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I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I still don't see where in your rules you list bolters as ignoring power armor and causing instant death to Marines.

Time and time again, marines, including those who'd have extra wounds like Captains and Chaplains, in the fluff are killed by one bolter round immediately.

Ok, so should Bolters cause Instant Death then? From a gameplay perspective, it'd work really well for Marines.

Yes, and ignore armor, but only against Marines.

They're not shown to be any more effective than lasguns against non-Marine opponents. Bolters are also shown to less effective at penetrating Xenos and non-Imperium armor than they are at penetrating Marine power armor.

Now, now, sonny Jim... can't just go throwing around claims like that...

I'm gonna need to see some proof there.

*Abraham Lincoln voice* I second this movement.

Oh yeah, in case anyone missed it, big update to OP!

=P

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Oh yeah, in case anyone missed it, big update to OP!

=P

...but it's the 11th...


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The terminators are awesome, but I feel they are a bit expensive for what they would lay down, maybe increase the strength by one and subtract 5 point? Because I know that for 75 points I can field a tricked-out crisis suit that would rape that termie in the @$$, or a pair of XV25s, either way, too expensive.

im2randomghgh wrote:@Dshrike, the astartes conquering planets is RARELY them scouring the entire surface. That's what the IG are for. The Adeptus Astartes usually only appear for the largest battles i.e. a fight for the planetary capital.


Also, teamwork is important, but still, it means that a krak missile can kill several marines, whereas the custodes style optimizes combat efficiency.

Shoulder to shoulder phalanxes are never a good idea when there are explosives and flamers around...the custodes still fight together, but just not so much in formation. Instead of relying on each other and staying in formation, they complement each other...idk where I am going with this...

They still must do reconnaissance missions, and have the ability to be at a certain place at the right time (Drop Pod?), arrive in a manner that allows them to functionally fight, and have a method to displace and relocate elsewhere if they have to, sometimes many many miles away.(Thunderhawk or Rhino?)

Good teamwork goes beyond standing next to each other and firing shots toward the enemy. Teamwork implies that each soldier knows his place in the mission place and is tactical flexible to change his role as the situation demands it. It happens regularly when I play airsoft or paintball. Good teams understand each member. Despite the fact that my closest team member is 50-100 feet away, we are coordinating our movements and fields of fire to maximize damage to our opponent. (example: If an Imperial Guard fireteam attempts to flank left to get into a better position to drop some grenades in a Chaos Marine gunpit, the firebase squad will increase fire output to suppress (or at least distract) the Chaos Marines to allow the flanking team to get to their destination. This needs to be done on the fly, and done with little explanation to be performed effectively. That is good teamwork.) Now obviously, in the 40k world, they've got factors like armored infantry, ginormous monsters, and flying aliens to deal with, but they've obviously are trained to deal with these situations.

@ I_am_a_Spoon

Honestly, I'm not too keen on touching any weapons currently available. Why would a Space Marine's bolter rend or cause instant death, when a guardsman armed with the same weapon does not? A well aimed .75 is a well aimed .75 and will function the same no matter the user. Unless you are correcting for the Astartes having auto-sensors in their helmets, and all those fancy gizmos that help them aim a bolter more precisely while on full automatic, then perhaps that should be represented by a special rule?

This is ultimately your show, however. =)

Dshrike wrote:
@ I_am_a_Spoon

Honestly, I'm not too keen on touching any weapons currently available. Why would a Space Marine's bolter rend or cause instant death, when a guardsman armed with the same weapon does not? A well aimed .75 is a well aimed .75 and will function the same no matter the user. Unless you are correcting for the Astartes having auto-sensors in their helmets, and all those fancy gizmos that help them aim a bolter more precisely while on full automatic, then perhaps that should be represented by a special rule?

This is ultimately your show, however. =)

There is a special rule. read the description of PA.

Also, Imperial Guardsmen may just have lighter versions of the bolter, since, I am thinking, an astartes boltgun would likely tear an arm off the IG who is firing it.

