:I understand the need to go with 2 factions... But did they really have to call them Order and Destruction? 40k has always been better off defining itself by its own merits, rather than trying to draw parallels to WHFB. And frankly, the less DMO associates with WAR, the better.

...
What else would they call it?

They called them the same thing for The 13th Black Crusade campaign. You're reading way too much into what they call them.

Plus, as said:
What else would they call them?
The Forces of the Empire and Friends? ChaosJerksCo?

aka_mythos wrote:Its symantics really, but Black templars (1) and Ultramarines (2). Bezerkers (1), Nurgle (2). Thats two each, thats all I meant. I'm thinking you meant "atleast one."

When it comes to dreandnoughts, deffkopta... etc, we'll have to see. If this game does follow DOW2, much as it looks, those things could be controllable. Assumption have to be made if this is a standard one player one character approach or if it is infact a new more DOW2 approach to an MMO.

What I would like to see, is controllable vehicles ala BF2. Now, a very interesting approach would be to have certain "battlefields" where if players fought, they would get more exp, and what not, just for fighting in that area (kind of encourages the huge epic battles)

To make the vehicle thing workable (and to fix the balance issue) the side that is outnumbered gets more (and more powerful!) vehicles, that spawn in kind of a "backzone" something behind the actual fighting, maybe near a spawn point or something.

Also, require multiple people to operate the Titans and larger vehicles. Each person could control one gun, one guy could control repairs and whatnot, and one guy could actually drive the thing.

I guess I'm hoping for more of an FPS with level benefits in a persistent world

Me and my buddy are talking about it. If they make Grey Knights available I'll be playing a Inquisitor and he is talking about playing a GK. Should be pretty awesome. I'm not sure what to think about the control set up though; the setup doesn't look as if it is unique in anyway shape or form. WoW, and LotRO had the exact same set up so I'm weary of that. Here's to hoping though.

If they stick with those 2 factions, where will Eldar fit in???

They are only in it for themselves and wouldnt ally with either faction unless they saw it as useful to them.

So lets say the Eldar join the good guys - thats 3 good guy races and only 2 bad guy races.

I'd like to see a 3rd facttion with Eldar and Tau.

Dystopia wrote:
http://www.darkmillenniumonline.com/

Dude that front page pic is EPIC!

Order: Eldar, Imperium, Tau

Destruction: Dark Eldar, Chaos, Orks

Hmm...sounds like something I've heard before...I just can't put my finger what.

/sarcasm


Anyhow, two faction are massive imbalance usually. Three would've suffice. I hope I am wrong about factions.

Aramus wrote:What I would like to see, is controllable vehicles ala BF2.

It has been stated that vehicles would be in an expansion, if the game does well enough.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I'm not sure what to think about the control set up though

It must be hard to speculate about it, since absolutely nothing about the control setup has been released.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:the setup doesn't look as if it is unique in anyway shape or form. WoW, and LotRO had the exact same set up so I'm weary of that. Here's to hoping though.

That is a bit like complaining that FPS's are in first person or that they have been using the same basic controls for almost a decade now or that platform games have a jump button. Mario and Zelda hardly make radical departures but constantly get get scores. Point being that execution will matter far more than whether the controls are a radical departure from genre norms. WoW and LotRO weren't even close to the first to use that setup, either.

Kanluwen wrote: I get the feeling we're going to see the different Chapters of Marines being used to emphasize different roles.
Berzerkers/Black Templars being the more damage dealing oriented, Ultramarines and Nurgle being more the "balanced" ones, etc.

I think we'll see them in a less symetric way. Chaos will play to extremes, Bezerkers being a faster damage dealers being light on range and defense and Nurgle being a tanking unit not doing as much damage but taking a ton. While the Loyalst might take a bit more balanced approach Black Templars still being damage dealer just not to the same degree as Bezerkers, mayber bringing in more stability or defensive abilities... I imagine Black Templars fight with a bit more finesse... Ultramarine would likely be more similar to the Black Templars, then the two chaos ones are to each other, but with an emphasis on more ranged abilities. Thus you have dichotimies within the factions but also between them.

