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I think people are starting to take this a bit too far.

Only really keen and experienced players know the details of the different SM chapters to know that a Space Wolf Long Fang "officially" should have a beard and a tail on his helmet.

I'm quite surprised that such knowledgeable players could be fooled by painting your Space Wolf troops in green rather than grey.

Methinks you doth protest too much.

If people dislike codex hopping, and like converted armies, properly painted armies, and so on, that's fine. I lean that way myself.

We don't need to demonise people who just want to put variant helmets on their Black Templars.

It has always been allowed that you can take a Marines codex and make your own chapter with your own colours.

Red- Except, of course, that many Space Wolf units only have regular SM kits to represent them.

Bear in mind also that GW has explicitly sanctioned using a given SM chapter's rules or the generic ones, regardless of paint scheme. At least in the previous codex, and I think in this one too.

Now you're making stuff up. I've never said anything about paint jobs or squad markings.

Except of course, you did:

Honestly, I'd like to see colours and iconography enforced as much as weapons as a WYSIWYG option.

Gitsplitta wrote:My standard is thus...

If I look at your models, assuming I'm vaguely familiar with your codex and it's capabilities... can I understand what I'm looking at? Can I recognize your units and their war gear so that I can make good battlefield decisions while our game is going on?

If the answer to that is "yes", then any other issues I chalk off to artistry, personal preference, or laziness at worst.

If the answer is "no", then I have an issue for the TO.

THIS is what I'm trying to say. =p

Dayve: Your conversion would be fine ---- because you converted it. Regular marines don't have halberds or storm bolters, so seeing a unit of those on the table gives me pause to at least ask what they are. On the flip side, if they're armed with regular bolters and are tactical marines being counted as a GK unit with halberds and storm bolters....I'm going to have an issue when I drive up 26" away and park an AV10 open-topped vehicle ready for a next turn assault, and you move up 6" and proceed to light me up with storm bolters.

Visually identifiable is the point of this thread, and my concern of a new Marine Dex that isn't interchangeable with the other codexes for visually correct models - when I'm not sure what something has, I'll ask. But if something is obvious...and just being proxied, then I have an issue. Like the Bright Lances counting as Scatter Lasers. If Smitty pulls my Necrons this weekend at the GT...one of those weapons is potentially dangerous to my army, one is not. But in all likelihood, I'm going to be inebriated, and not be sitting on enough mental acuity to keep track of proxies and count as armies.

Gitsplitta wrote:My standard is thus...

If I look at your models, assuming I'm vaguely familiar with your codex and it's capabilities... can I understand what I'm looking at? Can I recognize your units and their war gear so that I can make good battlefield decisions while our game is going on?

If the answer to that is "yes", then any other issues I chalk off to artistry, personal preference, or laziness at worst.

If the answer is "no", then I have an issue for the TO.

Don't forget cheaposity, my primary reason for replacing any model for another. That being said, I'm in agreement with Gitsplitta on this topic. I'm not concerned about opponents codex hopping with the same-colored marines, as long as I can recognize what I'm fighting.

I once used my eldar force to sub for wolves in a friendly game with no objections: Reapers as ML long fangs, DA's for bolter grey hunters, Scorpions for MoTW, Banshees for PW marines, Dragons for Melta marines. Asurmen was my Logan and exarchs counted as his wolf guard. Harlequins as wolf scouts. The person I played against had no problems recognizing anything since it was all color coded (skittles eldar) but the TO for my gaming club said that it would confuse too many people. Okaaaayyyy...?

I understand that everyone has their own level of tolerance for WYSIWYG and that the primary reason it's there is not for "professional" competitive play, but the ruleset as a whole fails in this regard. I bear this in mind and try to keep things as simple and direct as I can for my opponent if I'm using any proxy or counts-as. Can they easily recognize the alternate model for what it's intended? If not, is there someway I can make the model closer to the original?

