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I think that there could be an argument put forward for Star Wars matching the Imperium of Man, but last time I tried it, I ended up with half a dozen people jumping down my throat, strawmanning furiously, and the whole thing descending into personal attacks. As such, I'm not too inclined to try it again.
That reminds me of the time I posted a ST vs. 40k thread here....it devolved pretty quickly before getting locked. Ah well.
But yes, Ketara, I have to say I was unaware of the number of SSDs produced. I always assumed they were rare commodities, cause each time one turned up it was ALWAYS a big deal. Isard was a major threat because she had the Lusankya (and arguably because she controlled Thyferra....). Zsinj was a major threat thanks to the Iron Fist, and Daala seemed to make getting the (K)Night Hammer together a major priority for her campaign.
It just seems to me that the reaction to seeing even an Executor class SSD seems to be one of seeing a kind of fabled threat, that you never expected to have to encounter. Of course, that's just my reading of it.
And...I'm not sure how many shipyards really could make SSDs. The only 2 that pop to mind are Kuat and Fondor.....I'm not sure if there are any others. All the other capital ship producing yards seem to turn out more ISDs or Mon Cal cruisers than the big SSDs.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Alot of people are saying about the imperiums firepower but I believe that the entire 40k universe together will beat the out of sw ie:tyranids and orks and tau and chaos and eldar and imperium and necrons and the only race who star wars would beat would be sisters alone
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/13 04:17:51
Leman Russ is the 40k incarnation of Chuck Norris.
Well, just to list the SSD'S even registered in the extended universe in alphabetical order, you have:-
-Admiral Giels Flagship SSD
-The Aggressor (part of the Inner Rim fleet)
-The Allegiance (Imperial Flagship during the Battle for Mon Calamari when the Emperor was resurrected)
-The Annihilator (destroyed in battle against the Zann Consortium above Kuat shipyards)
-The Aramdia (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Arc Hammer (modified SSD that served as the base for the Dark Trooper design)
-The Dominion (destroyed by Boba Fett and co)
-The Enforcer (Under Admiral Kohrin in the Second Fleet)
-The Executor (Vaders flagship)
-The Guardian (part of the Coruscant defense fleet until absconded with by rogue imperial commander)
-The Intimidator (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Iron Fist (Warlord Zsinj's flagship)
-The Knight Hammer (constructed in secret by Delvardus, stolen and renamed by Admiral Daala)
-The Lusankya (Ysanne Isards flagship)
-The Megador (Used by Admiral Pellaeon, modified to have huge numbers of TIE launch bays)
-The Razors Kiss (stolen from kuat by Zsinj)
-The Reaper (flahship of Grand Moff Kaine, and later Admiral Pellaeon)
-The Terror (fitted with a cloaking device, and commanded by Admiral Sarn)
-The Vengeance (Admiral Senns flagship)
These are of course, just the named ones. We see at least another three or four in the background artwork with the Emperor at Byss, one more unnamed in Black Sword Command, and others are referenced to throughout the franchise. So yeah, SSD's were pretty much manufactured on a relatively large scale initially. Once they'd become the Imperial Remnant, they stopped making them, but several dozen were manufactured before that, implying the capacity to create more on as large a scale as needed. Four Eclipse Class SD's, which are even bigger, were destroyed before they completed construction in the comic books, again, implying that if necessary, more ships of this size could be produced.
