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Shrike325 wrote:

Klawz wrote:Pyrovores have a use. Deepstrike them in a spod and flame the enemy. NEVER TAKE A PYROVORE WITHOUT A SPOD!

So... you're saying that making a Pyrovore cost 135 points to get a flame template off... is worth it?

Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

But i doess have a use. and I believe it would be only 85 points.

deamonhosts..... or WH repenta. by far the worst two units

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:deamonhosts..... or WH repenta. by far the worst two units

Daemonhosts have their moments, and can be pretty good depending on what powers you roll, but the reason no-one takes them is because they deny you the ability to use Grey Knights.

Klawz wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Klawz wrote:Just saying it isn't the worst unit.

I think many (like myself) would agree that it definatly is not the WORST unit, but you should also agree that it is definately a contender

But i doess have a use. and I believe it would be only 85 points.

Yes it is, my mistake, read "see page 90 for points cost" as "costs 90 points"... still utter crap

Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

Samus_aran115 wrote:The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

that gets major lolz

Samus_aran115 is punny.


Back on topic, I do believe that shadowsun is pretty darn bad. She has 2 melta guns and here gear protects her from long range shots.

What about commander farsight? his special benefits are meh, and if you take him there are many severe limits on what you can take in your army.

micahaphone wrote:

What about commander farsight? his special benefits are meh, and if you take him there are many severe limits on what you can take in your army.

And then you realise you can fit roughtly 20 Crisis suits into a single list and dakka the hell out of someone.

samk99 wrote:Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

Your friend is wrong and knows jack about the unit. See our discussion earlier in this thread about scouts and how much they WIN.

Melissia wrote:

samk99 wrote:Hi Valk im new here your freind indiana1000 told me all about you. Anyway the most usless unit imo is space marine scouts with shotguns as shotguns are about as useful as lasguns

Your friend is wrong and knows jack about the unit. See our discussion earlier in this thread about scouts and how much they WIN.

Lol,I was there.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

the_ferrett wrote:DAR, both Zogwort and Big gunz certainly are not the worst

Thats more of "There are not that many bad HQs and Heavy Support options in w40k" as much as "Zoggy and Big gunz suck"

No doubt, they are phenominal compared to other things on the Worst list, but IMO Zogwort is one of the worst HQ choices(while still not one of the worst UNITS) to grace a codex.

It goes like this

Space Pope <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Zogwort << Everything else

Big guns are relatively weak compared to other HS options in 40k (I.E Land Raiders, Hammerheads, Daemon Princes, Defilers, etc)

Vespids would have *possibly* made the cut, but honestly, if we were gonna list all the bad FA choices, we would need a separate thread entirely.

at 23pts for a BS3 str 8 shot or a str 4 small blast template with a re-roll to hit once per game what are you moaning about? A single kannon costs 20pts. Said 20pts might happily blow up a tank of av13 or less worth 5 or even 10 times its pts. sure there are better ork heavy choices but if you run a horde army than big gunz are a respectable way to get some anti-tank shooting in there.

As for Zoggy? He's not brilliant (from experience) but that squig power is hilarious and the potential ability to shut down abaddon, calgar, eldrad, etc is very useful. Plus he has up to 9 wounding on a 2+ power weapon attacks in cc. He's not even the worst HQ in the ork codex, that would be Wazzdakka. His only use is for the all bike army because looked at purely for his own rules he sucks massive squig nuts. And neither is as bad as the ethereal.

I have too say mandrakes are pretty usefull three turns of freemovement and fleeting with out being shot at.... then there +2 cover modifiler and a group of 10 for 150 points with 30 attacks on the charge is nuthing too call worst or bad to laught at... yeah there hitting on 3 and wounding on 5 but still there great for keeping your emeny guessing were there going too pop in at.

TROOPS WISE I like rippers ( i have ripper army i play with and its fun too see me bring out 90 ripper swarms bases, and tell my emeny dont attack the hq...( since he make ripper swarms from the wounds...) they get a +2 cover bonus too being small and sleathy which helps out and being fearless little bas' wichs are good too. Thats my Opinion..

Melissia wrote:Underpowered != worthless/useless.



Dominions are very underpowered (or rather, overpriced), but they aren't worthless/useless. Same with Celestians to an extent (they'd be just fine if they had BP+CCW).

Oh we'll be discounting repentia then.

Underpowered, overcosted and not faithful. I agree. They sure do suck.

Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use. Now you can shut up.

