Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:That's what a Lord Commissar IS. That's why GW gave the Lord Commissar WS5/BS5, because they are THAT damned good.

Lord Commissars are trained from age, what? six? then reach their prime around twenty. 14 years of training, basically.

SM are taken from age ~10 and train for HUNDREDS of years, plus have biologies DESIGNED for war.

SM for the win!

im2randomghgh wrote:Lord Commissars are trained from age, what? six?

Birth.

They reach their prime in their second century. They can live for many centuries with proper rejuvenat treatments. These treatments make you become physically younger-- your cells are restored to that of a young adult (mid twenties or so), and theoretically a human can live forever on these treatments if they don't get killed. It is not unheard of for important humans to reach their fourth century and still be kickin' ass on the battlefield.

It doesn't take "centuries" for a Scout to become a tactical .

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Lord Commissars are trained from age, what? six?

Birth.

They reach their prime in their second century. They can live for many centuries with proper rejuvenat treatments.

It doesn't take "centuries" for a Scout to become a tactical .

I'll say it again: Marines spend every day of their lives training, studying and/or gaining battlefield experience... and they have lifespans that often last for over half a millenia. They're selected from only the most promising recruits, learn at a highly accelerated rate, and devote every part of themselves to the mastery of combat in all its forms.

Only the very best and brightest un-augmented humans could hope to even match a Space Marine in terms of martial skill. A Lord Commissar falls into that category, at best. Which is why I've put them both at the same level.

Now I can understand you saying that a Lord Commissar (being the most experienced and skilled members of an already elite organisation) could potentially be nearly or even as skilled as a fully-fledged Marine, but saying that a Lord Commissar is guaranteed to be significantly better? Seriously?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:and they have lifespans that often last for over half a millenia

That's only the oldest Marines that last that long. Marines die all the time in battle, a marine lasting five hundred years is an exceptionally lucky or talented one. Just like a human lasting that long.

For that matter, Dante's age is considered extraordinary at a mere 1000 years. That's considered venerable even by the standards of Blood Angels, whom themselves live longer than the average Marine.

A Lord Commissar may very well be older and more experienced than your average tactical marine due to his various rejuvenation treatments-- when a commissar retires depends on if he is killed in battle or if his mind becomes slower and tired of war, rather than his body, which can be kept young due to rejuvenation treatments.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:A Lord Commissar falls into that category, at best. Which is why I've put them both at the same level.

You are wrong. They EXCEED the level of the average Astartes.

Marines are good, they're just not as good as you want to claim they are so you can have your little unbeatable mary sue army.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Lord Commissars are trained from age, what? six?

Birth.

They reach their prime in their second century. They can live for many centuries with proper rejuvenat treatments.

It doesn't take "centuries" for a Scout to become a tactical .

I'll say it again: Marines spend every day of their lives training, studying and/or gaining battlefield experience... and they have lifespans that often last for over half a millenia. They're selected from only the most promising recruits, learn at a highly accelerated rate, and devote every part of themselves to the mastery of combat in all its forms.

Only the very best and brightest un-augmented humans could hope to even match a Space Marine in terms of martial skill. A Lord Commissar falls into that category, at best. Which is why I've put them both at the same level.

Now I can understand you saying that a Lord Commissar (being the most experienced and skilled members of an already elite organisation) could potentially be nearly or even as skilled as a fully-fledged Marine, but saying that a Lord Commissar is guaranteed to be significantly better? Seriously?

Especially considering their reflexes,speed,and durability are all considerably better.

And rejuvenant treatments can increase lifespans considerably, but not indefinitely. Geneseed CAN bestow eternal life.

Lysander is 1000+ years old.

Bjorn is 10000+ years old.

Draigo is 1000+ years old.

The only reason that lord commissars are so powerful is that they are HQ choices. If you take a space marine HQ for comparison, Marneus Calgar, Lord Macragge is better across the board (except BS and Ld, where they tie)

Or a regular SM commader, they are still better across the board, except they tie for W.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:and they have lifespans that often last for over half a millenia

That's only the oldest Marines that last that long. Marines die all the time in battle, a marine lasting five hundred years is an exceptionally lucky or talented one. Just like a human lasting that long.