I hope they'd eventually add more chapters/legions, though not at at the cost of other factions.

Ahtman wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I'm not sure what to think about the control set up though

It must be hard to speculate about it, since absolutely nothing about the control setup has been released.

They showed the toolbar. It is identical to WoW and LotRO, It's not that big of a deal but I wish there was some sort of inovation

Ahtman wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:the setup doesn't look as if it is unique in anyway shape or form. WoW, and LotRO had the exact same set up so I'm weary of that. Here's to hoping though.

That is a bit like complaining that FPS's are in first person or that they have been using the same basic controls for almost a decade now or that platform games have a jump button. Mario and Zelda hardly make radical departures but constantly get get scores. Point being that execution will matter far more than whether the controls are a radical departure from genre norms. WoW and LotRO weren't even close to the first to use that setup, either.

So apparently it's not okay to ask for some form of innovation with the controls? It looks like there will be but I have had no hands on experience, you haven't either and we don't have any information on the controls. I'm observing that the given toolbar shown in the video is very very similar to WoW.

Okay, it has a toolbar...?

So what?
For all you(or I) know, the toolbar could be a way to swap bolter ammunition types or issue commands.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:So apparently it's not okay to ask for some form of innovation with the controls? It looks like there will be but I have had no hands on experience, you haven't either and we don't have any information on the controls. I'm observing that the given toolbar shown in the video is very very similar to WoW.

Asking for innovation is fine, but you didn't, you complained that it was essentially what it is: an MMO. As such it is like complaining that platform games (Mario, Sonic) use a jump button same as Pitfall did back on the Atari 2600. It is part of the genre convention and always will be. Just because something uses a similar means of interface doesn't mean it is the same, and can often be subverted. Just look at Braid for an example. If you are going to complain about genre conventions, or want to change them radically, at least know where they come from, and it ain't World of Warcraft, which lifted almost every mechanic from other games. You also have to take into consideration that this game isn't being made just for you. It is a massive global release that needs to make a profit, the more the better. To do so you can't stray to far off the path so that it is easy for people to understand the mechanics anywhere. Innovative games tend to sell far less games. Usually those games are marketed knowing that and it is figured in (such as Shadow of the Colossus or Freedom Fighters). They can't really do that here as the time and energy dumped into it isn't going for a niche crowd, same as Star Wars: The Old Republic. It is the same reason Merchant and Ivory Films weren't given 200 million dollar budgets and a big summer release.

I don't know many games that don't have toolbars. I mean even the games that don't have them, do infact have them. They just hide until you click a button first. A toolbar is just an on screen mouse oriented means of having buttons. The alternative is the "old school" way of hot keying different actions to keyboard buttons and memorizing it.

Its not just a matter of convention it that of different options out their it works best. Having things pop-up and then clicking a wheel menu can be more taxing on the your platform.

Tabula Rasa had a toolbar too, and it played completely differently from any other MMO on the market.

Damn I wish that game had of had some decent content, I would have kept playing it! Its problems were certainly not in the UI or controls.

Having a 'bar' in which to map 'hotkeys' is standard in any mmo. If I want to swap from Kraken bolts to Hellfire bolts, I want to have a hotkey to do it!

Ahtman wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:So apparently it's not okay to ask for some form of innovation with the controls? It looks like there will be but I have had no hands on experience, you haven't either and we don't have any information on the controls. I'm observing that the given toolbar shown in the video is very very similar to WoW.

Asking for innovation is fine, but you didn't, you complained that it was essentially what it is: an MMO. As such it is like complaining that platform games (Mario, Sonic) use a jump button same as Pitfall did back on the Atari 2600. It is part of the genre convention and always will be. Just because something uses a similar means of interface doesn't mean it is the same, and can often be subverted. Just look at Braid for an example. If you are going to complain about genre conventions, or want to change them radically, at least know where they come from, and it ain't World of Warcraft, which lifted almost every mechanic from other games. You also have to take into consideration that this game isn't being made just for you. It is a massive global release that needs to make a profit, the more the better. To do so you can't stray to far off the path so that it is easy for people to understand the mechanics anywhere. Innovative games tend to sell far less games. Usually those games are marketed knowing that and it is figured in (such as Shadow of the Colossus or Freedom Fighters). They can't really do that here as the time and energy dumped into it isn't going for a niche crowd, same as Star Wars: The Old Republic. It is the same reason Merchant and Ivory Films weren't given 200 million dollar budgets and a big summer release.

