camboyaz wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.

Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2.
Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/

Asherian Command wrote:

Ketara wrote:Just to chip in on a point I just read, internet memes aside, Thrawn > Creed.

Seriously. Thrawn is the ultimate commander in terms of strategy.

So he beats the Art of War writer and Hannibal and Caesar? In History sense how good is he?

Command style
Thrawn was considered a true warrior by those who served under him. If a battle Thrawn planned could not be won, Thrawn preferred not to waste troops and equipment in futile displays of power; he would withdraw and adjust his plans. He also encouraged Captain Gilad Pellaeon to voice his ideas, because, unlike many egotistical Imperial commanders, Thrawn could accept valid ideas even if they were not his own. Thrawn was not concerned with his own personal glory, only with winning the fight against the New Republic (which he refused to acknowledge as such, instead constantly referring to it as "the Rebellion"). It was later postulated that Thrawn did not support the Empire per se, but rather wanted to establish order in the known galaxy in preparation to combat as-yet unknown threats he had discovered during his time in the Outer Rim (probably early scouts of the Yuuzhan Vong).

Thrawn was more tolerant of the failures of those under his command than other Imperial officials, who were known for their lethal reaction to minor failures. Unlike Darth Vader in particular, Thrawn would not regularly terminate individuals under his command for "errors." However, he did order the execution of the commander of a conscripted crewman responsible for operating the tractor beams when Luke Skywalker escaped a trap he set, but only because the crew member had not trained the conscript because he considered him beneath regular imperial troops. Later, when Skywalker escaped a similar trap, the man running the tractor beams had tried an innovative solution in an attempt to capture him. Instead of having the man killed for failing to do so, Thrawn recognized the crewman's initiative by promoting him to Lieutenant. This attitude drove those that served him to both highly respect and fiercely stand by Thrawn.
Ironically, Thrawn was also personally responsible for one of the greatest setbacks to the Imperial cause. His ruthless persecution of smuggler Talon Karrde and estrangement of former Emperor's Hand Mara Jade led directly to her decision to aid the Rebel Alliance. Mara's support proved decisive in the campaign to destroy the Empire's cloning facilities at Mt. Tantiss: in the final confrontation with insane Jedi Master Joruus C'Baoth, she landed the killing blow.

Thrawn is known for a supremely unique command style. He would view the native art of a given species or planet to understand them better as a race or planet, and so too, gain insight into their military style. He believed the study of this art would somehow give him an advantage in battle, since it provided him with information on the psyche of his opponents and informed him of their psychological blind spots. Examples include the invasion of Ukio, where he determined that the defenders had a strong superstitious fear of the unknown and the unexplained. Therefore, his attack with cloaked vessels frightened them into submission when a more adventurous people might have continued to resist. His immediate subordinate, Pellaeon, voices the opinion that Thrawn's analysis of art was merely a cover for his true military analyses, which he would want to keep secret to stymie enemy spies. He was known as one of the most brilliant military commanders in the Star Wars universe and was superior to even geniuses such as General Garm Bel Iblis who only later joined the New Republic due to personal issues with the Rebel Alliance's leader Mon Mothma, and Admiral Ackbar, who led the Rebellion to victory in many crucial battles.

Unlike the Emperor, Thrawn preferred to use existing technologies in novel ways rather than spend billions of credits on super weapons that might or might not have worked (like the Death Star, Eye of Palpatine or even the Darksaber). Thrawn turned medium-sized capital ships like Carrack cruisers and Victory-class Star Destroyers into formidable weapons. Unlike many prominent imperial commanders, he had no Super-Star Destroyer under his command.

Ketara wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Ketara wrote:Just to chip in on a point I just read, internet memes aside, Thrawn > Creed.

Seriously. Thrawn is the ultimate commander in terms of strategy.

So he beats the Art of War writer and Hannibal and Caesar? In History sense how good is he?

He is a genius that makes Creed look like a teenager with ADHD. If I recall, he defeated something like 5 enemy cruisers with only one in his first ever space encounter. He can predict what an enemy space admiral is going to do based on their racial makeup. He innovated new strategies and technologies, and despite being vastly numerically outnumbered by the New Republic, easily succeeded in pushing them back. He always manages to attack the enemies critical spot, be it in a tactical sense, or a strategical one. He is in short, a grade A, certified, bona fide genius.

