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im2randomghgh wrote:In what world are they part mammal?

40k. Actually I should have said animal, but whatever-- while they are vertebrate, warm-blooded, air-breathing (well, most of the time) animals they don't have body hair or mammary glands associated with Earth-based mammals.

im2randomghgh wrote:Ork bones are stronger than human bones, but comparing them to an Astartes is ridiculous.

No it's not. Ork bones NEED to be stronger than an Astartes if they're going to eventually develop into a nob or warboss, they'd need the extra strength to hold all that muscle and weight. If you have too much muscle on a weak bone, you will literally break your own bones through flexing your muscles (muscles only work when attached to a hard structure such as bone and cartilage).

im2randomghgh wrote:The fused ribcage is like if you welded a bronze shield into your torso, except that if can heal, FAST.

Bronze isn't all that strong.

im2randomghgh wrote:Orks CAN'T survive more than Astartes. Orks skin is thicker than astartes skin, they are tough in that way, but an astartes with 3/4 of his head, half his torso, and a limb blown off WILL fight, survive, and become a dreadnought/heavy augmetic marine.

So will an Ork. Hell, a nob cleaving a boy's head in in a way that would normally cause lethal brain damage to a human is considered a mild thump to an Ork.

im2randomghgh wrote:If you destroy an Ork's heart, he is dead.

An Ork has a lot of redundant and incredibly durable biological systems. Hell, their systems are SO durable and redundant that in Dark Heresy a medic working on an Ork (even one not trained or knowledgeable in Ork physiology) gains a bonus working on a Ork compared to working on a human. Orks getting up after seemingly lethal wounds is so common that the Imperial solution is "there is no kill like overkill". Meanwhile Marine physiology is complex and requires very careful care to prevent corruption, something Orks don't have to worry about.

im2randomghgh wrote:Two wounds for a space marine is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY unreasonable.

Fixed.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In what world are they part mammal?

40k. Actually I should have said animal, but whatever-- while they are vertebrate, warm-blooded, air-breathing (well, most of the time) animals they don't have body hair or mammary glands associated with Earth-based mammals.

im2randomghgh wrote:Ork bones are stronger than human bones, but comparing them to an Astartes is ridiculous.

No it's not. Ork bones NEED to be stronger than an Astartes if they're going to eventually develop into a nob or warboss, they'd need the extra strength to hold all that muscle and weight. If you have too much muscle on a weak bone, you will literally break your own bones through flexing your muscles (muscles only work when attached to a hard structure such as bone and cartilage).

im2randomghgh wrote:The fused ribcage is like if you welded a bronze shield into your torso, except that if can heal, FAST.

Bronze isn't all that strong.

im2randomghgh wrote:Orks CAN'T survive more than Astartes. Orks skin is thicker than astartes skin, they are tough in that way, but an astartes with 3/4 of his head, half his torso, and a limb blown off WILL fight, survive, and become a dreadnought/heavy augmetic marine.

So will an Ork. Hell, a nob cleaving a boy's head in in a way that would normally cause lethal brain damage to a human is considered a mild thump to an Ork.

im2randomghgh wrote:If you destroy an Ork's heart, he is dead.

An Ork has a lot of redundant and incredibly durable biological systems. Hell, their systems are SO durable and redundant that in Dark Heresy a medic working on an Ork (even one not trained or knowledgeable in Ork physiology) gains a bonus working on a Ork compared to working on a human. Orks getting up after seemingly lethal wounds is so common that the Imperial solution is "there is no kill like overkill". Meanwhile Marine physiology is complex and requires very careful care to prevent corruption, something Orks don't have to worry about.

im2randomghgh wrote:Two wounds for a space marine is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY unreasonable.

Fixed.

I will do this in order.

1. Mammal means you mature in your mother's womb before your are born. Orks have no mothers, or wombs. Not. Mammals.

2. When they get bigger, what makes you think their bones don't get bigger/stronger? Just simple logic...

3. Okay, picture this: it is a few hundred years B.C., you are an Ithacan invading Troy, a trojan swings his sword at you, would you rather

A. raise your bronze shield and deflect his blow
or
B. drop your shield, puff out your chest, and hope he hits your ribs and that your ribs deflect the blow even though that's just about impossible.

Bronze is many, many times harder than flash and weak (ribs) bones. Plus, the human ribcage is about an inch (or more) thick, and an Astartes ribcage would probably be about 4cm thick. That's 40mm of bronze.

