Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm waiting for you to provide proof that Wars of Faith are rare. You have yet to do so.

Thats because rare is a relative term. When you have a million planets nothing is rare. Something can be statistically rare when compared to the standard body of an organization while being perspectively common overall. Murder is an uncommon act to commit. Someone is murdered every few seconds on this planet. These ideas are not irreconcilable.

1: If you're going toi argue about the faction, at least learn to spell its name right.

You misspelled a two letter word in that sentence. The irony threatens to kill us all.

2: Nowhere in C:WH does it say this. Cite the page if you really want to press this issue, because I have the codex in front of me, and I find no such statements.

i hate image shack

It states both of these things before stating that they are called upon for ecclesiastical wars of faith. The book makes no mention of the warfleets required to prosecute interstellar campaigns. It just mentions that wars happen. Like I said in the previous post, it's a poorly written book and the sisters themselves have had be retconned several times.

IF the lack of transportation is evidence of the faction being defensive, then the Guard are also defensive. The Guard are separate from the Navy. The Munitorum quite frequently just pays chartist captains and other private owners of space ships to transport combat forces from one place to another (a prime example of this is in the second Cain book). There is no reason the Ecclesiarchy, one of the richest (possibly the richest period) organizations in the Imperium, can certainly afford to do the same thing.

The navy by it's charter and function exists to protect imperial space and transport the imperial guard. Its part of their founding. Naval fleets are assembled by the munitorum and all naval fleets have guard consignments to allow them to act in an offensive or defensive fashion on planets. Every single fleet in space carries imperial guard troops. The guard are definitely also defensive. They are the fighting force of the imperium. They do all tasks required of them that are not the sole purview of other factions.

Charter captains do not commonly have interstellar craft as those require navigators, the navigators being under the sole control of terra. They are far from common individually and they command quite a price. The interstellar limitation of using charter guilds is a stifling one in and of itself with the most powerful charter guilds being more powerful than the leaders of the individual worlds that they could be traveling too.

Again, I said that such campaigns were rare, not impossible or unheard of. Paying charter guilds is certainly doable, it's just unlikely and certainly not common. The witchhunters book is bad on the level of bad that the necron codex is bad. It's full of logical holes and I doubt it will survive in it's current form into whatever it becomes when GW chooses to renew it.


As an aside, the cain books aren't very good sources for fluff. They're canonical, but they contradict other canon. Really though, thats GWs problem anyway. Half the games canon conflicts with the other half. No one knows what meltaguns do or what happens when plasma weapons overheat and everyone writes something different. The fluffs a mess.

Too many multi-quotes for my liking.

1: Semantics arguments aren't going to get you anywhere.

2: I made a typo, yes . That is not the same as misspelling the same word consistently. Adepta, not Adeptus-- you have the codex in front of you...

3: That it does not contain details do not mean that Wars of Faith are rare.

4: Navigators are under the "control" of the Navis Nobilitae, which themselves are monitored by the Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas (along with other noble houses). The Navigators of the Navigator families are used by the Imperial Navy, just like they are used by the Chartist Captains. Thus, this is rather irrelevant. Furthermore, the Chartist Captains are powerful, but not so much so as the Ecclesiarchy. Finally, I should note that you are using a logical fallacy-- absence of evidence does not prove your point, it merely shows that GW has not expanded upon the fluff properly.

5: Yes, you do say they are rare. But I do not ask for your opinion; I ask for the proof that backs it up.

6: This is very much off-topic, so this'll be my last post in this thread. If you want to continue, make a thread in the Background forum or PM me your response.

For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

Too many multi-quotes for my liking.

1: Semantics arguments aren't going to get you anywhere.

I got comfortable with the quote system around post 2500.

2: I made a typo, yes . That is not the same as misspelling the same word consistently. Adepta, not Adeptus-- you have the codex in front of you.

Well, technically it's on my hard drive. I mostly keep getting it wrong because it's not a real word and I don't care.

3: That it does not contain details do not mean that Wars of Faith are rare.

True, a lack of information does not explicitly imply something (unless it does, but it doesn't here).