Emphasis Mine.

I don't view it as the same. The controls with Mario and Sonic both have a jump button and so does the majority of games put out to this day. WoW has a jump button, Call of Duty has a jump button, everything has a jump button. Mario could shoot fire balls and go down pipes, that was what made him original. Sonic could go really fething fast, that is what made him original. That is what I want. I want something to make it unique aside from the 40k look. I know the game isn't being made just for me, and it looks like it may be a 3rd person shooter where you line up a crosshair to hit someone with your firearms. That would be different from any MMO I've ever played but may not be unique to an mmo.

Ohh and I'm not arguing that having a toolbar is bad, mmkay? I'm saying that It looks as though it has the same button set up as WoW with the same placement for your character in the upper left, which wasn't also original to WoW. I'm just wanting something different from WoW, I quit playing over 2 years ago because I didn't like the way it was going with mechanics (PvP, Raids, Class set ups and roles).

Ohh and Ahtman, if my previous post seemed to be confrontational it wasn't meant to be. I'm worried that it's just going to get the, "Meh, it was kind of cool but didn't do anything better or worse than WoW."

Karon wrote:They might as well call it Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine Online

There was alot more than Space Marines going on. There was chaos cultist, enginseers, imperial guard, a freakn' titan, and orks. I gurantee they will balance out space marines; its just bad game design otherwise. Just imagine all the different sentry type weapons an enginseer can deploy. Or that IG may have access to their special weapons at a lower level.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:
I'm worried that it's just going to get the, "Meh, it was kind of cool but didn't do anything better or worse than WoW."

Guns and titans make it better than WoW already (for me).

Personally, its not going to take much to beat WoW for, for me. Getting pretty tired of it after like 5+ years.

Yes, in WoW you can jump, and yes, you seemed to have completely missed the point because that wasn't it at all. The others seemed to get it though.

oops double post

Ahtman wrote:Yes, in WoW you can jump, and yes, you seemed to have completely missed the point because that wasn't it at all. The others seemed to get it though.

I'm sorry I just didn't catch your point. Can you tell me waht it was? I'm not being snarky, I'm being genuine.

Ahtman wrote:Yes, in WoW you can jump, and yes, you seemed to have completely missed the point because that wasn't it at all. The others seemed to get it though.

your point was you'd like to use arbitrary key bindings or gimicey garbage like mouse movements to do things so you can call it "innovative" and not "horrible" like it is rather than a quickbar at the bottom that you can drag things to and then hide because you know what you bound
You can customize every nuance of your controls in warcraft up to scripting basic strings of commands and decision engines, most players leave the bars on their screen because they are bad, not because they are necessary.

I'm sort of chuckling at those who are whining about the hotbars and trivial things like that. Those are essential for a good MMO.

There are certain things that form a foundation for an MMO, no matter what kind it is. That's the ability to jump, have a hotbar, a healthbar, etc.

The reason its in the top left is because its out of the way, and it looks the best there IMO, and the top left is where your minimap is.

Honestly, if you have a problem with hotbars, and trivial things like that, please don't buy the game so I don't have to play with you.

Dystopia wrote:Anyhow, two faction are massive imbalance usually. Three would've suffice. I hope I am wrong about factions.

Coming from a game like RFO where there are 3 playable races/factions, two is always better. If you have anymore, it's prone to alliance abuse. Players can contact each other outside of the game and form an unwritten alliance making their races/factions the most powerful, leaving the third or more race to usually quit. Two is really the way to go. Red vs. Blue, Good vs. Bad, don't try and fix it if it isn't broken.

I'm really excited for this game. The prospect of a 3rd person shooter MMO that's set on my favourite fantasy universe really makes me drool.