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I think these rules are perfectly fine for house use.

The point is not that they're to scale with other races; the point is that they're point balanced enough to be used in a game.

If you added these rules to the IG dex, and fielded some, it would be completely fair from a points perspective, and that's really all that matters in house rules. They're simply there to offer the perspective of fielding small groups of truly elite models, moreso than is offered in elite choices for armies.

Obviously Im biased, being a marines player, and of course, if you compared these with other races, it would be out of scale. Everyone realises this. But this technique of proposing new stats for models as an add-on to another army is a good idea for "satisfying" those fluff-born cravings.

General Fuzzum wrote:I think these rules are perfectly fine for house use.

The point is not that they're to scale with other races; the point is that they're point balanced enough to be used in a game.

If you added these rules to the IG dex, and fielded some, it would be completely fair from a points perspective, and that's really all that matters in house rules. They're simply there to offer the perspective of fielding small groups of truly elite models, moreso than is offered in elite choices for armies.

Obviously Im biased, being a marines player, and of course, if you compared these with other races, it would be out of scale. Everyone realises this. But this technique of proposing new stats for models as an add-on to another army is a good idea for "satisfying" those fluff-born cravings.

Yeah, I find that GW would have better luck with a system with max stat 100 so that there are more variables and so that they could scale EVERY unit.


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Also, do you think my custode rules would be fair enough for house use? Or maybe as an HQ instead...I just made the stats so high since Valdor, who is physically the same as any other custode, beat horus in a sparring match.

Updated the OP with new profiles and a standalone "stats and rules" sheet.

- Marines now have only 2 wounds, but have FNP (kudos to Just Dave). I also increased the cost of Assault Marines, Scouts and Captains. I didn't really want to pull the Feel No Pain card, but so be it... at least they don't have Furious Charge too.
- Storm Bolters are now Assault 3 (to make them more distinctive and effective, as Boltguns can be fired up to 24" on the move too).
- Scouts are now Stubborn.
- Captains can now take special issue ammunition.


@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour, even if not consistently. I think Rending fits the bill here. As already stated, Bolters must be somewhat decent against heavy armour, otherwise the Horus Heresy would have been one big-ass galactic war of attrition.


@Tortoiseer: I've been using Imperial Guard and Tyranid stats for scaling purposes, and I agree, these Marines may not be a perfect fit with other 40k factions fluffwise. I would love to see fluffy necrons with immunity to poison, or rebalanced C'tan and Avatars of Khaine that actually live up to their godly origins.
Unfortunately, I can't tell you what kind of stats or rules a Warboss or Incubi would have on the "fluff-scale", because I don't know enough about Ork or Dark Eldar lore to hazard an educated guess. I do know Marines though.
If you have any specific comparisons in mind (as you obviously know non-Imperials much better than I do), then do you have any suggestions as to how I can further balance and improve these guys? And you you know of any other "fluffy" fan-dexes I could take a look at?


@im2randomghgh: I realise that novels and BL productions are supposed to compliment the TT game, but you can't deny that Marines as depicted in literature and Marines as depicted on the tabletop are a little different. These marines are based on "fluff" (ie, the fiction and background behind the game).
I also remember reading a short story about an Imperial planet under siege. The protagonist witnesses three lone Space Marines coming to the PDF's aid.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
[Unfortunately, I can't tell you what kind of stats or rules a Warboss or Incubi would have on the "fluff-scale", because I don't know enough about Ork or Dark Eldar lore to hazard an educated guess.

well a warboss did nearly choke the Emperor to death at the height of his power......

I'm talking about generic Warbosses, not thousand-year-old monstrosities. And even then:

"On the Ork infested planet of Gorro, Horus repaid the debt by hacking the arm from a huge frenzied greenskin as it struggled to choke the Emperor's life out of him."



That was one Warboss. Of exceptional age, size and strength. And even then, it struggled. I can't find anywhere where it says that the Emperor was even losing the fight.
Besides, it doesn't actually represent what a run-of-the-mill Warboss is capable of. I'm sure that there are probably a few Warbosses out there on the opposite end of the scale; ie, barely more physically powerful than an Ork boy.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour

So can lasguns. Lasguns can penetrate terminator armor if they hit a weak point. Boltguns cannot penetrate carapace armor if they hit its plates. This is demonstrated in the lore, in the game, and in the rpg (as mentioned; the best example is that a bolter shell hit Jurgen directly on the head, and his helmet protected him from no longer having a head).