And the individual fighting perfection of the custodes means that they need not use teamwork, as it is rare for them to be deployed in numbers (when they were being deployed, I mean). Plus, this means they can split up much more entirely than can a tac squad.
(two five-man squads versus 5 two man squads?)

Also, they are basically a group of 10,000 primarchs. So yeah, they win hard.

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I don't think the Scythes of the Emperor were completely wiped out.

____________________________________________________
Wiki quote: The Scythes of the Emperor, along with their allies, the Lamenters Chapter, were virtually destroyed during the invasion of the Imperium of Man by the Tyranids' Hive Fleet Kraken.

____________________________________________________

Plus, a few squads of them were too busy killin Tau (DGC)

Read legends of the space marines, Scythes still exist

Riddick40k wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I don't think the Scythes of the Emperor were completely wiped out.

____________________________________________________
Wiki quote: The Scythes of the Emperor, along with their allies, the Lamenters Chapter, were virtually destroyed during the invasion of the Imperium of Man by the Tyranids' Hive Fleet Kraken.

____________________________________________________

Plus, a few squads of them were too busy killin Tau (DGC)

Read legends of the space marines, Scythes still exist

I am pretty sure LotSM was dated to before they were almost wiped out.

Either way, +1 for trying to help me prove my point.

I retract my statement about the Scythes of the Emperor. I've only access to the codices and my reasoning came from an excerpt describing how they were engulfed by one of the Hivefleets.

What's funny, is that the thing I like most about these changes is allowing the use of a carapace armored Captain. I've always wanted to field an all scout/carapace space marine army, but I had no way to get around the fact that all Astartes HQ come in the power armored variant.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:I still don't see where in your rules you list bolters as ignoring power armor and causing instant death to Marines.

Time and time again, marines, including those who'd have extra wounds like Captains and Chaplains, in the fluff are killed by one bolter round immediately.

Ok, so should Bolters cause Instant Death then? From a gameplay perspective, it'd work really well for Marines.

Yes, and ignore armor, but only against Marines.

They're not shown to be any more effective than lasguns against non-Marine opponents. Bolters are also shown to less effective at penetrating Xenos and non-Imperium armor than they are at penetrating Marine power armor.

Now, now, sonny Jim... can't just go throwing around claims like that...

I'm gonna need to see some proof there.

Ok, every single occasion of Marine on Marine combat in the Horus Heresy series, or in the movie, for examples of bolter round instantly killing any marine.

Also, the bolters only generally knock the Interex and Eldar around, while bouncing harmlessly of the Laer and the robots on 47-16.

The robots...were robots, they were HUGE if you remember, as large as knights.

And the Laer got raped. It took a month to conquer their entire planet.


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Also, Custodes.

All boltguns fire .75 caliber, high-explosive armor-piercing shells with a fuse that explodes a fraction of a fraction of a second after penetrating. This includes those used by Guardsmen, Sororitas, and Astartes.

Dshrike wrote:Honestly, I'm not too keen on touching any weapons currently available. Why would a Space Marine's bolter rend or cause instant death, when a guardsman armed with the same weapon does not?

Because... HEY LOOK OVER THERE A DISTRACTION!

im2randomghgh wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Oh yeah, in case anyone missed it, big update to OP!

=P

...but it's the 11th...

Check the flag beside my avatar... =P

+8 GMT baby!

im2randomghgh wrote:The terminators are awesome, but I feel they are a bit expensive for what they would lay down, maybe increase the strength by one and subtract 5 point? Because I know that for 75 points I can field a tricked-out crisis suit that would rape that termie in the @$$, or a pair of XV25s, either way, too expensive.

Well, against the wrong weapons (ie, Crisis Suits with massed plasma fire, or dedicated squads like Fire Dragons), these Termies will fall pretty hard. But they kick a lot of arse against pretty much anything else... with T5 and 2 Wounds, even lone meltas, plasmas and lascannons have trouble bringing them down.

You either need really heavy weaponry (ie, Rail Cannon or Demolisher-level heavy), or plenty of infantry to overwhelm them (very effective if they have Power Weapons, Rending Claws, etc) to take them out of the picture quickly. And they can deep strike too.

