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And yet again, I never said I had a problem with it but I hope it isn't just a copy of wow in the 40k universe. you can have two cupcakes that are both the same cake mix with different frosting. They may look a bit dfferent and have a slightly different taste but the core is the same.

I played wow for 4 and a half years, I just don't want to play WoW with tyranids and Tau. I'm not saying that is what it is going to be, we have next to no information. I'm a worrisome son of a bitch. Do I honestly think it is going to be a wow clone? no. Is it possible? yes. Until more is announced I can't pass a proper judgement and I'm holding out until we get more info.

WAR didn't fail because it only had 2 factions.

I imagine if ALL of the other things wrong with it had of been fixed, or nonexistent on launch, I'd probably still be playing it.

c34r34lk1ll3r, I agree in the hope that we aren't slaying bloodthirsters for purps/epics. I hope it is an epic pvp game with some pve stuff to entertain yourself with on the side. At least take solace in the fact that Darksiders was amazing.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Yes, in WoW you can jump, and yes, you seemed to have completely missed the point because that wasn't it at all. The others seemed to get it though.

I'm sorry I just didn't catch your point. Can you tell me waht it was? I'm not being snarky, I'm being genuine.

If you bought the last 10 FPS's to come out you'll find they all use generally the same control setup. Does this mean that they are all the same game or of the same quality? No, of course not. They use that setup because it works very well. The same is true of MMO's as well. These are common interfaces and they are common becuase they work well and they are simple to grasp, especially if you've played one before. Innovation just because it is a new game isn't really enough, you usually need new tech. The Power Glove on the NES was terrible, but the Wii is doing fairly well because the technology now allows for it. Until there is something more widespread and ubiquitous than a keyboard and mouse the interfaces will stay fairly similar. With touchscreen tech becoming more common and more functional it will probably be the next change but even than it won't be radical.

Hmmm, maybe this is the problem. You are saying you are worried it is a WoW clone, but WoW is itself a clone. Basically what the problem is is that you are worried that it is going to A) be an MMO, which it is or B) in essence doing what people do when they say Warhammer ripped off Warcraft. WoW is the highest userbase of an MMO but it didn't create almost any of the things it does. It just simplified or streamlined them but they were around long before WoW came out. You might as well say you are worried it is going to be a Dark Age of Camelot clone. Which would be awesome by the way.

If they had fixed the bugs in WAR that had been there since launch as well as a myriad of other things I would still be playing WAR as well. It was a great game that was ruined by rushing it out to beat Liche King. Having two overall sides wasn't really an issue. The PvE needed a bit of work but the RvR was grand fun past level 10.

As long as its not as disappointing as Star Trek Online and plays as good as it looks, i'll play it.

Ahtman wrote:
If you bought the last 10 FPS's to come out you'll find they all use generally the same control setup. Does this mean that they are all the same game or of the same quality? No, of course not. They use that setup because it works very well. The same is true of MMO's as well. These are common interfaces and they are common becuase they work well and they are simple to grasp, especially if you've played one before. Innovation just because it is a new game isn't really enough, you usually need new tech. The Power Glove on the NES was terrible, but the Wii is doing fairly well because the technology now allows for it. Until there is something more widespread and ubiquitous than a keyboard and mouse the interfaces will stay fairly similar. With touchscreen tech becoming more common and more functional it will probably be the next change but even than it won't be radical.

Current generation MMO's with interface addons are fully compatible with touchscreens, and i'm pretty sure you could use the wiimote if you wanted too.

If you want an advanced interface like that prepackaged and spoon fed to you though, that's never going to happen in the MMO market

Grundz wrote:If you want an advanced interface like that prepackaged and spoon fed to you though, that's never going to happen in the MMO market

Who are you replying to? You start like you are responding to one persons point but then finish like it is to another.

radiohazard wrote:If they stick with those 2 factions, where will Eldar fit in???

They are only in it for themselves and wouldnt ally with either faction unless they saw it as useful to them.

So lets say the Eldar join the good guys - thats 3 good guy races and only 2 bad guy races.