This is represented by the weapons AP value. AP5 completely and utterly ignores flak armor, which is one of the most effective armors ever devised. And half the time, it penetrates carapace armor when it hits a weaker area.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour

So can lasguns. Lasguns can penetrate terminator armor if they hit a weak point. Boltguns cannot penetrate carapace armor if they hit its plates. This is demonstrated in the lore, in the game, and in the rpg (as mentioned; the best example is that a bolter shell hit Jurgen directly on the head, and his helmet protected him from no longer having a head).

This is represented by the weapons AP value. AP5 completely and utterly ignores flak armor, which is one of the most effective armors ever devised. And half the time, it penetrates carapace armor when it hits a weaker area.

Failing an armour save represents an incoming shot hitting an unprotected area of the body. For example, a Terminator failing an armour save against a lasgun hit represents the las-beam striking a un-armoured or lightly-armoured area (such as the eyes, underarms, armour joints, etc), and causing enough damage to incapacitate him.

Weapons with an AP equal to or lower than a particular armour value would theoretically penetrate any part of the armour they impacted with anyway, so wounds by weapons that ignore armour represent the projectile/blade penetrating the armour.

But (and hear me out), I still reckon that Bolters should be Rending, as the impact of the bolt with a target's armour does not necessarily render the projectile any less of a threat, unlike most other projectiles. Modern firearms often penetrate body armour, and yet the body armour provides enough protection to neutralise the kinetic energy of the bullet, at least enough to prevent lethal levels of trauma being inflicted upon the wearer. Not so with bolts.

They penetrate (at least to a degree), and then explode. Against models with an armour save of 4+ or better, the bolt that does this is likely burrowed pretty far into the enemy's armour. Maybe not enough to fully penetrate in its own right... but theoretically far enough to deliver a high-explosive warhead partially or completely through a target's armour. And need I remind you that the shockwave created by a detonating bolt is powerful enough to liquidate humanoid targets?

My main point is that the bolter shell itself is not the only inherent threat to armoured enemies posed by Bolter weaponry. Once even partially penetrated, the toughest armour could be blown apart from the inside out. Jurgen happens to be very lucky that the bolt that hit him glanced off. In gameplay terms, that would be a non-rending wound against Jurgen, which he then successfully "saved". I'm not exactly proposing that Bolters count as AP2, am I?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Updated the OP with new profiles and a standalone "stats and rules" sheet.

- Marines now have only 2 wounds, but have FNP (kudos to Just Dave). I also increased the cost of Assault Marines, Scouts and Captains. I didn't really want to pull the Feel No Pain card, but so be it... at least they don't have Furious Charge too.
- Storm Bolters are now Assault 3 (to make them more distinctive and effective, as Boltguns can be fired up to 24" on the move too).
- Scouts are now Stubborn.
- Captains can now take special issue ammunition.


@Melissia: Bolters seem to be able to penetrate most armour, even if not consistently. I think Rending fits the bill here. As already stated, Bolters must be somewhat decent against heavy armour, otherwise the Horus Heresy would have been one big-ass galactic war of attrition.


@Tortoiseer: I've been using Imperial Guard and Tyranid stats for scaling purposes, and I agree, these Marines may not be a perfect fit with other 40k factions fluffwise. I would love to see fluffy necrons with immunity to poison, or rebalanced C'tan and Avatars of Khaine that actually live up to their godly origins.
Unfortunately, I can't tell you what kind of stats or rules a Warboss or Incubi would have on the "fluff-scale", because I don't know enough about Ork or Dark Eldar lore to hazard an educated guess. I do know Marines though.
If you have any specific comparisons in mind (as you obviously know non-Imperials much better than I do), then do you have any suggestions as to how I can further balance and improve these guys? And you you know of any other "fluffy" fan-dexes I could take a look at?

I'm afraid I don't have much familiarity with fluffy fandex's. Like I said before I just feel thats in most cases its a lost cause without redoing the whole game's stat system.
I do appreciate the changes you made however. I don't like the Feel no pain addition, but I can deal with it. Overall I wouldn't mind playing a game with a few of these marines (hopefully represented by truscale models) provided guard or nids were primarily used. Would be fun for a house game.

It just gets out of hand with some other units. From the fluff and game we know relative differences differences between the races even if we're not sure of exact numbers. For instance we know that a warboss is much stronger and tougher than a marine and often just as fast or skilled in combat. We know that eldar aspect warriors are faster than a marine and similarly skilled and that necron weapons outclass those of the imperium. If a sergeant is going to have WS6, then something like a klaivex or exarch would be hitting WS 6 or 7. A warboss might have 5 wounds.
Its not that your marines are unfair for their points (you priced them well I think). Its just that if we apply that kind of standard to other races we will probably start topping out the 10 point scale a lot sooner than you might think.