StarGate wrote:I have too say mandrakes are pretty usefull three turns of freemovement and fleeting with out being shot at.... then there +2 cover modifiler and a group of 10 for 150 points with 30 attacks on the charge is nuthing too call worst or bad to laught at... yeah there hitting on 3 and wounding on 5 but still there great for keeping your emeny guessing were there going too pop in at.

Most enemies don't care where they are going to pop out, nothing a single flamer shot cant handle (and if you happen to have 2, and or a dread, onoes mandrakes!).

150 points for 30 attacks on the charge that are hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s, and allowing 3+ armor saves

for 10 more points....

Bloodletters are hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, not allowing armor saves and have 5+ invuls instead of armor. and oh yeah, as for "Hidden Deployment" being a good thing, if your opponent surrounds your markers he can either

A Force you to deploy in a less then desirable area

or

B Surround all three and force the squad to die before hitting the table.

Mandrakes are absolutely terrible.

The only use they COULD serve is objective contesting (which assumes game end on turn 3) but due to the above, that objective isn't even possible.

OK, I might not be all that good when determining the usefulness of a unit, but what the heck is wrong with hellions?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use.

No they won't, because they'll never get there.

Melissia wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Useless? Well they'll munch a tank in cc. Hey I found a use.

No they won't, because they'll never get there.

what if the Land Raider Deeps strikes!!!!!!!

(Or you Creed-Flank them...)

and Luke, Hellions are bad due to their overcost and inability to effectively do ANYTHING on the board.

The most Ironic thing about the Dark Eldar (the "Fastest army in the universe") is how terrible their fast attack choices are (with Reavers being a slight exception)

Heres how you can tell if one unit is useless

Can another unit do everything that unit can do for ~Equal or even less then their point cost and do a Much better job at it?

When discussing Hellions, the answer is HELL YES

When discussing Repentia, the answer is, Yes there are better infantry killers, Yes there are better IC hunters, yes there are better Tank killers, but NO there is nothing better that can do all three.

Sigh. I just realized that bikes are bad unless that's your army. Hence the reason attack bikes are terrible. They barely fit in a bike army.

Would you deep strike or outflank a tank within striking distance of an anti-tank unit without knowing you could destroy it quickly?

Ten celestians with twin meltaguns and an eviscerator in a rhino are better in CC, better at anti-tank, and better at anti-infantry than ten repentia. They also cost the same using the IA rhino rules. And they're more survivable and flexible.

My stab at this

HQ: Aun Va so much that no other contender is worth looking at.

Elites:

the contenders

Pyrovore - sucks in cc, hurts you if he gets shot and goes boom, has a heavy flamer (because nids need anti-troop guns of course) and takes up an elite slot that competes with stuff like the deathleaper, hive guard, ymgarls, the doom, zoes, venomthropes, etc all of which are amazing. I'm going to just chalk him up to better stuff in the same codex and no useful role though.

Repentia - easy to kill, not really good at cc which is they're job and hard to control. Expensive. Against an average unit they'll probably win cc though and they maul vehicles. not as good as seraphs so again I'm rating them as better stuff in the same codex and no useful role.

Death Cult Assassins - easy KP's but cheap reasonable scouting/infiltrating cc power. Basically if they fix the kp issue they'd be fine.

Daemonhost - random, hard to control, can be good or awful on a turn by turn basis and trump card, NO GK's! Making him the only choice that actively hurts your army in a direct way. Although I don't know if it counts because its kind of a theme thing. Its not so much that he denies GK's as that taking him signifies you playing a radical force.

Techmarines - what are these for? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

Mandrakes - hiding for 3 turns and then can't kill anything when they do show up. I guess they can contest?

The decapitator - can't be deployed in some missions, weaponry which is worse than his non-special equivalent and no useful psychic powers.

Winner: The decapitator.

Troops
The contenders

Nurglings - non scoring troops but at least they're fearless with an invulnerable save

Rippers - non scoring troops which are sometimes fearless and sometimes eat each other and have no invulnerable save. and are crap at cc....in an army with amazing and cheap troops to boot.

Winner: Rippers.

and however said Grots deserves a smack. Grots are amazing. They've won me more games than any other unit.

Fast Attack:
Contenders - my god there are a lot of them

Chaos Spawn - uncontrollable, average in cc but at least they're quite cheap, have invulnerables and you can take a lot of them. Its not like there is anything else that jumps out at you from the Chaos FA section.

Swooping Hawks - of the various possible roles these could fill something else in the eldar codex does it better. Anti-troop? Practically everything else. Anti-tank assault? Scorps, fire dragons, wraithguard and spiders all do it better. Contesting on the last turn? Practically the whole army does that.