Dshrike wrote:Honestly, I'm not too keen on touching any weapons currently available. Why would a Space Marine's bolter rend or cause instant death, when a guardsman armed with the same weapon does not? A well aimed .75 is a well aimed .75 and will function the same no matter the user. Unless you are correcting for the Astartes having auto-sensors in their helmets, and all those fancy gizmos that help them aim a bolter more precisely while on full automatic, then perhaps that should be represented by a special rule?

This is ultimately your show, however. =)

I mentioned briefly in the OP that we'll be changing Bolt weapons and Chainswords for every army that uses them. Guardsmen, Sisters, Chaos and everybody else will all have access to the same weapons.
I did read somewhere that Marine boltguns are of a higher calibre than other Imperial bolters, but i can't find that particular passage atm, and I'd keep them both at the same level if I can... unless they're noted as being significantly different in the fluff?.

Oh, and check out the stats and wargear sheet down the bottom of the first post. Power armour allows the wearer to count as stationary all the time when firing Rapid Fire weapons.

Dshrike wrote:What's funny, is that the thing I like most about these changes is allowing the use of a carapace armored Captain. I've always wanted to field an all scout/carapace space marine army, but I had no way to get around the fact that all Astartes HQ come in the power armored variant.

Yeah, that always bugged me. I mean, they all train as Scouts before they can even don power armour, they should at least have the option.

DarknessEternal wrote:Ok, every single occasion of Marine on Marine combat in the Horus Heresy series, or in the movie, for examples of bolter round instantly killing any marine.

Also, the bolters only generally knock the Interex and Eldar around, while bouncing harmlessly of the Laer and the robots on 47-16.

The HH series was what initially led me to consider Rending.

And don't forget, "shots" in 40k don't necessarily represent individual rounds fired... with Rending, although rare, there's a chance that one of the Marines in the OP will single-handedly kill another custom Marine in one round of shooting, which for all we know represents the firer lining up one perfect headshot that destroys the entire skull, hitting the throat and severing the head, causing catastrophic internal damage to multiple vital organs, etc, rather than just holding down the trigger until the guy on the receiving end stops moving.

If you decide to use these rules though, feel free to make Bolters ID weapons.

I like the marines and the pics look cool too
but why not make everything better ???

im2randomghgh wrote:Sorry for it being all over the place...also, this would take up an elite slot.


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Plz be the right link, Plz be the right link...

I tried to download it but it wont open

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Would you want to play with or against Marines using these rules?[/i][/size]

Yes.

PonciferousNance wrote:I like the marines and the pics look cool too
but why not make everything better ???

im2randomghgh wrote:Sorry for it being all over the place...also, this would take up an elite slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plz be the right link, Plz be the right link...

I tried to download it but it wont open

did you click "open with" instead of "save as"? "save as" didn't work for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:All boltguns fire .75 caliber, high-explosive armor-piercing shells with a fuse that explodes a fraction of a fraction of a second after penetrating. This includes those used by Guardsmen, Sororitas, and Astartes.

Dshrike wrote:Honestly, I'm not too keen on touching any weapons currently available. Why would a Space Marine's bolter rend or cause instant death, when a guardsman armed with the same weapon does not?

Because... HEY LOOK OVER THERE A DISTRACTION!

On the wiki it said that some bolter variants fire 1.0 calibre.

Which is why I said boltgun variants, which are the rifle sized variation. Boltgun and boltpistol ammunition is interchangeable in the roleplaying games I believe.

Heavy bolters are LMG/MMG type weapons (albeit ludicrously more powerful than our current weapons of the same category) which fire 1.00 caliber bolter shells. This would be all variants of heavy bolters, it's what defines them. They have more propellant, faster velocity, more mass and penetration, and a larger explosion after penetration, allowing them to easily destroy light vehicles.

Melissia wrote:Which is why I said boltgun variants, which are the rifle sized variation. Boltgun and boltpistol ammunition is interchangeable in the roleplaying games I believe.