Except carapace armor and power armor have no uncovered spots (except the face in the case of carapace, but even that is entirely optional as carapace masks exist to be sure).

What they instead have is WEAK SPOTS. Areas, particularly articulate areas such as joints, which are not able to be as covered by rigid armor. A boltgun shell landing flat on a carapace chestplate would knock the wearer back and possibly break a few ribs to be sure, but it wouldn't likely inflict lethal damage. The same shell landing on the chest of flak armor? It's go right through it, shattering the flak plate with ease.

And so what if boltguns explode? So do shoota slugs. That's why they're both S4 instead of S3.


edit: Hell no, a warboss is MORE skilled and FASTER than all but the most talented Marines. And stronger, and deadlier in pretty much every way. It takes someone of captain-level skill or better to tango with a warboss and stand a chance of beating him. Most still don't stand a good chance, he's just that skilled and powerful of a monster.

Melissia wrote:Except carapace armor and power armor have no uncovered spots (except the face in the case of carapace, but even that is entirely optional as carapace masks exist to be sure).

What they instead have is WEAK SPOTS. Areas, particularly articulate areas such as joints, which are not able to be as covered by rigid armor. A boltgun shell landing flat on a carapace chestplate would knock the wearer back and possibly break a few ribs to be sure, but it wouldn't likely inflict lethal damage. The same shell landing on the chest of flak armor? It's go right through it, shattering the flak plate with ease.

And so what if boltguns explode? So do shoota slugs. That's why they're both S4 instead of S3.


edit: Hell no, a warboss is MORE skilled and FASTER than all but the most talented Marines. And stronger, and deadlier in pretty much every way. It takes someone of captain-level skill or better to tango with a warboss and stand a chance of beating him. Most still don't stand a good chance, he's just that skilled and powerful of a monster.

Well, PA DOES have uncovered spots, as I am pretty sure the elbows on SM armour are pretty much atmospherically sealed bodygloves...

As to the bolter vs. carapace armour, I am with you for the most part Melissia, but I would argue that a point-blank shot would NOT be stopped by carapace armour, or PA for that matter. Either way, there is not point in argue, since it varies depending on the fluff.

With the Flak armour, it is just like modern flak jackets (literally, it IS the same) where any handgun would have a snowballs chances in hell of puncturing the plate, but can easily puncture in-between plates as it is not 100% coverage, otherwise you couldn't move. Also, it is similar in that the plates can 100% of the time stop regular-calibre pistol rounds, but if you get shot with a rifle (of any kind) you are just as dead as you'd be if you were butt naked.

As to the warboss being deadlier in every way, yes, but not in terms of accuracy of intelligence...you can't forget the intelligence, because if Orks WERE intelligent, they would probably become the Arch-enemy of Man. Sorry Chaos, you've been demoted.

Also, what the emperor fought wasn't a warboss, it wasn't even a warlord, it was described as an OVERLORD
Even Ghazzy just rallied a planet full of Orks, this Ork had a vast, interstellar empire that had an enormous amount of the Great Crusade's man-power diverted to destroying it.

im2randomghgh wrote:With the Flak armour, it is just like modern flak jackets (literally, it IS the same) where any handgun would have a snowballs chances in hell of puncturing the plate, but can easily puncture in-between plates as it is not 100% coverage, otherwise you couldn't move. Also, it is similar in that the plates can 100% of the time stop regular-calibre pistol rounds, but if you get shot with a rifle (of any kind) you are just as dead as you'd be if you were butt naked.

Nope, flak armor is far different from our modern armors.

Even at point blank, flak armor is going to absorb quite a bit of impact from autogun and stubber rounds, as well as its ablative layers repeatedly weathering lasgun bolts, but ablative layers can only last so many shots before they need to be replaced. It is not modern flak jackets, but rather a series of layers of ablative and impact absorbent materials, especially against explosives and shrapnel. 40k being what it is, this also makes it protective against standard bullets and lasers as well, because 40k's shrapnel is even more deadly than our world's shrapnel.

As to the warboss being deadlier in every way, yes, but not in terms of accuracy of intelligence...you can't forget the intelligence, because if Orks WERE intelligent, they would probably become the Arch-enemy of Man. Sorry Chaos, you've been demoted.