Note that this in no way diminishes the threat an SSD encompassed. A single Super Star Destroyer was worth ten Imperial Class Star Destroyers, or up to a hundred of the smaller Victory Class ones, and was not only capable of being modified in several different ways to include miniature superlasers/more launch bays/research facilities and so on, but boasted ridiculous amounts of firepower. They were alos largely automated, meaning that not too much in the way of manpower was required to crew one effectively.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/11/13 04:25:43
Ketara wrote:Well, just to list the SSD'S even registered in the extended universe in alphabetical order, you have:-
-Admiral Giels Flagship SSD
-The Aggressor (part of the Inner Rim fleet)
-The Allegiance (Imperial Flagship during the Battle for Mon Calamari when the Emperor was resurrected)
-The Annihilator (destroyed in battle against the Zann Consortium above Kuat shipyards)
-The Aramdia (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Arc Hammer (modified SSD that served as the base for the Dark Trooper design)
-The Dominion (destroyed by Boba Fett and co)
-The Enforcer (Under Admiral Kohrin in the Second Fleet)
-The Executor (Vaders flagship)
-The Guardian (part of the Coruscant defense fleet until absconded with by rogue imperial commander)
-The Intimidator (part of Black Sword Command)
-The Iron Fist (Warlord Zsinj's flagship)
-The Knight Hammer (constructed in secret by Delvardus, stolen and renamed by Admiral Daala)
-The Lusankya (Ysanne Isards flagship)
-The Megador (Used by Admiral Pellaeon, modified to have huge numbers of TIE launch bays)
-The Razors Kiss (stolen from kuat by Zsinj)
-The Reaper (flahship of Grand Moff Kaine, and later Admiral Pellaeon)
-The Terror (fitted with a cloaking device, and commanded by Admiral Sarn)
-The Vengeance (Admiral Senns flagship)
These are of course, just the named ones. We see at least another three or four in the background artwork with the Emperor at Byss, one more unnamed in Black Sword Command, and others are referenced to throughout the franchise. So yeah, SSD's were pretty much manufactured on a relatively large scale initially. Once they'd become the Imperial Remnant, they stopped making them, but several dozen were manufactured before that, implying the capacity to create more on as large a scale as needed. Four Eclipse Class SD's, which are even bigger, were destroyed before they completed construction in the comic books, again, implying that if necessary, more ships of this size could be produced.
Note that this in no way diminishes the threat an SSD encompassed. A single Super Star Destroyer was worth ten Imperial Class Star Destroyers, or up to a hundred of the smaller Victory Class ones, and was not only capable of being modified in several different ways to include miniature superlasers/more launch bays/research facilities and so on, but boasted ridiculous amounts of firepower. They were alos largely automated, meaning that not too much in the way of manpower was required to crew one effectively.
Wow thats alot.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I would first like to applaud all the Starwars buffs for their contributions, through all the gang assault of the peoples, they still remained true to their loves. Without them this thread would totally suck...
And I would like to remind everyone about the other races of 40k. It's been mentioned before, but many people like to ignore stuff...
From what i can gather about SW and 40k, there is much they differ in. Again, this has been mentioned before. FIGHTING STYLES! In SW, many battles are short, and engagements are quick. Also, with regards to space combat, their ships are quite close to each other, much like how the spanish armada worked. In 40k, battles are long and protracted, wars of attrition are common, if not the norm. And with space combat, their ships are quite far apart, much like the british fleet (in the same time period as the spanish armada). I believe that if SW could get off one good shot on 40k and cripple them, it could go in SW's favour. BUT if it fails, then the IoM will win, for it is used to such fighting
NOW to include the other races of 40k and how they would fare, as well as to get others to consider the other races, I will take a few stabs at what SW could possibly do against the others.
ORKS: I don't know much about the orks. Don't they have some asteroid/moon base thingy? the rok?
anyways, I think ork numbers would be quite difficult to combat as well as their warp sensitive ones. from what I can gather, ork things work through their sheer will and belief it does. The warp'eads (i hope i got that right) dont' really rely on the warp but on the ork collective as a whole. Also, ork reproduction cycles could also be a problem, for even when they lose they'll leave a nasty surprise.
Tyranids: Perhaps the only force that SW should fear outright. The numbers of tyranids in hive fleet tendrils (splinters) are enough to cripple imperial systems, I would shudder to think what they would do against the SW universe. Plus all the weird 'nid space creature thingy's they employ... weird stuff...
Necrons: I hate necrons, I absolutely hate them, mostly cuz they scare me. They're basically droids, droids that can regenerate, droids that can come back (redeploy), droids with weird guns that destroy things layer by layer and blades that are so thin, it's sharp to the molecular level. (okay seriously who comes up with this stuff? I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it)
Tau: Of all the races I think SW has the greatest chance facing the tau, of course I don't know much about them, so that could be why. But then again the republic and the tau might join forces, for the greater good?