I'd like to see a 3rd facttion with Eldar and Tau.

Eldar can join which ever side they want. So its more a matter of what the story is that determines how they fit in. The tau are geographically (or galactic equivalent) limited only living in one sector of on the fringe of the imperium. So unless this sector boarders that, they should force them in. I personally think they should exclude any race that doesn't fit the story. I doubt that will happen.

Karon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Karon wrote:They might as well call it Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine Online

There was alot more than Space Marines going on. There was chaos cultist, enginseers, imperial guard, a freakn' titan, and orks. I gurantee they will balance out space marines; its just bad game design otherwise. Just imagine all the different sentry type weapons an enginseer can deploy. Or that IG may have access to their special weapons at a lower level.

Oh, no, I realize that very well, and I'll most likely be a Chaos Cultist, but I was just saying. The ratio from Space Marines to other races will probably be 3 to 1.

I think these game developers will be a little more reasonable than GW with bringing in chapters of space marines. They'll care more about balancing things out. I think what they'll add will be based on what "theme" or idea they want to emphasize with a given expansion. This is not to say there won't be volumes of space marine just that they'll be more purpose driven, like if psyker powers are the big thing for one expansion, Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, and Sanctioned Psykers would be the big thing.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:
Ohh and I'm not arguing that having a toolbar is bad, mmkay? I'm saying that It looks as though it has the same button set up as WoW with the same placement for your character in the upper left, which wasn't also original to WoW. I'm just wanting something different from WoW, I quit playing over 2 years ago because I didn't like the way it was going with mechanics (PvP, Raids, Class set ups and roles).

There are only so many locations to place a tool bar. Left, right, top bottom. Top left hand corner just makes sense because the western world is used to the prospect of reading top-to-bottom, left-to-right. I'll give you this, at this point there is no reason a toolbar needs to be fixed in place. It could be movable. My point is a bar with boxes that can be filled can only be done in so many ways.

Maybe they could be circular instead? Or arches... arches are 40k? Themed to your faction? At the end of the day its really all set dressing and the look doesn't matter (unless it interferes.)

Ahtman wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Yes, in WoW you can jump, and yes, you seemed to have completely missed the point because that wasn't it at all. The others seemed to get it though.

I'm sorry I just didn't catch your point. Can you tell me waht it was? I'm not being snarky, I'm being genuine.

If you bought the last 10 FPS's to come out you'll find they all use generally the same control setup. Does this mean that they are all the same game or of the same quality? No, of course not. They use that setup because it works very well. The same is true of MMO's as well. These are common interfaces and they are common becuase they work well and they are simple to grasp, especially if you've played one before. Innovation just because it is a new game isn't really enough, you usually need new tech. The Power Glove on the NES was terrible, but the Wii is doing fairly well because the technology now allows for it. Until there is something more widespread and ubiquitous than a keyboard and mouse the interfaces will stay fairly similar. With touchscreen tech becoming more common and more functional it will probably be the next change but even than it won't be radical.

Hmmm, maybe this is the problem. You are saying you are worried it is a WoW clone, but WoW is itself a clone. Basically what the problem is is that you are worried that it is going to A) be an MMO, which it is or B) in essence doing what people do when they say Warhammer ripped off Warcraft. WoW is the highest userbase of an MMO but it didn't create almost any of the things it does. It just simplified or streamlined them but they were around long before WoW came out. You might as well say you are worried it is going to be a Dark Age of Camelot clone. Which would be awesome by the way.

If they had fixed the bugs in WAR that had been there since launch as well as a myriad of other things I would still be playing WAR as well. It was a great game that was ruined by rushing it out to beat Liche King. Having two overall sides wasn't really an issue. The PvE needed a bit of work but the RvR was grand fun past level 10.

I liked DaoC. I just don't want the PvE play, which Is what I'm interested in the most, will be identical to WoW. I also don't want it to be some lvel grinding idiocy. I'm mostly focused on PvE, PvP is cool and all but I got bored with it with WoW when they switched to the arena system.