Heavy bolters are LMG/MMG type weapons (albeit ludicrously more powerful than our current weapons of the same category) which fire 1.00 caliber bolter shells. This would be all variants of heavy bolters, it's what defines them. They have more propellant, faster velocity, more mass and penetration, and a larger explosion after penetration, allowing them to easily destroy light vehicles.

...for the first time ever, I agree with you...

So are we agreed that these rules are feasible?

Ok, new Imperial Guard thread is up!

PonciferousNance wrote:I like the marines and the pics look cool too
but why not make everything better ???

My friends are working on other factions.

Luna Dragon wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Would you want to play with or against Marines using these rules?[/i][/size]

Yes.

Ta.

Melissia wrote:Which is why I said boltgun variants, which are the rifle sized variation. Boltgun and boltpistol ammunition is interchangeable in the roleplaying games I believe.

Heavy bolters are LMG/MMG type weapons (albeit ludicrously more powerful than our current weapons of the same category) which fire 1.00 caliber bolter shells. This would be all variants of heavy bolters, it's what defines them. They have more propellant, faster velocity, more mass and penetration, and a larger explosion after penetration, allowing them to easily destroy light vehicles.

We'll be standardising weapon variants amongst any factions that use them. Sisters, Guard, Chaos, Grey Knights, whoever... they'll all get the same kit.

im2randomghgh wrote:So are we agreed that these rules are feasible?

I think that everyone at least agrees that they're balanced from a gameplay perspective, even if they don't agree with my reasoning. Still, I'll be happy to hear anyone else out.

Melissia wrote:

Dshrike wrote:
The problem with using battle results like that is that almost all fiction is written from an Astartes viewpoint. And based off of the horus heresy novels with their varying viewpoints, I'd say that Astartes have a long history of lying to make themselves look better.

thanks because its rather hard to have an interesting novel written by one of the races that focuses just on war......Orks

they have no other concerns in life, makes a bad sub-plot

you sir, have been playing too much DOW II

Melissia wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:I carapace armour is tougher than flak but I'm pretty sure a bolter could still pierce it, this is is a rapid firing grenade launcher were talking about after-all.

No, it cannot.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Bolters cut straight through Carapace in Dark Heresy.

No more than they cut straight through power armor. Penetration works differently in DH than tabletop.

But carapace has a higher armor value than bolters have a penetration value. All things considered, in Dark Heresy power armor will block four damage from a boltgun while carapace armor will block two damage from a boltgun. Flak armor or less will block nothing (effectively this means that boltguns reduce the effectiveness of power armor by half-- I bet you'd hate to see THAT kind of armor penetration in tabletop, marines would lose a lot of their durability).

Yes, but we're talking also BL pubs to tabletop. The only armor in most of the BL lineup AND GW pubs that is impervious to regular bolt shells is a primarch's armor and often terminator armor.

I'd liken the scale to this.

Lasgun > ork tshirt

Shoota > ork tshirt, flak armor

Bolter > ork tshirt, flak armor, power armor

Heavy Bolter > ork tshirt, flak armor, power armor, terminator armor


Now this is all semi linear and can make sense if you think about it, but krak missiles are weaker than a heavy bolter against corax's (termie equiavalent) armor, denting and cracking his shoulder plate. Heavy bolters also are potent AT weapons in BL pubs, tearing through side/rear armor and sometimes front on most vehicles but russes.

Primarch armour is better than termie armour. Don't compare them. Plz.

im2randomghgh wrote:Primarch armour is better than termie armour. Don't compare them. Plz.

Give me reason not to, like a quote or reference of primarch's armor that makes it better than terminator, artificer, and power armor, and I won't.

Until then, primarch power armor = terminator armor in protection, with the maneuverability of power armor.

BronzeJon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Primarch armour is better than termie armour. Don't compare them. Plz.

Give me reason not to, like a quote or reference of primarch's armor that makes it better than terminator, artificer, and power armor, and I won't.

Until then, primarch power armor = terminator armor in protection, with the maneuverability of power armor.