4: Navigators are under the "control" of the Navis Nobilitae, which themselves are monitored by the Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas. The Navigators of the Navigator families are used by the Imperial Navy, just like they are used by the Chartist Captains. Thus, this is rather irrelevant. Furthermore, the Chartist Captains are powerful, but not so much so as the Ecclesiarchy. Finally, I should note that you are using a logical fallacy-- absence of evidence does not prove your point, it merely shows that GW has not expanded upon the fluff properly.

The Navigator Houses hold a unique position within the Imperium; they are not answerable to the authority of the Imperium, but tend to toe the Imperial line because of the mutual benefits each side receives. Furthermore, members of the Navis Nobilite are compelled by ancient and binding oaths to serve with the Adeptus Mechanicus for a set duration in return for the Techpriests' services, serving the Imperial Navy and Merchant Fleets.
This autonomy does not however, protect the Navigators from the agents of the Inquisition. The Ordo Malleus has been assigned jurisdiction over the Navigators, to ensure the taint of Chaos is not able to take hold. Given the slightest reason, the Inquisition will ruthlessly purge any offending parties; goods and assets are seized, midnight raids on Navigator palaces are followed by arrests and a purging of those seen as tainted; their fate to be burnt as heretics or locked away in Inquisition torture chambers. As such, the Navis Nobilite are all too willing to tackle this problem internally.

I'm not sure where you're getting that they are under the control of the Sororitas. They aren't under the control of the ecclesiarchy at all, or even the imperium. Hell, the paternoval envoy is a high lord of terra. Then again, this could be another situation of GW writers not reading what they are supposed to be supplementing.

Yes, you do say they are rare. But I do not ask for your opinion; I ask for the proof that backs it up.

You are using the same fallacy by stating that they are common. I am using the logic presented within the universe of the game to come to the conclusion that they are rare. You are using the logic presented within the universe of the game to come to the conclusion that they are possible and then asserting that they are common because of that.

6: This is very much off-topic, so this'll be my last post in this thread. If you want to continue, make a thread in the Background forum or PM me your response.

I don't think debating the merits or possibilities of sisters inclusion into dark millennium is off topic. It's just a deeper discussion than the "I LIKE SCREEN SHOTS THOSE TEXTURES LOOK LIKE WORLD OF WARCRAFT" discussion that was happening before. If you wish to end it here then I have no problem doing so. I dislike debating over PM because I can't go back and edit PMs and that doesn't suit my writing style at all (8 edits on that last post of mine!).

Mel, check your 2nd Ed. Codex: SoB I sent you, if the 'War of Faith' isn't part of an Imperial 'Crusade', the Ecclesiarch has to pay for it out of pocket. So that is probobaly what Shuma is talking about, but you never know. Imperial Crusades are almost always also 'Wars of Faith' and SoB get to go on all of those on principle, and Crusades happen ALL THE fething TIME.

Ok, Shuma, lets not pull this off-topic again, just stop. You and I both know even if you are completely right (I have no idea) Melissa will still argue what she said from the start.

------------

I'm going to re-post this, since some of the information was brought up, and some may not have saw it

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=606969

Fluff is a mixture of made-up history, half-remembered ancient history, legend, propaganda and space opera pseudo-science.

Consequently it does not provide a good basis for rational argument.

If people want to argue about things, please do it nicely and do it in an appropriate thread.

Too lazy to find the quote, but Vigil Games said that in principle they have the intention to bring all fractions of 40k into the game as playable races, if that is possible (obviously not Tyranids and Necrons and maybe Daemons) and the game is successfull long enough to finance such work. See this as a long time perspective, not something happening in the first two years of the game (to be released 2012 or 2013 or later).

UltraPrime wrote:For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

I gotta agree, it gets pretty old pretty quick. Can we put a temporary ban on debating WH fluff?

Kroothawk wrote:Too lazy to find the quote, but Vigil Games said that in principle they have the intention to bring all fractions of 40k into the game as playable races, if that is possible (obviously not Tyranids and Necrons and maybe Daemons) and the game is successfull long enough to finance such work. See this as a long time perspective, not something happening in the first two years of the game (to be released 2012 or 2013 or later).

Ouch 2012 or 2013? Why didn't they just hold off showing it at E3 then until next year and just make a big showing of Space Marine for the console this year instead? That just seems pretty harsh to get people foaming at the mouth with an awesome teaser just to make you wait for 2+ years. Unless they have been working like mad on it for the last 2 years or so and are closer to release than we are being told currently. I hope that's the case anyhow.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

metallifan wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

They stated in interviews at e3 that have been posted in this exact thread multiple times that they are aiming for a release date of Q1 2013. Makes me kinda wonder what you guys are reading in this thread other than my and mellissas posts.

