Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

Grey Templar wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Nope,

a Marine in a Jump Pack is half a ton.


you might be thinking of Terminator armor.

Coolyo294 wrote:Now I can just imagine a squad of Space Marines spycrabbing their way through a human sized bunker.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:a space marine only weighs 700-800 pounds.

that is a considerable amount of weight, but it isn't impossable for human buildings to support. I moved a 600 pound cabinet up some stairs, with 4 other guys of course . another few hundred pounds certaintly wouldn't have broken the stairs.

Space Marines can also crouch and walk sideways if there is a clearence problem.

I heard somewhere that spacemarines weigh a ton. Pretty sure it was in a codex or somthing, but dont take my word on it.

Nope,

a Marine in a Jump Pack is half a ton.


you might be thinking of Terminator armor.

How dose a SM in a jump pack weigh less then one without?

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.

Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

Jollydevil wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Lyzin Locrian wrote:They don't have to, they don't even need to use a meltagun. By simply placing krak grenades or melta bombs at proper locations on the bunker they can collapse the entire thing and kill everyone inside. So really, it is not a very good defense against Space Marines.

How exactly are they going to use krak grenades to blow through hundreds of metres of re-inforced concrete? An underground bunker with long access tunnels that are very narrow makes a mockery of the Astartes.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Where does it say marines cannot climb stairs?

I could have sworn in Nightbringer, Uriel was in the nosebleed seats in the Pavonis Congress room.

A Marine in armour weighs a lot. Normal stairs would collapse under the weight. Stairs in the 41st Millenium are made of Handwavium, so it doesn't matter.

As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.
Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Kaldor wrote:

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Really?

I'm talking about deliberately small bunker access tunnels. Say, 24" wide, 24" high. And maybe a hundred metres or more long, with bends and twists. Through reinforced concrete. A marine would have trouble fitting through a regular sized doorway, he'd have to turn sideways and duck, and waddle through. Theres no way he's fitting through a narrow tunnel or corridor, and he's not just going to punch through metres of reinforce bunker material. He'd have enough trouble navigating through buildings built for regular humans, let alone one built to deliberately keep ovesized enemies out.

Kaldor wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:As to the cramped hallway thing, you REALLY overlooked something. Space MARINES were originally creted with boarding enemy ships in mind, and fighting in narrow corridors is actually where their advantage is the most pronounced. Only a few lasguns can be brought to bear in such cramped confines.

Did it ever occur to you to ASK yourself why termies auto_win on space hulks?

lol, I didn't overlook anything. A marine simply can't fit through a small tunnel, where smaller warriors could.

Kaldor wrote:

Jollydevil wrote: Space marimes dont really need to fit in close corriders anyways, theyll just smash through the walls.

im2randomghgh wrote:

That. plus even small corridors are almost always big enough for two men abreast, meaning 1 astartes.

Really?

I'm talking about deliberately small bunker access tunnels. Say, 24" wide, 24" high. And maybe a hundred metres or more long, with bends and twists. Through reinforced concrete. A marine would have trouble fitting through a regular sized doorway, he'd have to turn sideways and duck, and waddle through. Theres no way he's fitting through a narrow tunnel or corridor, and he's not just going to punch through metres of reinforce bunker material. He'd have enough trouble navigating through buildings built for regular humans, let alone one built to deliberately keep ovesized enemies out.

moarmoarmoar wrote:It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor,

Toastedandy wrote:

moarmoarmoar wrote:It takes an average of 57 Lasrifle shots to just WOUND a space marine in power armor,

Really? My marines lose too lamegun fire alot

IRC, it takes about 36 shots too down a marine with feel no pain.

Where does the 57 come from?

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
Very strong. If I'm reading about a Space Marine, or a squad or even Chapter of Space Marines, I don't want to know about that one guy who got blown apart by the sniper with a lasgun and alot of luck. I want to read about a squad descending on high on jump-packs into a large group and ripping them apart with chainsword, combat knife and bolter, or whatever the hell else they've got. I want to hear about the Space Marine who climbed a Carnifex and slammed his chainsword through the top of it's head (The Assault Marine sync-kill in DoWII), not that guy who's armor wasn't properly maintained, failed, and he took a round straight through his brain.