Finally, the Rule of Cool has precedence in my book to all other considerations. Am I impressed by what I see to the point that I'd consider making one for my own army? If so, you get a free ride, no matter what differences the alternate has compared to the original.

Dashofpepper wrote: But in all likelihood, I'm going to be inebriated, and not be sitting on enough mental acuity to keep track of proxies and count as armies.

This.

What is reasonable for a casual game on a Saturday afternoon is not what is reasonable for game 5 of a 3 day tourney weekend with lots of drinking, very little sleep and mental and physical exhaustion. Those minor mental burdens add up and puts your opponent at a disadvantage. You should never burden your opponent unfairly, and you never have the ability to decide what is fair and unfair.

So for tourneys, if the rule is WYSIWYG, then you should try to meet it, and the TO will decide 'what is fair'. If you don't feel confident in your standard ask the TO.

I feel showing up to an event with the express intent of being exempt from rules because you don't think it is a big deal is a bad attitude to have.

I once used my eldar force to sub for wolves in a friendly game with no objections: Reapers as ML long fangs, DA's for bolter grey hunters, Scorpions for MoTW, Banshees for PW marines, Dragons for Melta marines. Asurmen was my Logan and exarchs counted as his wolf guard. Harlequins as wolf scouts. The person I played against had no problems recognizing anything since it was all color coded (skittles eldar) but the TO for my gaming club said that it would confuse too many people. Okaaaayyyy...?

It is confusing, I would be very upset if I faced an eldar armyw ith eldar weapons using space wolves rules at a tourney that explicitly required WYSIWYG. You shouldn't expect to have rules ignored for you nor should you be allowed to burden opponents.

That is why the event has rules... Your TO was being diplomatic that your proxies would not be welcome at an event he runs and you 'mock' him by trivializing your opponents valid concerns.

nkelsch wrote:That is why the event has rules... Your TO was being diplomatic that your proxies would not be welcome at an event he runs and you 'mock' him by trivializing your opponents valid concerns.

No, he wasn't particularly diplomatic, but that's a different story. The only guidelines for use of models in league play are that they must be GW models. All of which mine were. I took the time to make sure that he was okay with what I planned to do and he wasn't so I brought my necron army with Immortals converted from Warriors and a destroyer Lord made to look like a wraith.

However, if I was confronted with the same situation, I would take it in stride, ask questions so I was sure what was what, and take quick notes if I needed to. I'm provided with an army list from my opponent and can easily note what units are what on said list.

Of course, I don't consider this to be a challenge intellectually, but I understand how it can be to others and this, truth be told, was the TO's primary concern - whether the other members of the club were quick enough of wit to make the connections.

Frazzled wrote:

Now you're making stuff up. I've never said anything about paint jobs or squad markings.

Except of course, you did:

Honestly, I'd like to see colours and iconography enforced as much as weapons as a WYSIWYG option.

Oh, so I did. That's what I get for not being clear. I didn't mean that you can only play Space Wolves if you're painted as Space Wolves, but that if you're painted as Ultramarines, your opponent should have a reasonable expectation that you're actually playing Codex:Space Marines, and not Codex: Blood Angels. If you bring a fully-painted chapter that's well known (one of the founding chapters, one of the chapters with its own rulebook) then I think that using a different codex is confusing for your opponent, in exactly the same way that using the wrong weapon would be.

I did not claim that "you have to have the correct paint jobs, down to squad marks," in order to be WYSIWYG, which is what you seem to be presenting as my view. It's not.

Redbeard wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Now you're making stuff up. I've never said anything about paint jobs or squad markings.

Except of course, you did:

Honestly, I'd like to see colours and iconography enforced as much as weapons as a WYSIWYG option.

Oh, so I did. That's what I get for not being clear. I didn't mean that you can only play Space Wolves if you're painted as Space Wolves, but that if you're painted as Ultramarines, your opponent should have a reasonable expectation that you're actually playing Codex:Space Marines, and not Codex: Blood Angels. If you bring a fully-painted chapter that's well known (one of the founding chapters, one of the chapters with its own rulebook) then I think that using a different codex is confusing for your opponent, in exactly the same way that using the wrong weapon would be.