4. You are preaching the toughness of Orks without even considering how tough marines are. Grimaldus had an entire temple fall on him, after having his PA severely damaged, and after being wounded multiple times in battle, and then dug his way out. All the orks in the temple (including nobz and a warboss) were dead. +1 for marines.

5. Marines do NOT need complex care. They are completely immune to all forms of poison, and not only do their inner workings protect them from it, it is able to concentrate it and mix it into their betcher's gland and actually make them stronger. Poison. Makes. Them. Stronger.

The no kill like overkill thing is more because they emit spores when they die, which means you need to burn the corpse.

Fixed? More like broken.

P.S. NEVER EDIT QUOTES!

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Mammal means you mature in your mother's womb before your are born.

No, a mammal is a warm-blooded animal whose skin is more or less covered in hair and who are nourished by milk. Not all mammals have live births (monotremes for example). As noted, I was wrong, but mostly with my choice of words (IE, Orks are fungus/animal, not fungus/mammal).

im2randomghgh wrote:2. When they get bigger, what makes you think their bones don't get bigger/stronger? Just simple logic...

That would require that their bones are rebuilt. It's not just size, but structure that determines strength, and a weak bone structure turning into a strong structure is a pretty drastic change. That makes no sense, and frankly unfluffy because Orks have always been described as ludicrously durable anyway. Anything that can cut through an unarmored Ork limb is going to cut through an Astartes limb too.

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay, picture this: it is a few hundred years B.C., you are an Ithacan invading Troy, a trojan swings his sword at you, would you rather

I'd rather duck behind cover when faced with military-grade bullets, monomolecular swords, and lascannons.

im2randomghgh wrote:You are preaching the toughness of Orks without even considering how tough marines are.

The irony here amuses me.

im2randomghgh wrote:Marines do NOT need complex care.

Go read the creation of a space marine. Even after creation they have a steady diet of chemicals and hormones.

im2randomghgh wrote:The no kill like overkill thing is more because they emit spores when they die, which means you need to burn the corpse.

No, that's not overkill, that's dealing with the body.

No, that's overkill. That's las-gun bolts +flamer, which is overkill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the ribcage, you do not need to choose, that is the point. It is a passive advantage over, well, anything.

And yet, it's still nothing compared to the power armor the marine wears. If something penetrates power armor, the bone ain't gonna stop it.

Melissia wrote:And yet, it's still nothing compared to the power armor the marine wears. If something penetrates power armor, the bone ain't gonna stop it.

If it has penetrates power armour, it is probably going to have lost a LOT of momentum. Also, I don't know about you, but have my body essentially made of armour is pretty reassuring.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, it's still nothing compared to the power armor the marine wears. If something penetrates power armor, the bone ain't gonna stop it.

If it has penetrates power armour, it is probably going to have lost a LOT of momentum. Also, I don't know about you, but have my body essentially made of armour is pretty reassuring.

Which means overconfidence, because the nasty things can still jsut go through your gut and around your ribcage.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and probably actually tougher. There's no reason that Marines should get Wn2. The T4 represents their toughness.

A marine taking hits and continuing to fight is represented by the hits not wounding them, IE, the T4. So a bolter shell hitting them has a good chance of not incapacitating them, whereas it stands a VERY good chance of incapacitating a human. Meanwhile a lasgun doesn't stand a good chance of incapacitating a marine. Bog-standard tacticals ARE NOT AS TOUGH AS NOBS. They never have been, they never will be.

Simple as that really.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, it's still nothing compared to the power armor the marine wears. If something penetrates power armor, the bone ain't gonna stop it.

If it has penetrates power armour, it is probably going to have lost a LOT of momentum. Also, I don't know about you, but have my body essentially made of armour is pretty reassuring.

Which means overconfidence, because the nasty things can still jsut go through your gut and around your ribcage.

Orks are just as tough as marines, and probably actually tougher. There's no reason that Marines should get Wn2. The T4 represents their toughness.

A marine taking hits and continuing to fight is represented by the hits not wounding them, IE, the T4. So a bolter shell hitting them has a good chance of not incapacitating them, whereas it stands a VERY good chance of incapacitating a human. Meanwhile a lasgun doesn't stand a good chance of incapacitating a marine. Bog-standard tacticals ARE NOT AS TOUGH AS NOBS. They never have been, they never will be.

Simple as that really.

It doesn't reflect them being about to take damage: it represents them being 8 feet tall.