They ARE the arch-enemy of man, by dint of being far more successful in spreading themselves across the galaxy than Chaos has been. When I say I consider Orks vs Guard to be the epitome of all that makes 40k, part of the reason is because this is by far the most common fight fo any particular lineup.

Orks, especially warbosses and above, are brilliant in their areas of expertise. Which is basically war.

Warbosses+ aren't brilliant in anything. They acknowledge the usefulness of the most basic tactics imaginable i.e. Chop 'em from da side boyz!

But it is not only hard for their 25-IQ-points-below-even-uneducated-hab-scum to make strategies, it is hard to make a frenzied mob of Ork Boyz obey commands an execute complicated defensive strategies.

Also, they ARE NOT the arch-enemy of man, the only reason they are so wide-spread is their...unique means of reproduction. They couldn't even put a dent in the great crusade, no xenos could, and humanity would have killed them all. The ONLY thing, and I do means it, the ONLY thing that could harm the human race as a whole is the fact that humans have sins-great, exploitable sins- that the chaos gods took advantage of. Nothing but humans can kill humanity...delicious irony.

If humanity hadn't succumbed (partially) to the taint of chaos, and in so doing created an un-beatable enemy and leaving itself with only a quarter of the military resources it had during the great crusade, and had time to consolidate, then they would likely be able to face-and beat-then main tyranid fleet we all know is coming. The necrons would be a minor nuisance and the Tau (and all the small uni-planetary alien species) would be squashed without realizing. Humanity would have MORE SOLDIERS THAN IT WOULD ACTUALLY NEED.

I didn't see any rules for "bolter weakness".

In all the books, stories, and the movie, power armor is irrelevant against other bolters. Those things shoot right through it. Other races/factions heavy armor is MORE sturdy against bolters than Astartes'.

Want part of the fluff? Must take all of the fluff.

im2randomghgh wrote:Warbosses+ aren't brilliant in anything.

Stop reading marinewank for a little bit and go read some REAL fluff instead. The reputation Orks have for a lack of intelligence has been used as a weapon against Imperial tacticians so many times that you'd think that people would have learned by now.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Also, they ARE NOT the arch-enemy of man

And yet, they still provide a larger threat to the Imperium as a whole than Chaos does. Oh sure, Chaos occasionally puts up a few big fights, but their major thrust still hasn't managed to get past the cadian gate.

Meanwhile Orks invaded the Eye of Terror for laughs.

Tortoiseer wrote:From the fluff and game we know relative differences differences between the races even if we're not sure of exact numbers. For instance we know that a warboss is much stronger and tougher than a marine and often just as fast or skilled in combat. We know that eldar aspect warriors are faster than a marine and similarly skilled and that necron weapons outclass those of the imperium. If a sergeant is going to have WS6, then something like a klaivex or exarch would be hitting WS 6 or 7. A warboss might have 5 wounds.
Its not that your marines are unfair for their points (you priced them well I think). Its just that if we apply that kind of standard to other races we will probably start topping out the 10 point scale a lot sooner than you might think.

I'd love to see some sort of collaborative fan-dex project based entirely on the 40k fluff, but I haven't been able to find anything else for other factions (two of my mates play Nids and Necrons, so I'm sure there's potential there).
But I agree for the most part. Eldar aspects should be highly skilled in their area of expertise, and Necron weaponry should be utterly destructive. But I'm not knowledgeable about their fluff (especially Eldar) to put a value on any of that. So If anybody else can, I'd gladly take a look.

On a side note, the only reason a Sgt's WS is higher is because he's a Veteran too. I'll take another look at WS.

Melissia wrote:edit: Hell no, a warboss is MORE skilled and FASTER than all but the most talented Marines. And stronger, and deadlier in pretty much every way. It takes someone of captain-level skill or better to tango with a warboss and stand a chance of beating him. Most still don't stand a good chance, he's just that skilled and powerful of a monster.

I guess it's fitting then that under my rules, only a Captain would stand any decent chance of defeating a Warboss 1 vs. 1...

DarknessEternal wrote:I didn't see any rules for "bolter weakness".

In all the books, stories, and the movie, power armor is irrelevant against other bolters. Those things shoot right through it. Other races/factions heavy armor is MORE sturdy against bolters than Astartes'.

Want part of the fluff? Must take all of the fluff.

"Rending". And nobody else seems to think it fits the bill here.

But thankyou for your input.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Warbosses+ aren't brilliant in anything.

Stop reading marinewank for a little bit and go read some REAL fluff instead. The reputation Orks have for a lack of intelligence has been used as a weapon against Imperial tacticians so many times that you'd think that people would have learned by now.