For that matter, Dante's age is considered extraordinary at a mere 1000 years. That's considered venerable even by the standards of Blood Angels, whom themselves live longer than the average Marine.

A Lord Commissar may very well be older and more experienced than your average tactical marine due to his various rejuvenation treatments-- when a commissar retires depends on if he is killed in battle or if his mind becomes slower and tired of war, rather than his body, which can be kept young due to rejuvenation treatments.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:A Lord Commissar falls into that category, at best. Which is why I've put them both at the same level.

You are wrong. They EXCEED the level of the average Astartes.

Marines are good, they're just not as good as you want to claim they are so you can have your little unbeatable mary sue army.

A Lord Commissar may be older than scouts or devastators, but usually not tactical marines. Especially considering that 40% of astartes are kept in reserve, training and becoming older. If you read Rynn's world, then you'll remember that Alessio Cortes killed TWO ork warbosses, and survived. He also [MOD Kilkrazy: Please do not use slang meanings of the verb "to rape"] a $hitlo@d of Nobz, and survived a nuke. Because he is an ASTARTES. They are the most powerful force in the galaxy.

90,000 of them nearly destroyed the entire IoM. 90,000. Think about it. During WWII, there were well over one million infantry units defending France, and they got steamrolled. 90,000 couldn't have changed the tide of a war on earth, but 90,000 nearly destroyed 1,000,000 worlds.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:and they have lifespans that often last for over half a millenia

That's only the oldest Marines that last that long. Marines die all the time in battle, a marine lasting five hundred years is an exceptionally lucky or talented one. Just like a human lasting that long.

For that matter, Dante's age is considered extraordinary at a mere 1000 years. That's considered venerable even by the standards of Blood Angels, whom themselves live longer than the average Marine.

A Lord Commissar may very well be older and more experienced than your average tactical marine due to his various rejuvenation treatments-- when a commissar retires depends on if he is killed in battle or if his mind becomes slower and tired of war, rather than his body, which can be kept young due to rejuvenation treatments.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:A Lord Commissar falls into that category, at best. Which is why I've put them both at the same level.

You are wrong. They EXCEED the level of the average Astartes.

Marines are good, they're just not as good as you want to claim they are so you can have your little unbeatable mary sue army.

Every marine has a geneseed and that geneseed is a piece of the emperor, the freaking emperor! That means every space marine has a part of the emperor in their blood, skin everything. A marine can break a humans head in his grasp. can a lord commissar do that? hell no! And if you say anything bot yes they can because they CAN get bionics it is irrevelent, yes they CAN get them doesn't mean he freaking does. Not every lord has bionics or life expanding alterations. Clearly at sometimes a lord can outmatch a marine but more then likely that wouldn't even happen seeing as they are on the same side. It's irrelevent to compare allies to eachother especially when there's no proof to say that either could outmatch the other. Gaunt has only killed chaos marines who are a whole mother breed. I vote to lock this thread as seeing this is getting nowhere. Everyone has their own ideas on the fluff and everyone has their own OPINIONS on the fluff. Don't go off of black library books because they change the fluff of everything all the time. Keep your opinions to yourself and if you don't like the thread then just be the bigger person and stop messing with it. For emperors sake calm the frak down everyone.

Why are we all losing our cool over a hypothetical scenario regarding Space Marine stats?

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before, so canon does not help us in this regard. It is my opinion that the astartes would be the victor, but again, without sources it can't be proven. It's an educated guess.

^^ Well said, Goddard!



If you want to do "Movie Marines" you should look out for a copy of the GW Movie Marines rules.

Alternatively, use the CSM Obliterator statline, give them more wounds, FNP and Eternal Warrior and I think you're about done.

Goddard wrote:Why are we all losing our cool over a hypothetical scenario regarding Space Marine stats?

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before

I find that unlikely, considering the frequency at which Astartes go rogue and/or heretical.

Melissia wrote:

Goddard wrote:Why are we all losing our cool over a hypothetical scenario regarding Space Marine stats?

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before

I find that unlikely, considering the frequency at which Astartes go rogue and/or heretical.

If they go rogue and/or heretical then they ARENT LOYALISTS!