I did not claim that "you have to have the correct paint jobs, down to squad marks," in order to be WYSIWYG, which is what you seem to be presenting as my view. It's not.

I think we're in agreement actually for a tournament. If your guys are painted/bitted up as space pups, I'd have grumbles if you said they were BAs. Now if they were a DIY chapter I wouldn't care, but if you have a direct codex force I'd have more of an issue. Its stiull WYSIWYG (if its appropriately done) but I'd call out the Loser card on that.

There was a recent large tournament that a player played Crimson Fists as Blood Angels, and no one minded.

And for more the internet outrage, if you're going to throw down the "I have the right to a good game and not having to remember what all your stuff is" card, yet also complain about being sleep deprived and inebriated, well I'll have to turn that card against you and say:

I spent alot of money and drove an awful long distance and invested alot of personal capital (opportunity cost or otherwise) to not have to play a game against someone that's not measuring distances in fingers of liquor.

That's fine for a casual game but not a tournament game.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

nkelsch wrote:That is why the event has rules... Your TO was being diplomatic that your proxies would not be welcome at an event he runs and you 'mock' him by trivializing your opponents valid concerns.

No, he wasn't particularly diplomatic, but that's a different story. The only guidelines for use of models in league play are that they must be GW models. All of which mine were. I took the time to make sure that he was okay with what I planned to do and he wasn't so I brought my necron army with Immortals converted from Warriors and a destroyer Lord made to look like a wraith.

However, if I was confronted with the same situation, I would take it in stride, ask questions so I was sure what was what, and take quick notes if I needed to. I'm provided with an army list from my opponent and can easily note what units are what on said list.

Of course, I don't consider this to be a challenge intellectually, but I understand how it can be to others and this, truth be told, was the TO's primary concern - whether the other members of the club were quick enough of wit to make the connections.

See, this condescending insulting attitude is part of the problem... You don't have to see it as a problem for you. This is a very visual game and people make snap judgements and tactical based on visual queues... WYSIWYG is there for a reason. Everything that forces someone to look at notes, take notes, read an army list, remember, have something explained, asked to be explained is a BURDEN. The event requires it, show up willing to play by the rules or go home. Saying 'GW models' allows total army proxies is absurd on its face and doesn't give you much credit to allow a TO to let your example fly.

You want to use proxies in informal play with opponents consent? knock yourself out... If the event requires WYSIWYG then take your proxies elsewhere. Don't assume your opponent is mentally deficient or some other way of saying 'dumb' because they don't want to deal with your proxies in an event where everyone but you showed up prepared to play by the rules.

Eldar as Space Wolves have no reason to exist and are even a stretch for casual play. I am not even sure I would want to spend 2 hours messing around with that level of total army proxy as it simply isn't fun. I don't think I would be sad not interacting with you for 2 hours given the unreasonableness of your request to proxy the entire army. It would take a lot of convincing (like playtesting or some other example) for me to basically waste my time and sacrifice my experience so you could proxy an entire army. If this was just a pick up game, I could just play someone else who isn't doing a total army proxy and still have fun.

I spent alot of money and drove an awful long distance and invested alot of personal capital (opportunity cost or otherwise) to not have to play a game against someone that's not measuring distances in fingers of liquor.

If the event has rules against being intoxicated or hung over, then complain to the TO. The event has rules against proxies and NON-WYSIWYG armies burdening opponents then you should follow those rules.

I am not sure that your opponent impacting himself burdens you... People can burden themselves all they want... they shouldn't unfairly burden their opponent.

Now BO, that does burden opponents, which is why many TOs require bathing as a rule

whitedragon wrote:There was a recent large tournament that a player played Crimson Fists as Blood Angels, and no one minded.