If you fire a pistol at an elephant, it will just hit it's hide and make an elephant charge at you. But even if it penetrated, it would still be able to take several hits. The elephant would probably be T6/T7 with like, W3? Working together, these represent the size and toughness of the elephant

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:2. When they get bigger, what makes you think their bones don't get bigger/stronger? Just simple logic...

That would require that their bones are rebuilt. It's not just size, but structure that determines strength, and a weak bone structure turning into a strong structure is a pretty drastic change. That makes no sense, and frankly unfluffy because Orks have always been described as ludicrously durable anyway.

So by your reckoning, a baby's bones are the same size and strength as a fully-grown adult's?

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:You are preaching the toughness of Orks without even considering how tough marines are.

The irony here amuses me.

No. Low-level Orks are hard to wound, but once you hit something vital, they go down (maybe not dead, but incapacitated at least). A Space Marine has multiple redundant vital organs... even if you manage to hit something vital, the Marine will still be fighting at full effectiveness.

Orks that are able to sustain a sh*tload of damage already have 2+ Wounds on their profile.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Marines do NOT need complex care.

Go read the creation of a space marine. Even after creation they have a steady diet of chemicals and hormones.

No, during the creation process, they adhere to a strict diet and require psychotherapy to mature several of their implants.

After that however, they can operate in the field for years at a time, eating and breathing whatever the hell they want.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The no kill like overkill thing is more because they emit spores when they die, which means you need to burn the corpse.

No, that's not overkill, that's dealing with the body.

That's what he meant.

Melissia wrote:And yet, it's still nothing compared to the power armor the marine wears. If something penetrates power armor, the bone ain't gonna stop it.

It's bulletproof actually.

Melissia wrote:The T4 represents their toughness.

A marine taking hits and continuing to fight is represented by the hits not wounding them, IE, the T4. So a bolter shell hitting them has a good chance of not incapacitating them, whereas it stands a VERY good chance of incapacitating a human.

Then explain to me why an IG Company Commander is T3 with 3 Wounds.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:So by your reckoning, a baby's bones are the same size and strength as a fully-grown adult's?

That is a stupid comparison. An Ork fights from the day-- the hour, often the minute-- he is born. He is expected to take grievous injuries which a human would find lethal before he sees his first non-Ork, then recover fast enough to get into battle the next day, if not later that day.

A human child is not.

Their development is vastly different.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:A Space Marine has multiple redundant vital organs... even if you manage to hit something vital, the Marine will still be fighting at full effectiveness.

Just like an Ork! I could do this all day.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Orks that are able to sustain a sh*tload of damage already have 2+ Wounds on their profile.

Ork Boyz don't have two wounds.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:No

Yes.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The no kill like overkill thing is more because they emit spores when they die, which means you need to burn the corpse.

No, that's not overkill, that's dealing with the body.

That's what he meant.

No it isn't. Even if you completely and utterly kill an Ork, destroy its head, destroy its heart, etc in a completely overklil way, he'll still spread spores. Using the flamer on the Ork isn't overkill, it's cleanup. It's more comparable to an apothecary going around with a reductor.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:It's bulletproof actually.

*looks up deathwatch rules*
No it's not.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:The T4 represents their toughness.

A marine taking hits and continuing to fight is represented by the hits not wounding them, IE, the T4. So a bolter shell hitting them has a good chance of not incapacitating them, whereas it stands a VERY good chance of incapacitating a human.

Then explain to me why an IG Company Commander is T3 with 3 Wounds.

Because balance dictates that independent/special characters are tougher than non-independent/special characters. In actual lore, the company commander is no tougher than the average veteran soldier, perhaps slightly tougher due to cybernetic implants... maybe, in some cases.


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im2randomghgh wrote:It doesn't reflect them being about to take damage: it represents them being 8 feet tall.

Your analogy is nonsensical (as is the norm for your arguments). An elephant is not merely ~12% larger than a human being. AT BIRTH, an elephant weighs more than most fully adult human males. Even the overweight ones. An adult human male has about 3% of the mass of an adult male elephant.

There is no comparison, stop that.

Do you want to get this thread locked?

Of course not. Just seem to be getting sidetracked a lot.





I'm more worried about the Captain being too tough now than anything else. I could either reduce his Wounds and/or remove Eternal Warrior so that he's barely tougher than any other Marine, or keep him the way he is so that he functions as a one-man powerhouse. I think I might go with the former... make him highly-skilled, but considerably more fragile when not attached to a squad.