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Goddard wrote:Why are we all losing our cool over a hypothetical scenario regarding Space Marine stats?

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before

I find that unlikely, considering the frequency at which Astartes go rogue and/or heretical.

If they go rogue and/or heretical then they ARENT LOYALISTS!

+1

Goddard wrote:

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before, so canon does not help us in this regard. It is my opinion that the astartes would be the victor, but again, without sources it can't be proven. It's an educated guess.

can't say I'm up opn all the fluff but Commissar Gaunt tears through Chaos Marines pretty readily.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Goddard wrote:

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before, so canon does not help us in this regard. It is my opinion that the astartes would be the victor, but again, without sources it can't be proven. It's an educated guess.

can't say I'm up opn all the fluff but Commissar Gaunt tears through Chaos Marines pretty readily.

With what amounts to a artificer-crafted powersword.

And you don't really see Chaos Marines in the books too much. Not in any real numbers at least, a few squads over the course of several books maybe.

As far as I know, most Chaos Space Marines are not ones who defect, but heretics/slaves who undergo gene-seeding. And me personally, I think a loyalist would typically perform better in combat, simply because of dedication to training. I can't imagine most Chaos Space Marines being very disciplined in their training program. That is not to say they don't train at all, I just don't think they as dedicated; maybe because they gotta save time for pillaging!

Goddard wrote:As far as I know, most Chaos Space Marines are not ones who defect, but heretics/slaves who undergo gene-seeding. And me personally, I think a loyalist would typically perform better in combat, simply because of dedication to training. I can't imagine most Chaos Space Marines being very disciplined in their training program. That is not to say they don't train at all, I just don't think they as dedicated; maybe because they gotta save time for pillaging!

GW's been wildly inconsistent with their fluff on this, some are recent defectors, some are 10,000 year old psychos, some are slaves with geneseed rammed down their throat. Rules wise they all count the same. It might be neat if the next chaos book offers 3 levels of CSMs... Maybe FFGs Black Crusade will do that.

I don't really think GW's trying to be wildly inconsistent with it.

They just put a lot of stock into "THE WARP DID IT!".

Mellisa.
Ok, look. These stats are in comparison to the Imperial guard. Clearly. That is their intended reference point. Not the orks. Not the Tyranids. Not the Eldar.

The game is balanced as it is. You cannot upgrade any faction on a 10 point scale without revamping the whole system from a fluff-based standpoint. WE UNDERSTAND THIS.

The point is simply to create the ability to play with truly elite characters and explore some some scenarios with them.

This thread, as I believe, was created to debate an accurate proportion between the "true" space marine and an imperial guardsmen, as well as their points value.

He is NOT creating an unbeatable army. Even if you could somehow take an entire army of these movie marines (which you CANNOT, according to ANY Force Organization Chart) they would not be unbeatable.

Please, stop the comparisons to other factions and races. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT. These are HOUSE rules designed to be used for fun. Again, quoting others, make your own thread if you wish to create 'movie' characters. Otherwise, please stop with the negativity. It is hurting this interesting, perfectly acceptable topic.

They just put a lot of stock into "THE WARP DID IT!".

The Warp: Duct-Tape for fluff since 1987.

And no, I Stand by my statement. Lord Commissars ARE the commissars who are truly skille dand lucky.

Look at Yarrick's statline. Arguably one of the best Commissars in the history of hte Imperium, capable of fighting with a WARBOSS one on one on fairly even grounds. A warboss who can tear through tactical squads with ease in both lore and game. He has the same statline as a Lord Commissar, minus him being T4 because of all of his augmetics.

That's right, Yarrick is the basis by which we measure other Lord Commissars.

THEY.

ARE.

BADASS.

They are skilled fighters and leaders, FAR more than the average Astartes. That's why they're Lord Commissars instead of normal Commissars.

General Fuzzum wrote:Please, stop the comparisons to other factions and races. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

No they aren't. They're perfectly relevant, especially when he starts to make decisions based off of insulting the other factions' capabilities.

It does make sense that Lord Commissars would be better than Marines, because as Mellisa said, Marines die all the time, and to become a Lord Commissar or even just a regular Commissar with some experience.