Admittedly, I am a Space Marine 'fanboi'. I legitimately enjoy their fluff (Coming from a DnD background, I always enjoyed the crusading knight, although I enjoyed the powerful Mage more, and the Marines satisfy both those), and find them far more fascinating than anything else out there in the Warhammer Universe (Although I do enjoy the other aspects, just not as much).

On the question of how strong I -think- Space Marines are in a comparison to the Imperial Guard (Based on fluff, not tabletop):

It depends on the regiment, the situation, and far too many other things for me to give a flat number.

In a straight out firefight? It would depend on the regiment, and the training. If it's a regiment of unseasoned men, or men with no real training...a single marine could probably easily take a couple of squads no problem. I imagine there would be a severe breakdown in disciplined fire as that 7+ foot tall guy in massive armor you've been trying to bring down for the last hundred meters or so just keeps on coming, while blowing your friends and squadmates apart all around you with a gun that he totes around in one hand but it looks like it would take two for you to even lift, let alone fire, and a roaring chainsword in the other hand. A regiment of seasoned men trained from a young age (I.E Cadians)? Probably a squad, maybe slightly more. Their fire would be all around better, and I doubt they'd lose too much discipline while the rest of the squad went down, but they are still kicking around a lasgun which doesn't have a large chance of doing anything against ceramite, against a moving target who can probably read their shots quite well...and once he makes close-combat it's all over.

Pitting one man against an indeterminate amount of guardsmen in a city-sprawl over a longer period of time? Once again, it depends on the regiment and the length and depth of their training, but I'd say at least 30-40 men no matter the regiment for a rank and file Astartes. Running around picking off small groups, weakening morale.....even if at the beginning he's picking off stragglers from patrols, that guy who needs to take a piss, that shot from the window 500m down the road and he's gone before you even get close....the more mounting deaths, the greater the apprehension becomes, the easier job he has of it against disheartened and dis-spirited men. Some regiments would obviously fare better than others, but I think even Cadians/Mordians/Catachans/etc. can feel fear.

Of course, these numbers change again if you place a squad against a set amount of Guardsmen, the ratio going up, and even more if it's a company against a regiment.

On the question of why would the Imperium train Astartes if they're only the stand-up equal of 10-20 well-trained Guardsmen?

There's numerous reasons.

First, they're training someone to the point where they can guarantee they won't run in fear, they won't lose potency as the enemy approaches, they won't lose their minds fighting daemons and other horrors....and they're giving all this training to a man who was already the pinnacle of human physical perfection and has been further enhanced into a super-human killing machine, a killing machine who can withstand things that would kill a normal human, get up and keep fighting. Then they're training this killing machine to an absurd level where it can make shots we would deem impossible, and kill a man in a single well placed blow with a fist.

Then they're giving these guys who will stand their ground and fight everytime all their best toys. They're giving them the best armor, the best weapons, great ships....further enhancing their bad-assery, and just what they're capable of.

Then, finally, they're training their minds. They're using those enhanced cognitive functions of their minds to teach them tactics that would baffle 99.9% of Imperial Commanders, and how to process battlefield information in a heartbeat and plan the most efficient use of resources. They're training them in shock tactics, in using a single squad inserted in the right position to fulfill an objective that would take hundreds of guardsmen, to fall out of the sky in drop-pods/jump-packs/Thunderhawks etc. that will get them past most conventional air-defenses and sow havoc in the middle of an enemy camp, slaughtering large portions of the force before they even begin to respond.....they're being trained in tactics that use Astartes in such a way that it doesn't matter if they could only take 10 or so in a standup firefight...the entire strikeforce is hitting on section of the line and hitting it fast, punching through and wiping it out before the rest of the force can even respond...and then moving in as the line falls apart.

They are the scalpel to the Imperial Guards Hammer. You can beat a man to death with your fists but it takes alot less effort and is alot more efficient to open up the jugular, any other major artery or any major organ, and alot quicker with less damage to yourself.