I'm glad we both know where we both stand and that this has been a healthy debate with a severe lack of asshattery.


On another note, since when did the internet become a place of hope? I thought the world was supposed to end every time a new edition/game/codex/movie/book came out.

You are worried the PvE will be similar to WoW's? Well I can understand that.

I hope that PvP is the main event, while PvE is a side thing to entertain in off hours of pvp events.

I REALLY hope the PvE isn't like WoW.

I really doubt they will make it very PvE centric, considering the IP.

I'm 100% possitive that the PvP will be original in multiple ways, the PvE I'm not so sure of.

Also, I really miss Ultima Online where you could have a character as nothing but a blacksmith or store owner. It was never my main focus but the fact that I could have my own store and generate my in game money with a location in game that was mine without having to go out and do dailies and grind would be awesome. I think that would be something they would add with an expansion or Patch.

Final Fantasy XIV will have something like that. Crafting is a job class in it and not just a skill. You set up your moogle in the city to sell your wares even when you aren't online.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I'm 100% possitive that the PvP will be original in multiple ways, the PvE I'm not so sure of.

Also, I really miss Ultima Online where you could have a character as nothing but a blacksmith or store owner. It was never my main focus but the fact that I could have my own store and generate my in game money with a location in game that was mine without having to go out and do dailies and grind would be awesome. I think that would be something they would add with an expansion or Patch.

Glad I'm not the only one who misses that. I also miss player housing, something that WoW sorely lacked.

Aramus wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:I'm 100% possitive that the Pal Fantasy XIV will have something like that. Crafting is a job class in it and not just a skill. You set up your moogle in the city to sell your wares even when you aren't online. vP will be original in multiple ways, the PvE I'm not so sure of.

Also, I really miss Ultima Online where you could have a character as nothing but a blacksmith or store owner. It was never my main focus but the fact that I could have my own store and generate my in game money with a location in game that was mine without having to go out and do dailies and grind would be awesome. I think that would be something they would add with an expansion or Patch.

Glad I'm not the only one who misses that. I also miss player housing, something that WoW sorely lacked.

My first character in Ultima was based on Rupert Avery from the Serpent War Saga books by Raymond E. Feist.

Kanluwen wrote:If you're going to bitch about factions, at least wait until they announce what the faction make-up will be.

Chaos and Orks work quite well together, and have for quite awhile.

Space Marines and Imperial Guard...well, I don't think I should have to explain that one.

I don't have to wait, we've already seen how it will turn out. And think about it... How many games of 40k are played SM vs. SM? And Factions won't let you do that.

Actually no, we haven't "already seen how it will turn out".

Because we don't know what the factions of Order/Destruction will actually contain for races.

As an aside:
The "SM v. SM" games that you end up having to play quite a bit are stupid. They only occur because of imbalances in player populations in your area.

This won't be restricted based on your immediate locale's population, nor will it be restricted on who comes to a tournament or not.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no, we haven't "already seen how it will turn out".

Because we don't know what the factions of Order/Destruction will actually contain for races.

As an aside:
The "SM v. SM" games that you end up having to play quite a bit are stupid. They only occur because of imbalances in player populations in your area.

This won't be restricted based on your immediate locale's population, nor will it be restricted on who comes to a tournament or not.

Every MMO w/ only 2 factions has the same issues, that's been established. Which races are in Order/Destruction is an irrelevant argument (Unless a race can choose it's faction regardless) as it still ends up being only 2 factions.

If imbalances occur in the TT game where SM vs. SM, don't you think that would happen in an MMO as well? Locale is not what restricts that happening, it's because of players choice.

Rymafyr wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no, we haven't "already seen how it will turn out".

Because we don't know what the factions of Order/Destruction will actually contain for races.

As an aside:
The "SM v. SM" games that you end up having to play quite a bit are stupid. They only occur because of imbalances in player populations in your area.

This won't be restricted based on your immediate locale's population, nor will it be restricted on who comes to a tournament or not.