Eldar: I know even less about the eldar than I do about the tau, so no clue
Chaos:
It's hard to know what chaos (khorne, slaanesh, tzeentch, nurgle, undivided, CSM) would do. They could cause much of the SW to turn in on itself, so through subtle corruption. Outright fighting? I don't know, but all I can think of is not looking good for SW
One point I have for SW is that it's in a galaxy long time ago in a galaxy far far away. and 40k is 40k year into the future. So SW being so advanced years ago from today, could possibly have advanced quite far by the time it reached the year 40,000
I'm not sure if this is a point, for I have no proof to back it up, but doesn't the IoM, actually all of 40k, have a larger standing army/fleet than SW? well the republic at least?
also force weapons are not chopped in half by lightsabers, for it is not the blade that chops but the field around it.
And if force and pskers were not equal, tyranids could just consume them and become force users... dat's bad...
GE could only win against IOM if using ICS which is lower cannon than movies thus not used,it gives higest firepower to the SW ships(high teratons to low petatons) and that would make them equal to 40k ships then combine that with Hyperdrive and the fact that they produce ships fast and you've got a dangerous foe,but even with that 40k has Necrons and Chaos who decide overall battle.
Hail to the creeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!baby Ask not the moot a question,for he will give you three answers,all of which will result in a public humiliation.
Well, you have to admit that without any accurate maps of the Milky Way, it'd be extremely difficult to make inter-system jumps. Of course, that also means that the Imperium would have problems invading the GE without the Astronomicon.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
*scratches head*
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/13 17:59:42
Ketara wrote:This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
*scratches head*
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
Hey i study the art of war! One day I want to be a strategics Planner for Video Games as it seems there is no tactical strategy in the games at all.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Ketara wrote:This is true. However, I was examining it from a more strategical sense. As a War Studies student, one of the things I've learnt is the strategic potential of being able to mass your forces where the enemy is weak, and disperse them when they are not.
Well you've got this amateur outclassed then....but. Yes it is vital to be able to mass where your enemy is weak, and disperse, and that added mobility is a HUGE advantage, albeit one with an easy counter. If the GE is on the attack, then there will be some worlds that it needs to take be it for resupply, stepping stones, or vital parts of the Imperial defense system that need to be taken down. You can't flit around forever, and sooner or later the GE will have to bring the Imperials to a pitched battle instead of random skirmishes.
The Galactic Empire's ability to reshuffle their forces constantly, speedily, and reliably, as well as the communication potential of the Holonet system allowing galaxy wide communications, means that they can quickly muster the necessary forces wherever necessary in order to beat off enemy attacks. The Imperium of Man might have better starships, but if the GE can mass the entire Imperial fleet to keep destroying segments of the Imperiums fleet, they would definitely have a fighting chance. It would come down more to strategy than ship firepower in such a case.
However, the GE would lack this network within the Milky Way. They wouldn't have accurate maps for hyperspace travel, adn they won't have the HoloNet up and running within the Milky Way at all. It'd be like giving each and every single soldier a cell phone. Yes, they'd be able to pass information along quickly, but that system collapses when they move beyond the coverage.
This severely hampers GW mobility, as they'll have to steadily advance from their intial beachhead while they map out the area, and set up HoloNet beacons. That severely curtails their mobility, simply because they wouldn't have any of their technological basis to rely on. This applies to the Imperium to a much lesser degree, just because Astropaths can work as long as the Warp exists, and messages can be sent and received with ease. Arguably, it'd work even better in the SW galaxy which is slightly happier than the Milky Way overall.
Considering the relative civility of this thread so far, I'm tempted to make a big post with my overall views of how it would play out in. Rather than doling it out piecemeal like this.
Please do! I'll do the same I think...
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
Okay then. The Empire vs the Imperium of man. Two ruthless, technologically advanced factions clash in battle. But before we can analyse in any depth, first, the scene must be set....
Okay, comparative size. We have to assume the Empire is of a certain minimum size, or the result wouldn't even be worth talking about. As such, here's a quick merging of the two maps I've thrown together.