^That's pretty much artificer armour.

And Angron's armour survived a MOUNTAIN falling on it.

Not his armor, as I recall reading, it was pretty mangled, but he himself was only banged up.

So no, it's not artificer, as by many BL publications, terminators can stride through ordinance and lascannons, autoguns and missiles like nothing, but never do you see a figure in artificer do such.

So again, Primarch armor is just scaled up power armor to fit them, it does not have the invulnerability capabilities of terminator armor. They cannot survive maintenance on a plasma reactor, which is what terminator armor was originally designed for.

BronzeJon wrote:Not his armor, as I recall reading, it was pretty mangled, but he himself was only banged up.

So no, it's not artificer, as by many BL publications, terminators can stride through ordinance and lascannons, autoguns and missiles like nothing, but never do you see a figure in artificer do such.

So again, Primarch armor is just scaled up power armor to fit them, it does not have the invulnerability capabilities of terminator armor. They cannot survive maintenance on a plasma reactor, which is what terminator armor was originally designed for.

Like nothing? There has only ever been one story I can remember that had a terminator survive a lascannon, and only because it hit the absolute hardest part of the armour, and even then the suit was wrecked and the Astartes barely clinging to life. And yes, artificer armour DOES equal terminator armour, with the only disadvantage being that artificer armour does not provide as much servo-boosted strength/weapons.

And the description of Angron's armour in the book was "dented"

Plus, another reason that Primarch armour is better is that, almost exclusively, it is forged by primarchs. Could a tech-priest match Vulkan's skill at the forge? Ferrus Manus'?

ALSO, in Fulgrim (or was it The First Heretic?), Corax's claws were annihilating terminator armour as if it were paper, but took several blows to piece Lorgar's armour, and Lorgar was the least physically powerful primarch.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour

So can lasguns. Lasguns can penetrate terminator armor if they hit a weak point. Boltguns cannot penetrate carapace armor if they hit its plates. This is demonstrated in the lore, in the game, and in the rpg (as mentioned; the best example is that a bolter shell hit Jurgen directly on the head, and his helmet protected him from no longer having a head).

This is represented by the weapons AP value. AP5 completely and utterly ignores flak armor, which is one of the most effective armors ever devised. And half the time, it penetrates carapace armor when it hits a weaker area.

In soul hunter there is 50 carapace armored guardsmen on a ship boarded by night lords. ONE marine walks into the room roars and proceeds to slaughter the guardsmen.

Hawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour

So can lasguns. Lasguns can penetrate terminator armor if they hit a weak point. Boltguns cannot penetrate carapace armor if they hit its plates. This is demonstrated in the lore, in the game, and in the rpg (as mentioned; the best example is that a bolter shell hit Jurgen directly on the head, and his helmet protected him from no longer having a head).

This is represented by the weapons AP value. AP5 completely and utterly ignores flak armor, which is one of the most effective armors ever devised. And half the time, it penetrates carapace armor when it hits a weaker area.

In soul hunter there is 50 carapace armored guardsmen on a ship boarded by night lords. ONE marine walks into the room roars and proceeds to slaughter the guardsmen.

Thats sounds like a serious case of movie marine

in reality the marine would be utterly cut down and may take a few with him

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

Hawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour

So can lasguns. Lasguns can penetrate terminator armor if they hit a weak point. Boltguns cannot penetrate carapace armor if they hit its plates. This is demonstrated in the lore, in the game, and in the rpg (as mentioned; the best example is that a bolter shell hit Jurgen directly on the head, and his helmet protected him from no longer having a head).

This is represented by the weapons AP value. AP5 completely and utterly ignores flak armor, which is one of the most effective armors ever devised. And half the time, it penetrates carapace armor when it hits a weaker area.

In soul hunter there is 50 carapace armored guardsmen on a ship boarded by night lords. ONE marine walks into the room roars and proceeds to slaughter the guardsmen.

Thats sounds like a serious case of movie marine

in reality the marine would be utterly cut down and may take a few with him

No, in reality he'd be sore afterwards.