Every MMO w/ only 2 factions has the same issues, that's been established. Which races are in Order/Destruction is an irrelevant argument (Unless a race can choose it's faction regardless) as it still ends up being only 2 factions.

Actually, the problem with MMOs with 2 factions crops up, more often than not, when you have classes exclusive to that faction. Alliance for a long time outnumbered Horde heavily in WoW, simply in Paladin population. Provided there's no class that would appeal too much to players, you won't see a big problem.

If imbalances occur in the TT game where SM vs. SM, don't you think that would happen in an MMO as well? Locale is not what restricts that happening, it's because of players choice.

There's not going to be "counts-as" here. Which, whaddyaknow, is a hefty part of the Marine populations.

Add in the fact that we most likely will not be seeing Chapters as their own subfactions, and it cuts down on a lot of the "SM v. SM" styled matches, now doesn't it?

Somehow you've entirely missed my point, I personally wouldn't want to cut down on the Sm v Sm matches as an MMO should have a fully open ended PvP system. Not that I ever play 'em as they're about as exciting as watching paint dry. And thanks for proving my point as to why factions are worthless in an MMO when classes are exclusive to a faction.

What's up w/ the 'counts-as' point you're trying to make? I sure didn't say anything regarding it.

Rymafyr wrote:Somehow you've entirely missed my point, I personally wouldn't want to cut down on the Sm v Sm matches as an MMO should have a fully open ended PvP system. Not that I ever play 'em as they're about as exciting as watching paint dry. And thanks for proving my point as to why factions are worthless in an MMO when classes are exclusive to a faction.

Not really, not when you're dealing with a universe where there are clearly defined factions such as "The Imperium of Man" and "The Legions of Chaos", mate. Plus, "open-ended PvP" was a dead end.

What's up w/ the 'counts-as' point you're trying to make? I sure didn't say anything regarding it.

Then you've not looked around enough. A large number of people are now using the Loyalist Codexes(Space Marine, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) to represent non-SM armies. Things like Night Lords represented by a Codex:Blood Angels force painted blackish-blue,etc are what I'm talking about. Hell, there's a guy who uses the DA Codex to represent an Ork "Deffwing" force.

That severely skews the match make-ups of what you dub "SM v. SM", as does again the fact that there's 4 "Loyalist" Marine Codexes that can see the field at any given time.

Karon wrote:There are certain things that form a foundation for an MMO, no matter what kind it is. That's the ability to jump, have a hotbar, a healthbar, etc.

Don't forget the /dance emote

BTW I really enjoyed playing WAR. Just walking through the Warhammer World was tremendous. The art developed for the game is fantastic.

Kanluwen wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Somehow you've entirely missed my point, I personally wouldn't want to cut down on the Sm v Sm matches as an MMO should have a fully open ended PvP system. Not that I ever play 'em as they're about as exciting as watching paint dry. And thanks for proving my point as to why factions are worthless in an MMO when classes are exclusive to a faction.

Not really, not when you're dealing with a universe where there are clearly defined factions such as "The Imperium of Man" and "The Legions of Chaos", mate. Plus, "open-ended PvP" was a dead end.

What's up w/ the 'counts-as' point you're trying to make? I sure didn't say anything regarding it.

Then you've not looked around enough. A large number of people are now using the Loyalist Codexes(Space Marine, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves) to represent non-SM armies. Things like Night Lords represented by a Codex:Blood Angels force painted blackish-blue,etc are what I'm talking about. Hell, there's a guy who uses the DA Codex to represent an Ork "Deffwing" force.

That severely skews the match make-ups of what you dub "SM v. SM", as does again the fact that there's 4 "Loyalist" Marine Codexes that can see the field at any given time.

Ya, that's just it...the races in 40k generally would not make up a faction together; you could piece together something but the fluff has never supported it. Also, it sorta flies against the whole, 'there is only war' motif of 40k. So again, factions for a 40k MMO means failure, because with factions you can not pvp races of the same faction. Oh, and I'm not your 'mate', and you're not Australian.