As for everyone else, I might remove the Strength bonus provided by armour. But I won't lower their WS or BS, as right now they're equal to a Lord Commissar, and just about right in comparison to many other 40k entities (in my opinion anyway). I also like the Toughness bonus provided by Terminator armour, as it counter-balances the Slow and Purposeful USR pretty well, but provides important extra protection against Instant Death.



At the moment, Marines are effective against medium and heavy infantry, and can even tackle MCs with a little luck. They absolutely suck against cheap hordes though... they just can't put out enough firepower to win back their points before they die.

Tacticals/Scouts sort of make up for this with Heavy Bolters and Auxiliary GLs (on Vet. Sergeants), and Assault Marines are able to dish out a fair number of wounds to an assaulting Zerg-rush or Guard wave (especially with a Flamer), but quickly end up overwhelmed, way before they make back their points. Terminators are pretty good all round (with Assault Cannons, BS5 Cyclones and the new, improved Storm Bolters), but they move slowly at times, and every loss is a big deal. Just the way they should be...





I'm also on the lookout for more wargear options, to allow for more varied potential weapon loadouts.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:So by your reckoning, a baby's bones are the same size and strength as a fully-grown adult's?

That is a stupid comparison. An Ork fights from the day-- the hour, often the minute-- he is born. He is expected to take grievous injuries which a human would find lethal before he sees his first non-Ork, then recover fast enough to get into battle the next day, if not later that day.

A human child is not.

Their development is vastly different.

The age at which they start fighting DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL! Tau reach full mental and physical maturity at about ten years. What's your point?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:A Space Marine has multiple redundant vital organs... even if you manage to hit something vital, the Marine will still be fighting at full effectiveness.

Just like an Ork! I could do this all day.

Orks don't have two hearts, or three lungs, or a sus-an membrane, which all help SMs survive. +1 astartes.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Orks that are able to sustain a sh*tload of damage already have 2+ Wounds on their profile.

Ork Boyz don't have two wounds.

He's saying that the ones that ACTUALLY CAN take a lot of damage have 2 wounds.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:No

Yes.

No

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The no kill like overkill thing is more because they emit spores when they die, which means you need to burn the corpse.

No, that's not overkill, that's dealing with the body.

That's what he meant.

No it isn't. Even if you completely and utterly kill an Ork, destroy its head, destroy its heart, etc in a completely overklil way, he'll still spread spores. Using the flamer on the Ork isn't overkill, it's cleanup. It's more comparable to an apothecary going around with a reductor.

definition of overkill: Overkill is the use of excessive force or action that goes further than is necessary to achieve its goal, most commonly in acts of violence. Blowing off an orks head and then setting him on fire after IS excessive force=overkill

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:It's bulletproof actually.

*looks up deathwatch rules*
No it's not.

Yeah, it is. If you were to shoot an un-armoured astartes with an auto-snub in the rib-plate, the first thing that would happen is you would hear *ping*, next, the astartes would break you in half.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Melissia wrote:The T4 represents their toughness.

A marine taking hits and continuing to fight is represented by the hits not wounding them, IE, the T4. So a bolter shell hitting them has a good chance of not incapacitating them, whereas it stands a VERY good chance of incapacitating a human.

Then explain to me why an IG Company Commander is T3 with 3 Wounds.

Because balance dictates that independent/special characters are tougher than non-independent/special characters. In actual lore, the company commander is no tougher than the average veteran soldier, perhaps slightly tougher due to cybernetic implants... maybe, in some cases.

...are you even trying?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:It doesn't reflect them being about to take damage: it represents them being 8 feet tall.

Your analogy is nonsensical (as is the norm for your arguments). An elephant is not merely ~12% larger than a human being. AT BIRTH, an elephant weighs more than most fully adult human males. Even the overweight ones. An adult human male has about 3% of the mass of an adult male elephant.

There is no comparison, stop that.

There is perfect comparison. It is merely scale. And astartes are not ~12% bigger, they are ~33% bigger. A tall man is 6 feet. An average astartes is 8 feet tall. 2 feet difference=1/3 of 6 feet=33%. Scale is the best way to demonstrate a point.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:But I won't lower their WS or BS, as right now they're equal to a Lord Commissar, and just about right in comparison to many other 40k entities (in my opinion anyway)

A skilled comimssar can outfight a khornate berserker, I very much doubt that they can't also outfight a tactical marine who is less skilled in close combat than the berserker.

im2randomghgh wrote:The age at which they start fighting DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL!

I take it you haven't had any serious study of biology then, especially looking at development of animals.