You'd have had to have lived through things that would easily kill a regular human (all without the strength or power armor of a Space Marine), not to mention more often and for a longer time because unlike Space Marines you don't fly in and finish off the enemy in the last year of a 10+ year war (Vraks comes to mind).

Kanluwen wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Goddard wrote:

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before, so canon does not help us in this regard. It is my opinion that the astartes would be the victor, but again, without sources it can't be proven. It's an educated guess.

can't say I'm up opn all the fluff but Commissar Gaunt tears through Chaos Marines pretty readily.

With what amounts to a artificer-crafted powersword.

And you don't really see Chaos Marines in the books too much. Not in any real numbers at least, a few squads over the course of several books maybe.

In the first book there two Iron warriors, one gets blown apart by Bragg's Assualt Cannon, the other had a chainsword plunged into it five sniper rounds and effectively a hellgun round to the face. There are five? I think on gereon.
But On character does say that basically 10 Traitor Marines will be enough to make a battlegroup flee and alert the astartes

This is a fascinating discussion, and while I agree that standard marines might could use a bit of a buff to bring them up to par with their Black Library Persona, I have a feeling that in doing so you'd have to bring other things up in the same way.

Like Melissa has said, Orks are indeed pretty tough, but they die quite quickly to marines in the current metagame... just like in fluff. Send a lone SM captain in vs a mess of boys, and the captain is probably going to win by a combination of armor saves, toughness, striking first due to initiative, and probably a power weapon. That SM captain is probably who you are reading about in BL books.

If you massively boost regular marines, you should boost aspect warriors for eldar as well, because they are pretty rough in BL fiction.

Basically, the SM heroes and HQs seem to decently match their fluff and BL fiction, standard marines maybe not so much. Maybe one thing they could get would be FNP, but even then, I am not sure.

TL;DR - I think the HQ heroes of space marines do a decent job portraying fluff, but maybe not the troops.

grayspark wrote:It does make sense that Lord Commissars would be better than Marines, because as Mellisa said, Marines die all the time, and to become a Lord Commissar or even just a regular Commissar with some experience.

You'd have had to have lived through things that would easily kill a regular human (all without the strength or power armor of a Space Marine), not to mention more often and for a longer time because unlike Space Marines you don't fly in and finish off the enemy in the last year of a 10+ year war (Vraks comes to mind).

Except
#1 not all commissars lead from the front.
#2 space marines are regular soldiers in terms of organisation. They do not get bodyguards, bodyguards which would save the lives of lords many, many times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:And no, I Stand by my statement. Lord Commissars ARE the commissars who are truly skille dand lucky.

Look at Yarrick's statline. Arguably one of the best Commissars in the history of hte Imperium, capable of fighting with a WARBOSS one on one on fairly even grounds. A warboss who can tear through tactical squads with ease in both lore and game. He has the same statline as a Lord Commissar, minus him being T4 because of all of his augmetics.

That's right, Yarrick is the basis by which we measure other Lord Commissars.

THEY.

ARE.

BADASS.

They are skilled fighters and leaders, FAR more than the average Astartes. That's why they're Lord Commissars instead of normal Commissars.

General Fuzzum wrote:Please, stop the comparisons to other factions and races. THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

No they aren't. They're perfectly relevant, especially when he starts to make decisions based off of insulting the other factions' capabilities.

Alessio Cortez killed two, one-on-one, twice, one right after the other, and survived. Because. He. Is. Astartes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Goddard wrote:

For the record, a Lord Commissar has never tried to kill a loyalist astartes before, so canon does not help us in this regard. It is my opinion that the astartes would be the victor, but again, without sources it can't be proven. It's an educated guess.

can't say I'm up opn all the fluff but Commissar Gaunt tears through Chaos Marines pretty readily.

On gereon he killed two (or was it three?) he attacked one (or two?) from behind, and the other he just distracted until the Untill Partisans shot a bolt through his grille.

If you read it a bit more carefully, Cain swept aside the guy's attacks with contemptuous ease, the Astartes never even got close to touching him in close combat, nevermind killing him.

im2randomghgh wrote:Alessio Cortez killed two, one-on-one, twice, one right after the other, and survived. Because. He. Is. Astartes.