Skyslasher swarms - hey its flying rippers. At least they're not sucking up troop slots but they still can't kill anything, might eat themselves and aren't always fearless.

Hellions - decent(ish) in cc but expensive as hell. Their rapid fire gun is laughable but is obviously a rules hangover. These guys suck but they haven't always...unlike skyslashers.

Teleporting GK's - we are GK's that can teleport...but then lose the ability to score. Nobody has ever taken us ever.

Vanguard - how much?

Winner: Skyslashers.

Heavy Support
Contenders

Sniper Drones - not necesarily bad at first glance but hugely overcosted and competing with hammerheads and broadsides.

Biovore - because nids need more anti-troop weapons.

Orbital Bombardment - it can't be stopped which is a plus but you need your enemy to go to the correct piece of terrain and be the correct type of enemy. Plus it is wildly inaccurate and frankly none of the options are all that killy anyway.

Zzzap guns - not big gunz as a whole just the zzzap option. 2d6 strength means that 2/3 of the time it is less strong than the CHEAPER kannon. you pay more pts to make your gun worse!

Scourges - jump packs and heavy weapons? Neither of these are bad but they mesh weirdly.

Leman Russ Punisher - more pts to be worse than the exterminator. I guess it does get better armour.

Winner: Zzzap guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Sigh. I just realized that bikes are bad unless that's your army. Hence the reason attack bikes are terrible. They barely fit in a bike army.

Attack bikes aren't bad. They do the same job as speeders, fast tank hunting with a cheap disposable unit or mobile anti-infantry firepower. Speeders edge them out now they can all take 2 weapons but if you want just a cheap single weapon speeder the attack bike is comparable.

But yeah bikes are almost universally bad. middling cc power, middling anti-infantry shooting, speed with no edge and tough but pricy with no great save. The only exceptions are

- if they're troops. The addition of scoring suddenly means a fast, tough, multi-purpose unit is a good thing not a waste of pts
- if you're an ork. Because getting any save is great let alone a 4+ and a 4++ and a toughness boost, and the speed, and a short ranged twin-linked big shoota. rk bikers are boss
- reavers, because they can spam spec weps and go tank hunting

Samus_aran115 wrote:The degrees kelvin. Just use Celsius!

This is wrong, it should be Farenheit

I seriously dont get the point of Goff Rockers, seriously.

Rippers - non scoring troops which are sometimes fearless and sometimes eat each other and have no invulnerable save. and are crap at cc....in an army with amazing and cheap troops to boot.

Winner: Rippers.

So statistically 9 rippers with spinefists can land 20 hits and if its GEQ, then that's ten dead per turn. If you play them right you are going to get cover. If you get to charge the same said GEQ unit, then you have 22.5 hits on avg. which brings down to 11.25 wounds, call it 11 at AP5. Then maybe a 5 or 6+ save, they might save 3 and drop another 8. So that's probably 20 models gone. The great thing is that this unit would be 150 points and will more than often be overlooked (amazed that they made it to this list). I've had rippers drop SoB, orks, eldar, and especially guard. I think they offer a unique way to surprise your opponent and give him an unexpected as kicking. Even with just the results from above, they could make their points back in one, maybe 2 turns.

Another thought, if people are wasting shots on rippers, then they aren't shooting other stuff which is just as good (better in most cases I agree). I'm not saying rippers are the best troop choice, but to say they are even on the list of the worst is way too harsh. If played well and not set out in the open and expected to play like a SM tac squad then they can be great. A few of the units that I've seen on this list are that way, I think GW should release a guard and ork box set with their next rules set so people realize how bad ass MEQ's really are. They are very forgiving tactically and I think it shows in this thread, at least in a few cases. Though I do agree the pope sucks.

@bravelybravesirrobin

...

That list is just plain wrong.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:@bravelybravesirrobin

...

That list is just plain wrong.

HQ: Aun'Va

Elites: Decapitators

Troops: Rippers

FA: Sky Slashers

Heavy: Zzzaps.


What specifically do you object to?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:My stab at this

Techmarines - what are these for? Anyone, anyone? Bueller?

I'm actually glad you included these guys.

I can actually see a few uses for the C:SM version, but the Blood Angel and Space Wolf Versions have their own problems, which could be solved by simply giving them the IC special rule, and allowing all Techmarines to repair while embarked.

Melissia might get a break, the new witch hunters (and daemon hunters) codex is up on the GW site.

vodo40k wrote:Melissia might get a break, the new witch hunters (and daemon hunters) codex is up on the GW site.

Nothing new about it, it's just free now with no changes made to it.