Orls are cunning, but they aren't tactically brilliant, by any meaning of the term. Especially not without an exceptional Warboss or other commander.

The reason why Orks are considered unintelligent by almost every race out there is that most of them are pretty damn unintelligent. They make up for this with their physical build: stat-wise, their WS is higher than that of even a Stormtrooper, their speed is represented by their high Attacks characteristic (as Orks don't actually have a lot of personal initiative), and their Toughness is just as high as any power-armoured Marine in the OP. I do agree that they should be stronger however... they were probably kept at Strength 3 in the first place to avoid being equal with Space Marines.


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Ok, updated OP again.

- Lowered some of the higher WS characteristics (and prices, where applicable).
- Scouts now have only one wound.
- Terminator Armour now grants the Slow and Purposeful special rule, rather than Relentless.

Better? Worse?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:The reason why Orks are considered unintelligent by almost every race out there is that most of them are pretty damn unintelligent.

They are only marginally less intelligent on average than a human, and it's more a matter of education than anything as feral worlders, underhivers, and similar uneducated populaces have similar intelligence ratings (intelligence representing book learning), and this is for a very basic ork yoof.

Meanwhile bosses such as freebootas tend towards intelligence equal to that of a human commander, as when an Ork grows bigger, so does his brain, as would (I presume, as this is more important for intelligence) the connections between neurons in his brain.

The difference is that this intelligence is focused on one thing, and one thing only-- war.

So then, in your opinion Melissia, how would a Space Marine compare to an Ork Boy? Stat-wise?

I'd also appreciate an honest appraisal of the Marines I posted in the OP, and not just their weaponry.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:So then, in your opinion Melissia, how would a Space Marine compare to an Ork Boy? Stat-wise?

I'd also appreciate an honest appraisal of the Marines I posted in the OP, and not just their weaponry.

If I absolutely HAD to make changes? I think the current statlines for both marines and Orks are fine, as they're both fluffy and balanced. The only change I MIGHT be convinced to make is to give tactical marines CCWs... maybe. But if I HAD to make changes...

The average Ork Boy out of his yoof (meaning, he has battles under his belt) would be roughly equal in strength, toughness, and melee skill to a devastator marine (remember, devastators have just graduated from being a scout). The marine would have the advantage of striking first (orks, while far more skilled on average, are still about as agile as a common human soldier until they get to scarboy/nob/warboss status). If they are inferior physically from Marines it is a slightly inferior strength (due to lacking power armor) and inferior agliity-- but not toughness. Orks, from their very birth, are as tough as if not tougher than the battle brothers of the Adeptus Astartes. An Astartes can't have his friggin' head cut off and then put on the body of a different astartes and live to tell the tale, after all. Thus:

Yoofs:
WS4, BS2, S3, T4, Wn2, I2, A2, Ld7, 6+
Composition: 10-30 Ork Yoofs
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Option to take shootas or sluggas+choppas.
Option to upgrade one Yoof to a Scarboy Boss (same stats as a scarboy, options as nob bosses)

Boyz:
WS5, BS2, S4, T4, Wn2, I3, A2, Ld7, 6+
Composition: 10-30 Ork Boyz
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Option to take shootas or sluggas+choppas
-- With slugga and choppa: Option to take 0-2 big choppas or Sparky Choppas (power weapons)
-- With shootas: Option to take 0-2 big shootas or rokkit launchas.
Option to take 'Eavy Armor
Option to upgrade one Boy to a Nob Boss (same stats as a nob)
-- May take 'Eavy Armor, Bosspole
-- May replace Choppa with Big Choppa, Sparky Choppa, or Power Klaw
-- May replace Slugga with Shoota (free), Zzap Slugga, Big Shoota, or Rokkit Launcha
-- Zzap Slugga changes the slugga to S2d6 and APd6, and Gets Hot on an AP roll of 1 and 2 regardless of if it hits.

Scarboyz:
Ws5, BS2, S4, T5, Wn2, I3, A3, Ld8, 6+
Composition: 10-20 Ork Scarboyz
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Option to take shootas or sluggas+choppas
-- With slugga and choppa: Option to take 0-3 big choppas or Sparky Choppas (power weapons)
-- With shootas: Option to take 0-3 big shootas or rokkit launchas.
Option to take 'Eavy Armor
Option to upgrade one Scarboy to a Nob Big Boss (same stats and equipment as a nob big boss below)

Nob Squad
Ws6, BS3, S5, T5, Wn3, I4, A3, Ld8, 6+
Composition: 5-10 Ork Nobz
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Relentless
Option to take any type of infantry weapon in the Ork codex, up to two separate weapons each.
Option to take 'Eavy Armor OR Mega Armor
Option to take upgrade one Nob to a Nob Big Boss (+1 attack and leadership)
-- May take 'Eavy Armor OR Mega Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner
-- Option to take any type of infantry weapon in the Ork codex, three weapon limit.