He did it because he's Astartes captain material, and more than that he's the brother of Pedro ***** Kantor, one of the most badass Astartes ever to exist (and one of the best named ones)-- and he's following his brother's footsteps to glory.

That's right, the only reason he was able to do that was that Alessio Cortez was remarkable even amongst Astartes. A single Astartes killing even ONE warboss in one on one combat is something for hte storybooks, killing two is a one of a kind story. Even then he only managed to kill the first one while being grievously injured.

Melissia wrote:If you read it a bit more carefully, Cain swept aside the guy's attacks with contemptuous ease, the Astartes never even got close to touching him in close combat, nevermind killing him.

im2randomghgh wrote:Alessio Cortez killed two, one-on-one, twice, one right after the other, and survived. Because. He. Is. Astartes.

He did it because he's Astartes captain material, and more than that he's the brother of Pedro ***** Kantor, one of the most badass Astartes ever to exist (and one of the best named ones)-- and he's following his brother's footsteps to glory.

That's right, the only reason he was able to do that was that Alessio Cortez was remarkable even amongst Astartes. A single Astartes killing even ONE warboss in one on one combat is something for hte storybooks, killing two is a one of a kind story. Even then he only managed to kill the first one while being grievously injured.

1. That's because Alessio Cortez is the Chuck Norris of Astartes.

2. Not related to this post specifically, but very much related to this discussion, the ONLY two weaknesses of Astartes are that they rely to heavily on their brothers, and that they absorb all the traits of their chapter, including the bad ones.

3. Pedro Kantor is not a good name-a mexican first name and a Jewish last name? Kind of odd...Darnath Lysander is one of the best named in my opinion.

4. That's because Ciaphas Cain was one of the greatest men in human history. He, Gaunt, and Yarrick were the three most able swordsmen apart from the augmented (both biologically and mechanically), but Alessio Cortez could beat any of them. Without even noticing. He'd break their backs over his knee. He is as exceptional (if not more so) for an astartes than they are for humans, and THAT is saying something.

Also, I would like to put in that any Imperial Fist could own any Lord Commissar, rest of the discussion aside, because the duel is where they excel. To duel an Imperial Fist is comparable to out codex-follow an Ultramarine, or our burn-gak-down a salamander, or out-vampire a BA, or out secret-keep a DA etc.

Except
#1 not all commissars lead from the front.
#2 space marines are regular soldiers in terms of organisation. They do not get bodyguards, bodyguards which would save the lives of lords many, many times.

1 : You don't become a Lord Commissar from leading in the back, and I'm pretty sure 90% of Commissars do lead from the front, since it is their style and their job. Especially in specific regiments like the Catachans.

2 : Space Marines have to rely on their armor, which is a lot better than a bodyguard, a Commissar can still be shot whether or not he has bodyguards (in flak armor too...) defending him. And getting toe-to-toe with the enemy doesn't really mean that bodyguards help you a ton. This discussion however seems to be leaning more towards the opinionated side I'm seeing though... And I'm not sure how having bodyguards changes the fact that a Lord Commissar is better than a Space Marine in combat and skill.

Commissar Yarrick has the same stats as a Lord Commissar save for his increased toughness.

No, sir, a basic bog-standard tactical marine is not a better fighter than COMMISSAR YARRICK. He's not even the EQUAL of said Yarrick. In fact, I'd be pretty sure in a bet that Yarrick could slaughter a tactical one on one with contemptuous ease. Seriously, get it out of your head, Marines are tough, they're skilled, yes. But not THAT much. No. They aren't. And you will never get me to agree that they are no matter what you say.

Melissia wrote:when he starts to make decisions based off of insulting the other factions' capabilities.

Lol... hypocritical much?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Orks are indeed pretty tough, but they die quite quickly to marines in the current metagame... just like in fluff.

I agree, but the problem doesn't really lie with other armies IMO. There are too many Space Marines on the field, and although they collectively deal out a fair and balanced amount of damage, each Marine is individually lesser than those represented in 40k fluff.

So even though the Marines in the OP are more powerful than their codex equivalents, they bring far fewer numbers to the tabletop. With such a huge price hike, they are much less expendable and actually can't combat numerous enemies as well, but their weapons and stats make them effective against tougher targets, such as heavy infantry, unarmoured vehicles and even lightweight MCs. They aren't better in every way, but bring something different to the table, something that many other units don't.