Creed was an excellent field commander, and succeeded in running a war damn well in a single system. Thrawn did what he did on a galactic scale, and did it better.

Ketara wrote:I just edited a description into my last post.

And possibly Macharias would be on his level. At the very least though, Thrawn would be his equal.

Asherian Command wrote:

Ketara wrote:I just edited a description into my last post.

And possibly Macharias would be on his level. At the very least though, Thrawn would be his equal.

Really Damn he is awesome. I love Macharias. He has to be my most favorite general of all time. I want his model :(

Ketara wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Ketara wrote:I just edited a description into my last post.

And possibly Macharias would be on his level. At the very least though, Thrawn would be his equal.

Really Damn he is awesome. I love Macharias. He has to be my most favorite general of all time. I want his model :(

Unfortunately, Thrawn kind of got killed by his bodyguard in the end, in the middle of a crucial space battle. The Imperials realised that without his genius, they didn't stand a hope in hell, and retreated.

ChrisWWII wrote:I know all about that site. And I'm not saying an Imperial Cruiser isn't comparable to a SSD....it's between a regular ISD and a SSD. But a full on Imperial Battleship? That could take on a SSD, especially given that the Imperial FLeet will probably out number the GE's fleet.

Not to mention there's only 1 Death Star at a time. There were never 2 at any point. Also, you have to assume the Death Star GETS to Terra, even though the GE has no accurate maps of Imperial space as far as hyperspace goes. But a massed Imperial fleet, especially combined with the ridiculous defenses in the Sol system would probably be enough to cripple, if not outright destroy the Death Star. The Imperials are going to hesitate to use everything they can....virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes.

Remember, the IoM has taken down Death Star sized craft before. I do believe it was a Necron construct called the World Engine, containing an entire planets worth of Necron warriors. If the Imperium could take that out, why couldn't they take down the Death Star?

Battleship

Battleships are huge ships, with colossal amounts of weapons and shields, and usually serve as the flagship for the Admiral of the Fleet, though this is not always necessarily the case. Although very powerful, battleships are very slow to maneuver and cannot react quickly to enemies that rapidly change course. The three main classes are the Emperor (which can carry an immense amount of attack craft in addition to its normal, incredibly powerful weaponry),the Victory (renowned for its heavy lance batteries) and the Retribution (which is noted for its powerful broadside firepower and its very large amount of torpedo tubes). There are other more uncommon Battleships, such as the older Apocalypse and Oberon classes. Other Segmentum battlefleets may rely on yet other classes, but the Emperor and more recent Retribution are by far the most common in the Imperial Navy. Imperial battleships can have crews of anywhere between 25,000 to 3,000,000 or more depending on sources, including large numbers of Imperial Navy armsmen to defend against enemy boarding assaults. Battleships can be up to 8 kilometres from prow to stern and displace billions of tons. Because they represent such a vast expenditure of resources and require a fairly advanced technical base, these are typically constructed only in the largest shipyards above the major Adeptus Mechanicus forge worlds. These vessels are precious assets and are carefully husbanded, usually employed in only larger fleet formations.
Grand Cruiser

Grand cruisers are significantly smaller than battleships, yet distinctly larger than cruisers. These vessels are usually very old in design and do not incorporate many of the features that are typical in current Imperial Navy vessels, like the armoured prow, and are not entirely compatible with current navy tactical doctrine. Due to this, many are retired from active duty, but are still used by reserve fleets. The Avenger, with its powerful broadside firepower, is one such example. There are also some modernized versions of grand cruisers in service, but since these are much larger and more heavily-armed than their predecessors, they are more often classed as battleships. These kinds of vessels are usually purpose-built or modified from battlecruiser hulls and are not commonly encountered in the Imperial Navy.
Cruiser

Cruisers make up the majority of a fleet. Though not as powerful as a battleship, cruisers are much faster and can still deliver a deadly blow. There are multiple classes of cruiser, most based on the same general hull design but incorporating different combinations of broadside batteries, lance turrets and starfighter hangars. Examples include the all-round, ubiquitous Lunar class, the Gothic with its powerful lances and the Dictator starfighter and attack craft carrier. Cruisers can carry a crew complement of anywhere between 1,000-25,000 and (including Imperial Navy armsmen and military police squads), depending on sources. While cruisers are still particularly complex, it is not uncommon for them to be constructed on smaller forge worlds or any civilized world that has a shipyard suitable for constructing vessels of their size. Of particular note was the Lunar cruiser Lord Daros, constructed in orbit above the feral world of Unloth in eleven years by relying on the forced labor of most of that planet’s population for materials.