Warboss:
Ws7, BS3, S6, T6, Wn4, I5, A4, Ld10, 6+
Composition: 1 Ork Warboss
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Relentless
Eternal Warrior
Option to take any type of infantry weapon in the Ork codex, up to three separate weapons.
Option to take:
-- 'Eavy Armor OR Mega Armor, Attack Squigs (up to two) OR Targetin' Squig (+1 BS), Trophy Rack (reduces enemy leadership in CC), Da Best Choppa/Shoota (one weapon becomes master-crafted), Bosspole

Big Mek
Ws5, BS3, S4, T5, Wn2, I3, A2, Ld10, 6+
Composition: 1 Ork Big Mek
Mob Rule
WAAAGH!
Feel no Pain
Furious Charge
Eternal Warrior
Mek'll Fix It!
Option to take any type of weapon in the Ork Codex, including Mekboy Weapons and Vehicle Weapons, up to two weapons total.
Option to take:
-- One of the following Mekboy Weapons: Shokk Attack Gun, Kustom Force Field, Grabba-Tossa Klaw, Krusha Kannon
-- 'Eavy Armor OR Mega Armor, Attack Squigs (up to two) OR Targetin' Squig (+1 BS), Trophy Rack (reduces enemy leadership in CC), Da Best Choppa/Shoota (one weapon becomes master-crafted), Bosspole

Krusha Kannon: SX AP2 Ordnance 1 Blast, Poisoned 5+, glances on pen roll of 3-5, penetrates on 6.
-- Firing a ball of pure gravity, the Adeptus Mechanicus is still not sure how this works.

Grabba-Tossa Klaw: SX AP2, Ordnance 1. Wounds on a 2+, glances on 2+. On successful wound or glance (if the target model survives) the Mekboy may move the target 6 inches in any direction. If a vehicle is moved into an enemy unit this way, it counts as having tank shocked (or rammed) that unit. This can cause infantry units to get out of coherency and thus need to make a move to get back in unit coherency.
-- Essentially a modification of the well known Ork tractor beam technology.

Mek'll Fix It!-- May use up a shooting phase to reverse Immobilized or Weapon Destroyed on a vehicle within six inches. Roll d6-- on a 4+, the vehicle is fixed, on a 1, the vehicle suffers Immobilized if it wasn't already and the Mekboy cannot assault this turn as he decides to "upgrade" it on the spot.



I could probably go on, but I don't think this has any point as the current statlines are fine for both, balanced and yet MOSTLY representative of their fluff stats.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:So then, in your opinion Melissia, how would a Space Marine compare to an Ork Boy? Stat-wise?

I'd also appreciate an honest appraisal of the Marines I posted in the OP, and not just their weaponry.

If I absolutely HAD to make changes? I think the current statlines for both marines and Orks are fine, as they're both fluffy and balanced. The only change I MIGHT be convinced to make is to give tactical marines CCWs... maybe. But if I HAD to make changes...

The average Ork Boy out of his yoof (meaning, he has battles under his belt) would be roughly equal in strength, toughness, and melee skill to a devastator marine (remember, devastators have just graduated from being a scout). The marine would have the advantage of striking first (orks, while far more skilled on average, are still about as agile as a common human soldier until they get to scarboy/nob/warboss status). If they are inferior physically from Marines it is a slightly inferior strength (due to lacking power armor) and inferior agliity-- but not toughness. Orks, from their very birth, are as tough as if not tougher than the battle brothers of the Adeptus Astartes. An Astartes can't have his friggin' head cut off and then put on the body of a different astartes and live to tell the tale, after all.

That devastators just graduated from being scouts doesn't mean his strength is lower-the only reasons Scouts are weaker is that they have no power armour. They only lack the BC. Just thought I'd put that out there.

I bolded the ridiculous part. They are not far more skilled on average than a space marine in melee. They have natural melee skills passed down to them through their genes, but space marines are the fittest humans in the Imperium of Man, who are then thinned down to the crème de le crème, and then they are psycho-indoctrinated and made in 8-foot-tall monsters. Orks are very deadly in a melee, but if you bring an even number of ork boyz and astartes, everyone knows who will win.