They also have unique weaknesses that 16pt Space Marines don't: ID weapons will kill both types of Marine just as easily (a lucky Battle Cannon or Demolisher can wipe out 300+ points in one shot, for example), and with such reduced shot output, they fall quickly to cheap hordes, special/heavy weapons and enemies with plenty of wounds.

daedalus-templarius wrote:If you massively boost regular marines, you should boost aspect warriors for eldar as well, because they are pretty rough in BL fiction.

I would love to do a 40k-wide revamp, but as I said earlier in the thread, I don't know enough about armies like the Eldar to make the necessary changes. And it never really came up between me and my mates, as none of us collect Eldar.

Trust me, we're changing more than just Space Marines, but since I play as the Imperials I'm the one making up the Marine stats atm. I'm submitting them to you guys so that they can be "peer reviewed".

grayspark wrote:It does make sense that Lord Commissars would be better than Marines, because as Mellisa said, Marines die all the time, and to become a Lord Commissar or even just a regular Commissar with some experience.

You'd have had to have lived through things that would easily kill a regular human (all without the strength or power armor of a Space Marine), not to mention more often and for a longer time because unlike Space Marines you don't fly in and finish off the enemy in the last year of a 10+ year war (Vraks comes to mind).

Yeah, but potential Space Marine initiates still have to survive their upbringing (only the very toughest, strongest, smartest and highly skilled are selected as candidates), have to survive their rigorous recruit training (during which many die, and after which many are rejected outright), have to survive the entire creation process and strenuous bodily modification that it entails, and have to survive as a Scout (who are deployed to the most dangerous battlefields, and are often expected to operate in the field behind enemy lines) for years, possibly up to a decade (keeping in mind the rigorous testing, training and combat actions they are constantly put through) before they become a power-armoured Battle Brother.

Basically, their entire childhood and adolescence is devoted to warfare, both physically and mentally, and so many die before they can even put on power armour that only the best of the best survive to do so.



I'm not saying that Commissars have an easy time of it, because they don't, and are some of the most skilled and experienced soldiers humanity has to offer. But so are Astartes. In addition to their natural, instinctual affinity for combat, Space Marine Battle Brothers are already some of the most battle-tested troops in the entire Imperium, are already survivors of ruthless training, numerous battlefields and constant physical trauma, are relentlessly trialled and tested, devote every hour of their lives to bettering their combat skills, are physically and mentally engineered into beings with size, musculature, intelligence, bodily control, awareness and adaptability far surpassing almost any unaugmented human, and are able to learn (and master) combat techniques, tactics, strategies and other martial disciplines at rates beyond our comprehension (and they're always learning too).



I don't really understand why a 1pt increase to WS and BS is causing so much fuss... I'm definitely not saying that you're wrong, please don't take it that way, as I understand that this will always be a subjective debate. But I do believe that codex Marines have been severely scaled down (both to allow for tabletop armies of equal size, and to sell more plastic of course ).

The problem is that, if you make "fluff marines" you'll get "fluff orks" comments as well. Which is what you've had.

By making "fluff marines" you compare them to something. It's only natural that others will compare other armies to marines and come to the conclusion that "if space marines matches fluff so godawful, then other armies will as well".

So, that said, which archetype do you compare the "fluff marines" to? If it's Orks or one of the hero IG, then I'm obliged to agreed with Melissa. If it's with a regular guardsman, then I could possibly see how a marine's stats are a bit off.

However, don't lose sight of the limitations and scale of the system. Twice the strength characteristic is several times stronger, not twice as strong, for example. What fits into the WS4 category is pretty damned vast, the step up to WS5 is huge.

I quite like these ideas personally, perfect for custom scenarios/house rules and so on.

Also a note onto the Ork debate Melissa made, it raised some good points but I found the style of execution a tad too... Well out right hostile.

I am now tempted to do more fluff chaos stats for my marines, but Tzneetch alone knows how much rage will be thrown in my direction! THen again, I always thought veterans of over 10,000 years of combat would deserve more than marines who have only been around for 100-200 years.