Actually your entire post is nothing more than you simply living in denial and saying "nah nah nah I can't hear you" over and over again. Your fantasy world exists only in your head. Frankly, all of your points thus far have been utterly stupid, trite and nonsensical fanwank to the denigration of everything which is not an Astartes, and isn't worth my time.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:But I won't lower their WS or BS, as right now they're equal to a Lord Commissar, and just about right in comparison to many other 40k entities (in my opinion anyway)

A skilled comimssar can outfight a khornate berserker, I very much doubt that they can't also outfight a tactical marine who is less skilled in close combat than the berserker.

Do you honestly believe than any but the most talented and fortunate Commissar could outfight a Space Marine (let alone a Khorne Beserker)?!!! Marines spend every day of their (often centuries-long) lives training, studying and/or gaining battlefield experience. They're selected from only the most promising recruits, learn at a highly accelerated rate, and devote their entire lifespan to the mastery of combat in all its forms.

Only the very best and brightest un-augmented humans could hope to match or supersede a Space Marine in terms of martial skill.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The age at which they start fighting DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL!

I take it you haven't had any serious study of biology then, especially looking at development of animals.

Actually your entire post is nothing more than you simply living in denial and saying "nah nah nah I can't hear you" over and over again. Your fantasy world exists only in your head. Frankly, all of your points thus far have been utterly stupid, trite and nonsensical fanwank to the denigration of everything which is not an Astartes, and isn't worth my time.

And I take it that YOU haven't ever studied Biology particularly well. For your statement that Ork bones do not grow along with the Ork in question to be true, then you must accept that Orks cannot grow in size. Which is obviously not the case.



Most of your posts have spurred nothing but pointless, antagonistic bickering thus far; almost all of what you've asserted has been demonstratively false, and yet you seem determined to answer every disagreeable comment with either a misdirected rant about your beloved Orks, or with your own personal (obviously biased and provocative) opinions and condemnations, many of which are hypocritical to say the least. You are constantly leading the thread off-topic. I have made concessions and have listened to your complaints about gameplay and balance (removing Rending vs. vehicles, reducing high-end WS values, contemplating lower Strength characteristics, etc), but you will not hear anybody else out.

Lady, I don't care whether or not you feel inclined to be defensive, or are just stubborn as a f*cking mule... I'd appreciate it if you'd cool down and take an impartial look at the rules in the OP (which, by the way, you will NEVER have to abide by). Listen to what others are saying if you want to contribute to threads.

Melissia wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:But I won't lower their WS or BS, as right now they're equal to a Lord Commissar, and just about right in comparison to many other 40k entities (in my opinion anyway)

A skilled comimssar can outfight a khornate berserker, I very much doubt that they can't also outfight a tactical marine who is less skilled in close combat than the berserker.

Okay lets start off by putting this out there: astartes are physically on par with polar bears. A commissar would have trouble killing a polar bear without his gun. it is still do-able however. Now picture this: that grizzly bear has the best armour available, a fused rib plate, can spit acid, has armaments are equal or greater than yours, centuries of the finest training available, is immune to fear, has two hearts, three lungs, is smarter than you, has a pistol that can turn you into a pink mist, a chainsword, and is more nimble/agile/quick than you are, could be, and ever will be.

Now picture 1000 of them dropping from the sky on wings of fire.

Lord Commissar my ass.

@ I_am_a_spoon, +1

Yeah, all that I say is demonstratively false... to people like you who just want more marinewank at the expense of ignoring the rest of 40k.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Do you honestly believe than any but the most talented and fortunate Commissar could outfight a Space Marine (let alone a Khorne Beserker)?!!!

... IE, Lord Commissars.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:And I take it that YOU haven't ever studied Biology particularly well.

Better than you.

Orks DO grow... but if they had weak bone structure to begin with that means that they'd always have segments of weaker bone structure. Orks are tough, tough as-- actually tougher than-- Marines. That's how the fluff has always been. The occurrence of an Ork being seemingly mortally wounded and then being found on the battlefield again a few days later is so common that it's no longer a surprise when it happens. They really are that damned tough. They can survive things Marines cannot. That is specifically why people use "overkill" on Orks. Used on humans it's overkill. On Orks, it's just standard practice.