In this mock up I have created, the Empire(or Star Wars universe) appears at roughly a fifth the size of the Imperium(or 40K universe). I'll note here that you can disagree with this if you like, but if you do, please don't bother responding to my post at all. Why? Because to be frank, this is the scenario I'm laying out. I'm making it as reasonable as I can for a realistic confrontation between the two, and if you're going to quibble over the scale involved and tell me the Imperium of Man would 'pwn' SW because they're 'like, a gazillion times bigger', than the whole thing is moot to begin with.
So yes. the next step is to establish a time period. For the Imperium, it will be the standard 41st century. For Star Wars, it will be between the Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. So Super Star Destroyer models are in construction, the Empire is still unified, and at its largest. Death Star technology is available, but is of course, phenomenally expensive, and the second one is under construction.
One thing I note a lot of people do is have discussion dissolve into superweapons vs superweapons. As such, I'm limiting things right now. The Sun Crusher/World Devastators/Galaxy Gun will be out of reach of the Empire at the start of the scenario. The world eater virus for the Imperium will also be forbidden. Why? Because to be frank, the Imperium of Man uses it as a last resort. If its on a war of conquest, it won't use this weapons. It is important to establish the context here with regards to super-weapons, or it turns into a superman vs batman debate.
With relative size, time period, and superweapons established, the next step is to determine where the force/warp stand in this scenario. I could say that everyone in the SW Universe is clearly a Blank, hence the lack of psychic activity, however, this would render the Empire impervious to Imperium assault, and be broken. As such, here's the concept I shall now lay out. Its completely invented by myself, but equalises and provides a coherent framework for the function of the Warp in this scenario.
Lying deep underneath the bowels of Coruscant is a massive psi-dampening device of ancient Necrontyr origin. It's the beginning of their great work to shut away the Warp forever, and is similar to the pylons on Cadia, only infinitely stronger. The result of this psi-damper, is that the closer to Coruscant you get, the weaker the Warp Becomes. So psykers on Coruscant would have all their access to the warp cut off, psykers half the SW galaxy away would only have half their relative strength and so on. This massive psi-damper is the reason daemons never manifest themselves, and psykers are an absolute rarity in the Empire, and tend to be more prolific on further out worlds. The Psi-damper does not prohibit warp travel within the Empire, but it slows it down. The closer to the psi-damper you get, the longer it takes you to travel the same amount of distance.
As said, this is entirely fictitious and invented on my part to give the SW Universe some sort of place within the 40K Universe. It also regulates the concepts of the Warp, and makes for a more realistic scenario, that doesn't involve people shouting, 'lol, my psyker would eat your jedi before he gets out his glowy stick!'
In terms of other races, both will still have the problems they've always had. So Eldar will be flying around, Orks launching Waaghs, and the Rebellion launching raids on Imperial planets. The only modification to be made will be the Emperor being able to escape the Second deathstar, as his presence is necessary to hold the Empire as a coherent entity, similar to the Emperor on Terra.
So yes. This is the scenario in which my discussion, and anyone who chooses to talk about it with me, shall take place. If you disagree with these basic premesis, then do not comment on my posts, as we will be envisaging separate incompatible scenarios, making any debate a waste of time.
I'll get to work on how I think the war would play out now...
I assume we will allow Imperial vessels that make it into the SW galaxy to fly around even without the Astronomicon? That seems fair enough to balance out the wonky world of Warp stuff within the SW galaxy.
My only other question would be the presence (or lacktherof) of daemons within the SW galaxy, and how the presence of daemons in the Milky Way affects Jedi and Sith force abilities. While these are relatively minor problems in terms of an all out war, it could become significant in certain situation, and thus enough to turn the course of the war. E.g. If a daemon comes and eats random force users mind, while said force user is involved in one of the many one-on-one-duels-to-decide-the-fate-of-the-galaxy things that SW loves so much (I am a SW fan too, so I speak in affectionate jest) it could turn into a major deciding factor.
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
The astronomican would function in its standard way, in order to allow Imperial ships to navigate, that's correct. However, the further into the SW Universe they go, and the closer to Coruscant, the slower Warp Travel becomes. This equalises the Empire having to send out scout probes and suchlike to be able to plot courses into the Imperium.