And for more the internet outrage, if you're going to throw down the "I have the right to a good game and not having to remember what all your stuff is" card, yet also complain about being sleep deprived and inebriated, well I'll have to turn that card against you and say:

I spent alot of money and drove an awful long distance and invested alot of personal capital (opportunity cost or otherwise) to not have to play a game against someone that's not measuring distances in fingers of liquor.

That's fine for a casual game but not a tournament game.

I don't drink much at these large events. I'd still be annoyed by having to remember that an obvious bright lance is actually a scatter laser.

Janthkin wrote:

whitedragon wrote:There was a recent large tournament that a player played Crimson Fists as Blood Angels, and no one minded.

And for more the internet outrage, if you're going to throw down the "I have the right to a good game and not having to remember what all your stuff is" card, yet also complain about being sleep deprived and inebriated, well I'll have to turn that card against you and say:

I spent alot of money and drove an awful long distance and invested alot of personal capital (opportunity cost or otherwise) to not have to play a game against someone that's not measuring distances in fingers of liquor.

That's fine for a casual game but not a tournament game.

I don't drink much at these large events. I'd still be annoyed by having to remember that an obvious bright lance is actually a scatter laser.

I don't drink much either while playing. I had a beer on the last round of the TT to calm my splitting headache, but that was it. I think we've moved past the Bright Lance as Scatter Laser bit, though, and now we're claiming foul on DIY marine chapters and codex hopping.

Frazzled wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Polonius wrote:So, by your logic, you can't play a successor chapter without having the appropriate bitz? So, even if I built a blood angel army from the ground up, if I don't use BA bitz or symbolism my army isn't WYSIWYG?

Not by my logic, by the logic inherent in the game, and the WYSIWYG rules.

You'll have to show what tournament ever defined WYSIWYG as such, otherwise you're proferring your opinion as fact.

Adepticon 2011 Model Policy, found at http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011modelpolicy.pdf , states:

"Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the particular choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game."

A SM Devestator with a Missile Launcher is not a Long Fang. He does not have a beard, wolf tails, wolf pelt, wolf claws, or ANY of the unique items that make a Long Fang a Long Fang and not a Devestator. He does not have a shoulder pad with angel wings and a teardrop, a helmet with a teardrop, a torso with angel wings and/or a teardrop, legs with a teardrop, a bolter with angel wings and/or a teardrop, or a backpack with a teardrop. If he had one of those, I wouldn't mind you calling him a blood angel. But none of those? Then he's a Codex: Space Marines Devestator.

GW sells upgrade sprues for various SM Chapters. These include bits made specifically for modelling your SM as that chapter.

So yes, the Tactical Marine box may be a starting point for a non C:SM chapter, but they aren't the ending point.

Also, I'm the one who mentioned chapter markings. I consider WYSIWYG to only apply to modeling and not to painting. However, there are GW modeled bits for all of the SM chapters that GW has published with non-generic C:SM rules.

Adepticon 2011 Model Policy, found at http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011modelpolicy.pdf , states:

"Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the particular choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game."

****That doesn't support your argument. It supports mine. It says nothing about oconography. bits etc. ONLY weapons/options. DUHHH!
Thanks though.

Frazzled wrote:Adepticon 2011 Model Policy, found at http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011modelpolicy.pdf , states:

"Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the particular choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game."

****That doesn't support your argument. It supports mine. It says nothing about oconography. bits etc. ONLY weapons/options. DUHHH!
Thanks though.

I'm fairly sure he's focusing on the bolded portion.

It also doesn't say anything about them not being orks.

Do I need to find where it says you cannot use orks as Space Marines? I can't - it's so obvious that it isn't written anywhere.

What we have is GW's site. With separate sections for Space Wolves and Space Marines and Blood Angels. Some models are found in more than one section (rhinos, for example). But others are not. You won't find Space Marine Tactical Squads in the Space Wolf section of the GW website. That implies that they're not "appropriate models" for a Space Wolf army.