A note on Imperial ship classes – while naval warships can be defined along a fairly limited number of classes based on weapon configurations approved by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the form these vessels takes varies widely throughout the Imperium. For example, a Lunar class constructed above Cypra Mundi in Segmentum Obscuras may bear little resemblance to a Lunar class constructed above Kar Durniash in Ultima Segmentum and even less so to a Lunar class, constructed among the vast shipyards of Mars. Nonetheless, they will all have roughly the same operating characteristics and weapon configuration, and thus can be easily serviced by any orbital facility throughout Imperial space.

Note there are also classes of Battlecruisers. Although based on a hull-design that is similar to the regular cruisers, these ships are generally somewhat larger and more heavily armed, incorporating more advanced power distribution systems capable of supporting battleship-grade weaponry in a cruiser hull. A notable example is the Mars class Battlecruiser, with its fighter bays, broadside batteries, dorsal lance turrets and an immense, prow-mounted Nova Cannon capable of attacking targets at extremely long range.

A subset of the cruiser category are the Light Cruisers. These ships fall in size between cruisers and escorts, mixing the firepower and durability of the former with the speed and manoeuvrability of the latter. The Dauntless is a very common light cruiser class in the Imperial Navy. Extremely self-sufficient, it is fast and has enough firepower to be a threat to both escorts and capital ships. There are other classes in common use in the Imperial Navy, most notably the Endeavour class, which serves in varied forms and hull types throughout the Imperium. Light cruisers are a fairly common ship class, for they are relatively simple to construct for being a capital ship, and they are uniquely suited for reconnaissance patrols and for making a presence where their speed and maneuverability are an advantage, and where having a larger number of smaller hulls allows the Navy to monitor a wider area of space.
Ironclad

Ironclads, much like their contemporary counterparts, are vast 8-kilometres vessels which lack the void shielding of their counterparts in favour of meters of adamantium plate armour. These ships, built before the advent of void-screen technology, have since been phased out of production, for the main part, to be replaced by more modern designs. However, those remaining in service have been recommissioned for a variety of purposes; various pattern ironclads may be retrofitted with gargantuan, ship-, station- and even planet-killer cannon running the entire length of the ship's keel, linked directly to the stern fusion reactors; others may simply be braced and reinforced for the purpose of ramming into - and through - enemy vessels. These ships are rare in the Imperial Navy, due to their archaic design and the lack of facilities still capable of repairing, let alone producing them.
Escort ship

Escort ships are the smallest type of ship in the Imperial Navy fleets, found in two distinct sub-classes. The larger of the two are Frigates, which are better armed and more heavily armoured. Destroyers are generally smaller, but they are by far the fastest and most maneuverable interstellar warships employed by the Imperial Navy. They are usually organised in squadrons of 2 to 6 vessels and will always operate as a group. The main task of the escort ships is to serve as a screen for capital ships against enemy torpedoes and attack crafts so that they can get into position more quickly and safely. They are also employed behind the gun line to finish off enemy cruisers that have been damaged so that the larger vessels can concentrate on the most important threats in an enemy formation. Most escort classes specialise in a certain role, such as the Cobra class torpedo boat destroyers or the Firestorm class frigate with its armour-piercing prow-mounted Lance. Escort ships are normally not more than 1.5 kilometres in length, with destroyers generally being only 750 metres to 2 kilometres from prow to stern.

camboyaz wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.

Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2.
Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/

Grey Templar wrote:

camboyaz wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Assuming it GETS through the ridiciulous number of orbital defenses Terra has. Seriously. Terra's defenses make Cadia look like a wooden fence.