I am loving the look of the game so far. It's between WoW and Darksiders, Vigil's other fantastically designed game. The characters in the preview trailer and the artwork on the site have a vague "Joe Maduriera" feel that will visually set this game apart from the 40k tabletop game and other 40k video games out there. I knew Joe wouldn't let me down in his role in art direction.

I don't understand the flap about factions. What are Vigil supposed to do? Have each 'race' be a faction in and of itself? All you'd get is PvP chaos, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria! A couple of the factions would get too large to fight against, and force out any other faction. Then you'd just have a two faction game anyway.

The website seems to be setting up a story about the part of the universe that the game takes place in. Within that story, the orks and chaos beakies have a loose alliance. It will likely be something similar with the Eldar and the Imperium, an alliance of necessity or convenience. BAM your fluff justification is there and that's the way this game works.

The fluff for DMO is going to be somewhat different from what we know - it's a MMO game, not a tabletop army wargame. It has to be. They play differently. Vigil is making their own little section of the 40k universe to play in, so they can make things work the best for both their story, their game, and the overall feel of the 40k universe in general.

I'm jazzed to see more of this game. If it plays like WoW, that's fine with me. If it's 'your-character-as-squad' then so much the better.

On the very edge of the galaxy lies the Sargos Sector. For centuries it was rendered uninhabitable and isolated by volatile Warp Storms. Even now, deep within the sector the very fabric of reality is unraveling. Only the ancient Sentinel Devices hold the Warp at bay.

But the ravages of time and meddling of humanity have weakened the Sentinel Devices-and now, the battle for these lost worlds is at hand. Drawn to the conflict, the great races of the galaxy descend upon the Sargos Sector, seeking to preserve reality-or to tear it asunder.

Side with the forces of Order, or the vile hosts of Destruction, in a war that will unlock ancient secrets, reveal dark purposes, and determine the fate of the Sargos Sector. For in this dark millennium, there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter.

---------------

Haha! They're doing the thing that Warhammer Online did, Order and Destruction. So it looks like Imperium and Eldar VS Chaos and Orks.

That's pretty dumb, IMO.

What would you prefer that they do, Karon?

Yeah, Karon? When a games constrained to only having two sides, there are only so many ways to split the factions and the alliances.

Rymafyr wrote:Ya, that's just it...the races in 40k generally would not make up a faction together; you could piece together something but the fluff has never supported it. Also, it sorta flies against the whole, 'there is only war' motif of 40k. So again, factions for a 40k MMO means failure, because with factions you can not pvp races of the same faction.

Well you have to think of it not as a "faction" in a permanent way but as the temporary cooperation between groups. I understand what you're saying, and I generally agree. It just becomes a bit too lopsided in these sorts of games and overly complicated otherwise. In a game that could get away with being more complicated, marines could kill guard on suspicion of being traitors, marines and guard could go traitor on a whim, eldar would do whatever they feel like. That would be interesting but more than a bit complicated.

Exactly. I'd happily bet that anyone complaining about the "faction" set up now would also be complaining about the lack of the same in the alternate circumstance.

We're getting a 40K MMO. Be happy about it or else don't buy it. It's not like THQ is grabbing you by your hair and jamming the game down your throat while picking your pockets for cash. The factions are just there to add a balance. If that balance wasn't present, people would be crying about how the lack of factions made the game too hard unless you were normal (or horny) marines.

Oh, no no. You take me all wrong. I wasn't saying because it was only two factions, I was saying because they called it "Order and Destruction" LOL, which is the same thing WAR call's their two factions.

Pretty lazy of them to coin it so simple. Eldar are hardly orderly, you could say the same for the Imperium.

Karon wrote:Oh, no no. You take me all wrong. I wasn't saying because it was only two factions, I was saying because they called it "Order and Destruction" LOL, which is the same thing WAR call's their two factions.

Pretty lazy of them to coin it so simple. Eldar are hardly orderly, you could say the same for the Imperium.

Blame GW. That's what they called them in the Storm of Chaos Online Campaign years before.

So where do squats fit in