Redbeard wrote:It also doesn't say anything about them not being orks.

Do I need to find where it says you cannot use orks as Space Marines? I can't - it's so obvious that it isn't written anywhere.

What we have is GW's site. With separate sections for Space Wolves and Space Marines and Blood Angels. Some models are found in more than one section (rhinos, for example). But others are not. You won't find Space Marine Tactical Squads in the Space Wolf section of the GW website. That implies that they're not "appropriate models" for a Space Wolf army.

OT but I'd love to see an ork force done up as marines replete with looted and kitbashed armor.

He might be but fortunately most major events aren't playing to the lowest common denominator. They figure that with the exchange of lists, the name of the codex your opponent is playing, and properly equipped (read: Weapons) that 99.9% of people involved in their event would be able to easily identify a Marine model as what it's suppose to represent.

On a side note rule of cool applies just as much at Adepticon. Just check with them first. If they feel it'll work but is slightly confusing worst they'll do is make you bring name tokens for the units

Janthkin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Adepticon 2011 Model Policy, found at http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011modelpolicy.pdf , states:

"Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the particular choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game."

****That doesn't support your argument. It supports mine. It says nothing about oconography. bits etc. ONLY weapons/options. DUHHH!
Thanks though.

I'm fairly sure he's focusing on the bolded portion.

however that still doesn't help. Jump packs help pick out an assault squad. Icon on the shoulderplate's irrelevant unless you have great hallway vision and a talent for missing the obvious.

@Frazz

Here is the blood angel one I was talking about:
http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-5782-5813-0-Blood-Orks.htm

Interesting.

I've used the following;




...as;

TH/SS Terminators
GK Terminators
Grey Knights

I've used the Emperor as;

Terminator in Libby Armor
Grey Knight Grandmaster
Lysander


.....all at Adepticon. I explained to my opponent each time what they were and have received full sports each and every game I've played over 3 years. Most people----don't give a toss provided you explain it to them. Internet arguments don't usually represent real life.

AoE pwons all. Quick someone get him a trophy!

Linky to this army?

AgeOfEgos wrote:.....all at Adepticon. I explained to my opponent each time what they were and have received full sports each and every game I've played over 3 years. Most people----don't give a toss provided you explain it to them and your minis are ridiculously awesome...

FTFY

Also, I'm not a big fan of that Ork army. It is creative and pretty and I like it, but I don't like it from a tournament standpoint. Orks with 'eavy armor do not look like Power Armored BA to me. It just forces an additional layer of processing onto the game and can lead to bad feelings. You want to play that for fun? Sure, I'll play it any day of the week, just not at a tourney.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as much as I like AoE's minis... Kind of stretching it for the Emp to be Lysander. No SS, no TH... I can get GKGM or Librarian with the right wargear, but Sword and Claw don't equal SSTH.

Redbeard wrote:Do I need to find where it says you cannot use orks as Space Marines? I can't - it's so obvious that it isn't written anywhere.

Some people use orks for Space Marine forces....and you can't deny they look awesome.

pretre wrote:Also, I'm not a big fan of that Ork army. It is creative and pretty and I like it, but I don't like it from a tournament standpoint. Orks with 'eavy armor do not look like Power Armored BA to me. It just forces an additional layer of processing onto the game and can lead to bad feelings. You want to play that for fun? Sure, I'll play it any day of the week, just not at a tourney.

I'd agree. My first thought is not "Cool Blood Angels army," it's "Cool ork army! And what's with the fighta-bomba in a no FW event?"

Carnage43 wrote:
Some people use orks for Space Marine forces....and you can't deny they look awesome.