Guys, come on, the average IoM Crusier isn't even as big as a Super Star Destroyer, it's a little bigger than a regular one. And the Death Star can fit lik 40 Super Star Destroyers inside. I don't think they can tackle the Death Star. let alone 2.
Soure for size: http://www.merzo.net/

according to your link a Super Star Destroyer is approx 19 kilometers long. twice as big as the Retribution class Battle Cruiser further down. pretty big, but does it really matter?

the problem is that the Empire built less then a handfull of Superstar Destroyers. Retribution class battleships certaintly arn't common, but there are hundreds of them. 2-3 of them plus a support fleet would outmaneuver the bulky SSD quite easily if they didn't just stay back and pelt it with torpedos.

a Normal Star Destroyer is shown being roughly the same size as a Cobra class escort. the IoM probably has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Cobras. and the Galactic Empire relys on these to be their main line ships?

when you consider that Cobra sized ships get pulverized constantly in the 40k fluff while Star Destoyers can last quite a bit of punishment in the Star Wars universe. this suggests that the Weapons of the 40k universe are massivly more powerful then Star Wars.



pointing out that Star Wars has bigger ships really doesn't help Star Wars. it's a case of Bismark syndrome. the Bismark was made to be the terror of the oceans, bigger and better then any other battleship of its time and it proved it by sinking the HMS Hood with all hands. but it was completely destroyed because of what? a little WW1 era torpedo plane disabled its rudder and the Bismark got curb stomped by the royal navy who had more ships of medium size.


the Death Star isn't a huge deal either. the IoM would get a large fleet together to hunt it down and capture it. Assassins could easily infiltrate it and provide the location and disable its hyperdrive. then the IoM just has to launch a boarding party of Space marines and Stormtroopers. the IoM then has control while the Mechanicus study it for tech. or an assassin could just leave a bomb with some lifeater virus inside.

we will not entertain the possability of 2 Death Stars at once. there never were 2 at once so it's out, but even if we did allow it it really wouldn't make any difference.

Exark wrote:Just joining in on this, being a "star wars fanboy" myself and 40k player. I personally put it as follows:

1) Star Wars
2) 40k
3) Star Trek

Pretty much in SW, technology is considerably more reliable and advanced (in my view at least) than in the 40k universe. An example is the swifter travel (where you can get from one side to the other in a matter of days pretty much). I realize that has been beaten to death.

Meanwhile i wish to drop the three following bombs which i do not think have been mentioned

First, enter the Sovereign Class Super Star Destroyer
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sovereign-class_Super_Star_Destroyer
Effectively, this baby can take on an entire fleet, and crush planets, thanks to its co-ax superlaser (watered down,could only crack a surface)

Second, the Eclipse Class
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse-class_Super_Star_Destroyer
A watered down sovereign effectively (keep in mind that both of this carry near 1000 ships, however to the best of my knowledge, the Executor class may carry more firepower, as a specific weapons setup has never been determined for it IIRC)

Third, the nail in the coffin effectively:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Suncrusher
The Sun Crusher, this thing is the most lethal thing in the SW galaxy (GCW era, not Legacy, i'm pretty sure the new stuff can do more damage than this). Basically, it carries resonance torpedos. What happens is you fire one of these buggers into a sun, and the sun goes boom. So so much for your "impossible to destroy" Forgeworlds. Secondly, the sun crusher is equipped with quantum crystalline armor, which is impenetrable (in the Jedi Academy trilogy, this thing wrecked an Imperial Class Star Destroyer just by ramming through it's bridge, it also withstood a direct hit from the prototype death star's superlaser, bear in mind though, that the DS and DS II lasers were more powerful i believe). Oh, and it survived a supernova, now don't see Imperial (40k) vessels doing that now huh? (I laugh at your holo fields Eldar,haha). It was only destroyed when it was sent through a black hole in the Maw. Thus, this thing pops up in Sol, and fires off a resonance torpedo, two minutes later (or somthing like that) and bye bye Imperium, there goes the heart of the Imperium, because of one starfighter sized ship.

Now also bear in mind, that these vessels were few in number (the sun crusher was just one ship), however, they could be built in mass numbers (due to the fact that as i recall reading somewhere, it takes the Imperium CONSIDERABLY longer to build warships, so the SW universe factions could simply out produce the Imperium), the Sun Crusher, would be unlikely to be rebuilt, as it's designer, Qwi Xux, would not part with the details of it's construction.