Everything else I agree with. In Salamanders, some of the orks had actually had riveted their armour onto their hides. But it IS vaguely possible that a space marine head could be re-attached, as, when guillotined, the human head continues to live for 10 seconds, probably longer for astartes, plus the medical science of the mechanicus...if they acted quickly...

And also, I'd just like to point out that custodes are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY tougher than any orks could ever be. As tough as a Warboss/Warlord. Physically, they are only barely inferior to the primarchs, who are only barely inferior to the Emperor (if you forget his powers that is) who is as powerful as the Chaos Gods.

If any of you remember The first Heretic , a custode named Vendatha had a full clip of bolter rounds fired point-blank into his face, a power-sword shoved through his mouth, and was impaled on a spear, and was still alive. This is after he killed three astartes in three seconds and only ended up losing the combat because he stopped to speak to Lorgar.

im2randomghgh wrote:They are not far more skilled on average than a space marine in melee.

Read the context.

Melissia wrote:(orks, while far more skilled on average, are still about as agile as a common human soldier until they get to scarboy/nob/warboss status)

IE, everything in that parenthesis was referring to the comparison with a common human soldier.

Ok, does anyone have any other problems with the current Marine stats in the OP?

If not, I'll assume that with the changes I've already made, they're balanced enough to use, and fairly priced too.

Yes, I have a problem with every single one, as I think the current statline is just fine, with the possible option of a CCW. for tac squads.... maybe.

I don't think Marines deserve to be WS5 default, or 2 wounds default, or S5 default, not unless you're also going to make ALL power armor add +1 strength, in which case you're going to have to deal with mega armor making nobs S10 with klaws, or Sisters of Battle all being S4, and certain Eldar units also being S4. The thing is, power armor enhances strength, but not enough to justify a raise from S4 to S5. Keep in mind, S5 is the strength of a WARBOSS in the current metagame. A warboss is one of the strongest creatures in the galaxy. And no way are mere tacticals as tough as a nob. They'd be lucky to be as tough as a Boy.

I think that you could only accurately represent the fluff with a d10 system (minimal).

Ok, so a few last changes I'm thinking of making:

- Reducing Strength to 4 (no bonus from armour).
- Nerfing Captain a little (either reducing Wounds characteristic, removing Eternal Warrior or both).
- Removing Rending from Bolt weapons (although I really don't want to, as Rending adds so much to the way they play).




For future reference, everybody I play with is fine with them as they are now, but I still want to make them as balanced and fun to play with as possible.

Any ideas for special rules or wargear changes? Any genuine complaints about their effect on gameplay? Should I reconsider their points costs?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Ok, so a few last changes I'm thinking of making:

- Reducing Strength to 4 (no bonus from armour).
- Nerfing Captain a little (either reducing Wounds characteristic, removing Eternal Warrior or both).
- Removing Rending from Bolt weapons (although I really don't want to, as Rending adds so much to the way they play).




For future reference, everybody I play with is fine with them as they are now, but I still want to make them as balanced and fun to play with as possible.

Any ideas for special rules or wargear changes? Any genuine complaints about their effect on gameplay? Should I reconsider their points costs?

Well considering that even most codex chapters still change their structure from the codex a little (or a lot) you could add different weapon choice, squad structure choice, etc., like the Iron Snakes with an apothecary per squad and no companies.

I think W2 is still reasonable, since in just about 100% of fluff SMs can endure wounds that would outright pulp a guardsmen.

I don't.

No way is the average Space Marine equal to a goddamned ORK NOB.

T4 represents their ability to withstand things htat would normally pulp a guardsman (IE, S6 doesn't instakill them).

Melissia wrote:I don't.

No way is the average Space Marine equal to a goddamned ORK NOB.

T4 represents their ability to withstand things htat would normally pulp a guardsman (IE, S6 doesn't instakill them).

You know, your a real buzzkill. He's just trying to make it so a weapon such as a puny lasgun or a little knife cant outright kill a space marine, it's not like hes making all marines like that, it's just an elite choice for guardsmen, more then likely a guard player would rather take other things. I say test it out first before you say it's overpowered. Just saying your negativity is not helping this thread at all and as you can plainly read most people like these alterations. No ones asking you to play against them so you don't need to get all hostile about it.

Melissia wrote:No way is the average Space Marine equal to a goddamned ORK NOB.

T4 represents their ability to withstand things htat would normally pulp a guardsman (IE, S6 doesn't instakill them).