Everything else? Considering the debates about Sisters Fluff have gotten to be pretty annoying.

Moderator's pro tips for users:

Users who are not interested in Witch Hunters/SoB threads should just not read them.

If users keep dragging threads off topic, the Yellow Triangle is there for you to alert moderators.

If you find the posts of a specific user annoying, yet they aren't breaking the rules by posting off topic or rudely -- in other words if you have just taken a dislike to them -- the Ignore button is your friend.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for a while.

ShumaGorath wrote:

metallifan wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Ouch 2012 or 2013?

FY APR 2011

Which translates into some time between APR 2011 and APR 2012

They stated in interviews at e3 that have been posted in this exact thread multiple times that they are aiming for a release date of Q1 2013. Makes me kinda wonder what you guys are reading in this thread other than my and mellissas posts.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Melissia wrote:How is that bad? That means they'll have ~2.5 years to perfect it.

Not even, more like 1.5-2

THQs Fiscal year ends in March, so March 31st 2012 will be the end of FY12 for THQ (they are currently in FY11) so that means that anywhere from April 1 2012 to July 1st 2012 will be Q1 FY 13 for them.

I don't see how there is any confusion as to the YEAR this game is coming out, all it takes is to google THQs Fiscal Year and anyone can see that Q1 FY13 will be beginning April 1 2012 and ending July 1st 2012. Nothing about this timeframe speaks to an "Actual Year" 2013

One of the guys interviewed at E3 (can't remember which one) said they where hoping end of 2012 for release, but admited it might slip into early 2013.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:One of the guys interviewed at E3 (can't remember which one) said they where hoping end of 2012 for release, but admited it might slip into early 2013.

Daemon Archon apparently believes he was using THQs fiscal calender, and not the traditional one. A presumption that I find highly unlikely given the informal civilian media setting for the interview.

But the world is ending before 2013! What will we do with the update?! ;P

I wish they'd put some more people on the secondary army codexes, and publish them faster.

I still think they should have waited till E3 next year to reveal it, it would have made the wait seem so much shorter. I hope it is epic in a whole new way for such an anticipated title for people like ourselves but I'm also somewhat expecting to be let down because of the hype. Either way I suppose its just nice to see WH40k come to an MMO form I just hope Vigil does it justice.

So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

Clay Williams wrote:So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

*pics*

I'm disturbed by the lack of skulls...

Man the ork is not big enough and he does not have a slugga. the marines are right on for size

well from my job, i can tell you that shooting is realtime like ratchet and clank, and not point and click like WOW.

and that things already are looking different from that trailer

And what would be your job exactly?

Clay Williams wrote:So they were pimping space marine and dark millennium pretty hard at E3. Check this out!

OMG
OMG
OMG That's pretty kewl. I'm probz gonna be even worse once I go jam in nottingham.
And the games looks kewlio. Bit peeved at only beserkers/nurgle daemons saying hello

The Dreadnote wrote:And what would be your job exactly?

3d artist, check my profile, im doing some modelling for the game, those trees by the warhound, me

Well, that's the most proof I'm likely to get over the internet. Keep the insider info coming

UltraPrime wrote:For the love of God, please can someone do something about every thread that Mel is in turning into a Sisters fluff argument.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I stopped reading any thread on bols that could have any possibility of being linked to sisters. Its getting absurd

Kilkrazy wrote:Users who are not interested in Witch Hunters/SoB threads should just not read them.

If users keep dragging threads off topic, the Yellow Triangle is there for you to alert moderators.

If you find the posts of a specific user annoying, yet they aren't breaking the rules by posting off topic or rudely -- in other words if you have just taken a dislike to them -- the Ignore button is your friend.

Deal with it, people.

The Dreadnote wrote:Well, that's the most proof I'm likely to get over the internet. Keep the insider info coming

hmm, quite a good response, usually people dont realize that people on the internetz might have jobs concurring to the topic.

well all i can say thusfar is what you saw in the early trailer here isnt what the game looks like now, the engine has progressed more to allow much more, fun goodies