If you want to make rules that turn your favored army into the mary sue of the century that you can say "OMG WER THE BETS NOOEN CNA BAET US!1ELEVEN!", that's your prerogative. I am under no obligation to agree with your ideas by the rules of this forum. Don't worry, you can live with someone disagreeing with you

If you want to make rules that turn your favored army into the mary sue of the century that you can say "OMG WER THE BETS NOOEN CNA BAET US!1ELEVEN!", that's your prerogative. I am under no obligation to agree with your ideas by the rules of this forum. Don't worry, you can live with someone disagreeing with you

He isn't really doing that though. In his and his friend's minds (and other peoples) they see Space Marines as the toughest and strongest of humanity and want them to represent that. What's wrong with him trying to do it his own way.

The way I'm looking at this it isn't whether it's perfectly ~fluffy~ or not, it's whether or not they can produce the results in the game that they produce in the books.

I think what Mellisia is trying to say is that if Sm have such a boost, orks should have one too, but they disagree on whether or not they should be more tough. I will sat this though, have you ever seen a SM head on another SM's body? Why?

The Zoat wrote:I think what Mellisia is trying to say is that if Sm have such a boost, orks should have one too, but they disagree on whether or not they should be more tough.

I know that... Why do you think I said what I said?

I will sat this though, have you ever seen a SM head on another SM's body? Why?

Yeah but does every single Ork get his head put back onto another Ork's body when he loses it?

From what I know, no. Only the especially incredibly tough Orks survive getting "just" a limb cut off, you'd have to be a nob to be that strong.

Looks like physical attributes are getting the most attention with the arguments. I'd had to second the motion of Space Marine > Lord Commisar. When Space Marines arn't fighting, they're training, and getting ripped as hell.

Goddard wrote:Looks like physical attributes are getting the most attention with the arguments. I'd had to second the motion of Space Marine > Lord Commisar. When Space Marines arn't fighting, they're training, and getting ripped as hell.

Yeah, isn't there a thing somewhere saying their "muscles are as strong as steel, and their bones adamintine."

Yeah, in C:SM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, orks don't have vital organs. (don't no where i heard it)

They just have this mush stuff to do the job of all the vital organs.

Also, orks don't have vital organs. (don't no where i heard it)

They just have this mush stuff to do the job of all the vital organs.

Seriously? That's awesome!

If that's really it I guess it can be justified how they are stronger than a Space Marine.

Good idea but not rending.....I bit tooo much

grayspark wrote:He isn't really doing that though. In his and his friend's minds (and other peoples) they see Space Marines as the toughest and strongest of humanity and want them to represent that. What's wrong with him trying to do it his own way.

There's nothing outright "wrong" with trying to make your favorite faction an overpowered piece of work that contradicts the lore of the setting you're using. But there's also no obligation for me to agree or even respect it. Respect the person sure... but not his ideas.

This is supposed top be a codex that allies with Ig (Ie not to be used on it's own) and is to represent how Marines are preented in the fluff, which it does quite well.
Yet you seem to just be in a mood to contradict everything said and if you want to the same for Orks go do it in another thread not his own.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:This is supposed top be a codex that allies with Ig (Ie not to be used on it's own) and is to represent how Marines are preented in the fluff, which it does quite well.

No it doesn't.

My entire argument is that these contradict the fluff. It DOESN'T represent Marines as they exist in the fluff. It just represents them as they exist in a blatant fanboy's head. All of these stats would be changes to current 40k fluff, not corrections.

Meh. I'm done. Do what you want, but getting mad just because someone objects to you blatantly going against the fluff isn't reasonable.

Melissia wrote: I am under no obligation to agree with your ideas by the rules of this forum. Don't worry, you can live with someone disagreeing with you

Hearing that from Melissia is the funniest thing I have heard all day...

And by "all but the most skilled commissar" I am pretty sure he means REALLY special commissars, like Gaunt for example, since Gaunt actually has killed astartes, but when he attacked one from the front, he only survived due to reinforcements...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:This is supposed top be a codex that allies with Ig (Ie not to be used on it's own) and is to represent how Marines are preented in the fluff, which it does quite well.

No it doesn't.

My entire argument is that these contradict the fluff. It DOESN'T represent Marines as they exist in the fluff. It just represents them as they exist in a blatant fanboy's head. All of these stats would be changes to current 40k fluff, not corrections.

Meh. I'm done. Do what you want, but getting mad just because someone objects to you blatantly going against the fluff isn't reasonable.

hehe...reasonable...

Anyways, for the fluff, it absolutely does NOT contradict it. If you have read Storm of Iron, then you'll remember how a terminator went 1-on-1 with a titan and won. Or how one SM's hatred was so strong it ripped a hole in reality. SM=Ninja.

That's what a Lord Commissar IS. That's why GW gave the Lord Commissar WS5/BS5, because they are THAT damned good.