As said, the Psi-damper limits the influence of the Warp upon the SW Universe, making Daemon manifestations impossible. So whilst psykers become immediately far less powerful, its almost impossible for them to suffer a 'perils of the Warp' attack, as it were.
With regards to the Force, it shall be treated as a completely separate power to the Warp. However, the relative rarity of Jedi and Sith reduce them to being a minor factor in the equation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So. First contact.
It would initially be between Rogue traders and smugglers as is so often the case. Planets on the furthest outer rim engaging in small time trade with planets only barely under the control of the Imperium. In both the case of the Imperium of man, and The Empire, recognition that the other exists would be slow. There would be minor trade (blaster rifles, agricultural equipment, rare stones, minerals, etc) occurring for many years between the two criminal elements before any kind of official recognition occurred. Who would be the first to notice?
Well, Prince Xizor of Black Sun would be the logical choice to put two and two together. He reports to the Emperor, and controls the vast Black Sun crime syndicate. He would be the first official of either side to realise that there seems to be more worlds of undiscovered allegiance lying outside the control of the Empire. However, in keeping with his personality, before reporting this to the Emperor, he would seek to wring maximum advantage from it, and garner all available knowledge first. Therefore I could see a small fleet of smugglers/pirates setting out to see what they could see.
The nearest point of contact would be the Ghoul stars if the SW universe lies in the region of space indicated in the modified map I gave. To give a quote:-
This was the very first Crusade launched by High Marshal Helbrecht. This was a dangerous decision as no Imperial expedition had ever returned from this desolate region of space. The Black Templars were intent on finally vanquishing the 'Cythor Fiends' of the Ghoul Stars. The battles were bloody but decisive, and after eight years the the xeno population was all but destroyed, and the Black Templars began to push in towards the alien home world. Upon reaching the core systems, they were found to be eerily empty. No trace of the aliens could be found, but before a proper investigation could be launched, a desperate call for help came from the besieged world of Armageddon. High Marshal Helbrecht immediately contacted Marshals Ricard and Amalrich, and began to co-ordinate a massive attack on the Ork Waaagh. Three Black Templar Crusades descended on the Hive World of Armageddon. The Third War for Armageddon had begun.
To add some history to the scenario, we can presume the outer rim fleet had already been there, and destroyed the worlds of the Xenos before the black Templars could arrive. After Helbrecht and co. left for Armageddon, we can see colonists from the Empire slowly beginning to trickle into the region. The nearest Imperial presence would be at the close by Gates of Varl, which was written in the 40K fluff to guard against "the quiescent perils of the Ctan". This ties in with the concept of their being a C'Tan artifact upon Coruscant.
Therefore first contact would occur roughly in this region here:-
More to come...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/13 20:08:46
Alright then. Sounds fair to me, and I'm happy with the set up so far.
One thing about the Maps that seems curious is that, the SW Galaxy seems to be a bit more compact overall, wheras the Imperium is spread thinly all over the galaxy. This could prove to be quite significant as time goes on.....
Agreed with you on the Jedi issue, but I would like to point out that while Jedi/Sith are relatively few in number, they still tend to be found where the fighting is thickest, and thus have an impact far out of proportion to what their small numbers suggest....so they could be important in some sense.
Edit: Oh, now this is interesting. I was assuming seperate galaxies with wormhole...but this. This is much more interesting. So far so good Ketara...all seems normal and makes a lot of sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/13 20:15:41
"If everything on Earth were rational, nothing would ever happen."
~Fyodor Dostoevsky
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~Hanlon's Razor
With regards to the Force, it shall be treated as a completely separate power to the Warp.
Anyway, I will follow this write-up, at the moment it seems rather fair.
If I use -><- I'm not mocking you, it's a reflex from using the " silly" icon on every other forum.
However, if I use this -><- I might just mock you.
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Karash (at the home page of SATW) on the subject of America's fear of nudity:
which gets even weirder, seeing how you americans tend to use [the F-word] more often in various meanings than a smurf would use "smurf".
I think that Star wars would win in skirmishes and raids, but if it comes down to holding a planet or area of space then the IoM would win. This means that the IoM would own planets and key systems, but travel routes and area between planets would be owned by the empire.
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