Ok, that's the stupidest damn comment I've seen from you so far. Who gives a sh*t about instant death when you only have one wound? And in the current 40k rule-set, S6 is just as lethal to a Marine as it is to a Guardsman anyway... because they only have one wound.

Are you aware that Marines have redundant vital organs? That not only are they harder to wound in the first place (thanks to a fused and extended ribcage, strengthened bones, denser muscle tissue, insta-clotting blood, etc), but that they can endure multiple wounds that would prove fatal to an normal human thanks to their enhanced physiology? That they can keep fighting after injuries as severe as a punctured lung or destroyed heart?

And if you do happen to rely on Instant Death weapons to kill Marines, well, I hope you realise that anything that'll ID a regular Marine will still ID one of the Marines in the OP! Yay!



What you don't seem to realise Melissia, is that Orks aren't f*cking juggernauts. In the rules you posted earlier, an Ork Boy was WS5, S4, I3, with two attacks, TWO wounds (*gasp*), Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, and the option to take power weapons and heavy armour.

And to think... throughout this entire thread, you've been giving me sh*t about doing the same thing, and making Marines too powerful... Marines that you'll NEVER come across on the tabletop, rules that you are IN NO WAY obliged to use. I even asked you specifically for constructive criticism, and yet all you've done is rant about bloody Orks. Sorry to be rude, but go and make your own thread please.







@im2randomghgh: Any suggestions about weapons or wargear?

@Riddick40k: Thanks mate.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Are you aware that Marines have redundant vital organs?

Not as many as Orks, whom are fungus/mammal.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:That not only are they harder to wound in the first place (thanks to a fused and extended ribcage, strengthened bones, denser muscle tissue, insta-clotting blood, etc)

Sorta like Orks... whom have stronger bones, dense muscle tissue, fungus in their blood that helps with clotting, etc....

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:but that they can endure multiple wounds that would prove fatal to an normal human thanks to their enhanced physiology?

Hey, that sounds like Orks, whom can survive things even an Astartes can't survive!

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:That they can keep fighting after injuries as severe as a punctured lung or destroyed heart?

That reminds me of Orks for some reason.


What you don't seem to realize is that your idea is poorly thought out, only makes sense when put into a vacuum where only Marines and Humans exist. And that's not including the weapons, which don't make sense even then.

When I made those statlines, I should note, I pointed out that they were wholly and entirely unnecessary and that I disagreed with their existence, just like I disagreed with your ideas. But I put them there simply to respond to your request.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Are you aware that Marines have redundant vital organs?

Not as many as Orks, whom are fungus/mammal.

In what world are they part mammal? Just because they aren't mushrooms doesn't meant hey can't be fungus and not move.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:That not only are they harder to wound in the first place (thanks to a fused and extended ribcage, strengthened bones, denser muscle tissue, insta-clotting blood, etc)

Sorta like Orks... whom have stronger bones, dense muscle tissue, fungus in their blood that helps with clotting, etc....

Ork bones are stronger than human bones, but comparing them to an Astartes is ridiculous. The fused ribcage is like if you welded a bronze shield into your torso, except that if can heal, FAST.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:but that they can endure multiple wounds that would prove fatal to an normal human thanks to their enhanced physiology?

Hey, that sounds like Orks, whom can survive things even an Astartes can't survive!

Orks CAN'T survive more than Astartes. Orks skin is thicker than astartes skin, they are tough in that way, but an astartes with 3/4 of his head, half his torso, and a limb blown off WILL fight, survive, and become a dreadnought/heavy augmetic marine.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:That they can keep fighting after injuries as severe as a punctured lung or destroyed heart?

That reminds me of Orks for some reason.

If you destroy an Ork's heart, he is dead. The only way it is physically possible to survive losing a heart, is to have two. The ONLY way. Punctured lung maybe, I'll at least give you that. Plus, space marine hearts have drugs in them that they can spread to the rest of the body (FNP) that makes them even more resistant to pain than an ork. Pair that with Wolverine-healing and they are HARD to kill.


Two wounds for a space marine is ENTIRELY reasonable. When I first saw that they were only able to take one wound, I lost faith in humanity (not 40k, I am talking about 21st century, that humans wrote this, this abomination is what scared me) Also, that they don't have FNP rattled me too. AND I think they should have rules to represent the betcher's gland. Counts-as defensive grenades maybe? IDK, just my mini-rant.


And as for the weapons, I think I would need to know which chapter you play. If you let me know, then I will offer some suggestions.