\
Now those, on the other hand, look like orks in power armor and I have no problem with them. They are both awesome AND WYSIWYG from the looks of it.

whitedragon wrote:
And for more the internet outrage, if you're going to throw down the "I have the right to a good game and not having to remember what all your stuff is" card, yet also complain about being sleep deprived and inebriated, well I'll have to turn that card against you and say:

I spent alot of money and drove an awful long distance and invested alot of personal capital (opportunity cost or otherwise) to not have to play a game against someone that's not measuring distances in fingers of liquor.

That's fine for a casual game but not a tournament game.

You're creating cause and effect where there is none. Stop.

You have no basis for saying, "You drinking is negatively impacting my game."
I have basis for saying, "You being too lazy to model your stuff to follow the rules is negatively impacting my game."

I drink (and share) because I'm a happy drunk. I joke more, get along with people better, am more sociable...and MOST IMPORTANTLY...I let more shenanigans slide and deal with poor sports better.

If someone is creeping extra distance to try getting shots on me or to get into assault range and I'm sober, I call them on it, and either offer my tactical template for them to place on the table, or ask them to start putting their tape measure on the table. If I'm drunk, I giggle to myself because I know its not going to help them anyway.

If someone is being sullen because they're getting tabled, if I'm sober I feel guilty for making them feel inadequate. If I'm drunk, I try getting them drunk too or at least to joke with me. I run into this often. I'd bet that about nine in every ten wins is tabling my opponent.

When I measure, I put my tape measure down *on* the table, starting at the base of my model and extending however far I'm moving. I leave my tape measure there, move my model up precisely the correct distance, then pick the tape measure up from the table. It has never resulted in a problem - sober or not. I encourage my opponents to use the same method so no "eyeballing" distances happens - which people do quite sober.

THe only time liquor has affected a game of mine, I lost - and my opponent had a good time playing and had no complaints.

Frazzled wrote:
Linky to this army?

About finished with it--then I'll do an army profile on all of them. Thanks though!

pretre wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:.....all at Adepticon. I explained to my opponent each time what they were and have received full sports each and every game I've played over 3 years. Most people----don't give a toss provided you explain it to them and your minis are ridiculously awesome...

FTFY

Also, I'm not a big fan of that Ork army. It is creative and pretty and I like it, but I don't like it from a tournament standpoint. Orks with 'eavy armor do not look like Power Armored BA to me. It just forces an additional layer of processing onto the game and can lead to bad feelings. You want to play that for fun? Sure, I'll play it any day of the week, just not at a tourney.

I think you bring up the hidden point here---that no one has really touched on. Most people are perfectly fine with Counts As provided it's done for the right reasons (and looks cool). Which lends me to believe confusion has less to do with the issue than many believe. I used this example in the Mosh Pit (which is a wonder filled world---a Wonka Chocolate Factory for adult war gamers);



The way I view it....for those who don't care..


WYSIWYG exists for one purpose---to eliminate confusion. Given that, think on this;

One Ork player shows up with a 10 man differentiated Nob squad. They are all converted waiving beer mugs and gretchin as weapons. He has numbers on their base (1-10). He hands me a sheet that has a numbered list like;

1 Nob with Big Choppa
2 Nob with Big Choppa, Boss Pole
3 Nob with Power Klaw
etc.

....with a wound column (1, 2)

I can clearly look at the sheet, glance at his numbered bases and tell exactly what Nob was what. He keeps track of wounds on his with a marker and I can do the same---and quite clearly see who has what wounds when---with a glance.



Another Ork player shows up with a 10 man differentiated Nob squad. They are all WYSIWYG---however due to non-glaring differences between Orks---it's difficult to discern what exact model has a Kombi-scorcha as opposed to a Shoota or Twin Linked Shoota---or carrying an ammo runt.




So one of those examples is WYSIWYG---the other is not-----but the first example is more conducive to eliminating confusion during the game.

So the question shouldn't be; "Is WYSIWYG important"----but "Is communication important?" Because honestly...if someone explains what unit is what---and asks me to play this army during a WYSIWYG tournament;



My answer is hell yes! Please let me line up against that beauty and snap some photos!