Just some thoughts

EDIT: Edited for clarity and grammar, hopefully

Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.

Grey Templar wrote:

Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.

This

personally i think it was made up purely because SW fanboyz needed something to compete with all the other sci-fi universes out there and they needed something more dangerous then a Deathstar because otherwise it would be lame.

Star Wars fanfic is simply disgusting in the crazy stuff they come up with.


you really need some Grimdarkness and utter dispair to keep things within the realm of plausability.

Asherian Command wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Melissia wrote:Especially since a star is not made up of a single solid consistently structured material.

This

personally i think it was made up purely because SW fanboyz needed something to compete with all the other sci-fi universes out there and they needed something more dangerous then a Deathstar because otherwise it would be lame.

Star Wars fanfic is simply disgusting in the crazy stuff they come up with.


you really need some Grimdarkness and utter dispair to keep things within the realm of plausability.

True. 40k fanfic can get crazy too.

ChrisWWII wrote:Unfortunately, all those super vessels no longer exist. Suncrusher? Destroyed by falling into a black hole. Eclipse class destroyers? Only 2 were built. One was destroyed by Palpatine losing control, the 2nd was destroyed by the Galaxy Gun. Almost no records exist about the Sovereign class destroyer.

In short, yes the GE has a few ships bigger and better, but those few ships have all been destroyed. The most common ship, above an ISD comparable to an imperial Battleship is a SSD. And even a SSD can't last forever against a couple Imperial Battleships.

More importantly, what evidence do you have that they can 'mass produce' these giant vessels? Building a giant ship is a vastly different undertaking from building lots of small ships. To build one huge ship, you will need a huge construction yard to build it. NOt lots of little ones suitable for building ISDs. But a huge one for the bigger ship. There's a reason those ships weren't mass produced before. No doubt, they facilities needed to build them are extremely rare, and no doubt they are ridiculously expensive to make. If you haven't noticed, the most successful post-Palpatine Warlord wasn't the one with a stolen superweapon or gigantic ship....it was Thrawn. Who, as Ketara has pointed out, won by using smaller assets, not trying to make huge ones.

And finally, you can't magically come up with lost technology, and destroyed ships. If you can do that, then the IoM gets the Emperor and all the Primarchs back. Somehow, I doubt that's a fair thing to do.

ChrisWWII wrote:
More importantly, what evidence do you have that they can 'mass produce' these giant vessels? Building a giant ship is a vastly different undertaking from building lots of small ships. To build one huge ship, you will need a huge construction yard to build it. NOt lots of little ones suitable for building ISDs. But a huge one for the bigger ship. There's a reason those ships weren't mass produced before.

Once the Empire realized the threat posed by an organized rebellion with the downfall of the first Death Star battlestation, the Super Star Destroyers began to be mass-produced, with an average Moff or Sector Group Commander estimated to have at least one or more such superweapons in their arsenal throughout the course of the Galactic Civil War, bringing the total amount of ships up to hundreds or even thousands.[9] The Executor-class alone was made with over a dozen ships, their combined bulk equating to that of thousands of individual Star Destroyers. Such heavy warships served both as sector as well as regional command centers.

Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?

Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.

As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)

Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.

Grey Templar wrote:

Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?

Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.

As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)

Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.

Exark wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Exark wrote:
And might i ask how the heck an assasin is going to infiltrate a vessel the size of an X-Wing?

Quite simple actually. it would get inside when its docked and plant the bomb or steal it.

As to infiltration, how are you sure that the assassin wouldn't get blasted on the way there (given the firepower of most warships, however in this case, specifically the two SSDs?)

Well, a Callidus kills some petty officer when on Shore leave and disguises himself as that person. gets on board and does the job. this very thing happens in the Star Wars fluff and the movies illustrate that it is possable.

I must admit I have nothing to say against in this case. However, I was working under the assumption of being in space, not in dock.

Mr Nobody wrote:I don't think the comparison is fair because star wars is just a different scale to warhammer. The scariest thing in star wars blew up a planet, this is a common event in the warhammer universe.