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Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So I created my own mechanic, "Fury of the Dark Gods", which allows the Bad Guys to roll extra damage when they roll 10s, just like the Good Guys.

Still... I am, personally, of the opinion that the fluff Marines make better characters than the table-top Marines, which are given stats in line with a game that is meant to be more-or-less balanced within itself, so that other armies are viable options.

That said? A single Marine can dish out destruction like a single, over-excited cat. Never underestimate a ticked-off feline and its paws of fury. Thousands have died in the last twenty minutes alone.

Psienesis wrote:

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So I created my own mechanic, "Fury of the Dark Gods", which allows the Bad Guys to roll extra damage when they roll 10s, just like the Good Guys.

Still... I am, personally, of the opinion that the fluff Marines make better characters than the table-top Marines, which are given stats in line with a game that is meant to be more-or-less balanced within itself, so that other armies are viable options.

That said? A single Marine can dish out destruction like a single, over-excited cat. Never underestimate a ticked-off feline and its paws of fury. Thousands have died in the last twenty minutes alone.

Unless a dog comes by and eats it.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Not in hordes. I would never expect a single Guardsmen, even 5, to be able to do any true damage to an SM before he reaches them. Maybe take a few gouges out of the ceramite.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

a bolt magazine holds around 30 rounds. marines can carry several of these.

they aren't supposed to be bogged down in static warfare and get resupplied often.

biccat wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

I actually I wonder how much it cost to train a SM. They seem to do most of that themselves. They also seem to craft an maintain there own equipment. Almost like they are a self sustaining force.

Space Marines are basically self sustaining with some minor reliance on the Ad Mech for certain equipment.

Space Marine chapters with homeworlds usually manufacture their own ammunition, PA, and certain vehicles.

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

Who is to say he'll use his bolter? He'd want to get into CC as fast as possible, its where he has a real advantage.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Not in hordes. I would never expect a single Guardsmen, even 5, to be able to do any true damage to an SM before he reaches them. Maybe take a few gouges out of the ceramite.

The problem is there isnt' even the possibility of hitting unarmored joints, eyes, etc. A guardsmen whose a half decent shot with a coulpe seconds to fire a burst should have at least a chance of hitting something like that, such as the groin joints, neck, waist where the leg plate meets the chestplate, backs of the legs, elbows, eyes, armpits, etc, any one of which theoretically could inflict a lethal shot on even a Space Marine (lasbolt cutting under the unarmored arm joint through to the internal organs for instance, or hitting the neck and puncturing through) even if such damage isn't likely.

A fire team (5ish) of guardsmen unloading on a Space Marine at close range should really stand a good chance of doing something nasty to him. Power armor has weaknesses. Unloading multiple lasrifles/autoguns at close range on automatic fire into the center mass of a Space Marine probably isn't going to leave him in much of a state to continue. He may still be alive, his armor may even be relatively intact, but he's probably got all sorts of damage to the ribcage/internal organs and musculature.


Being completely immune to anything but a full squad or a platoon is more than a wee bit silly, especially because nobody would possibly say the same thing about say, Sororitas in power armor or Tau Crisis suits, Striking Scorpions, Tau Stealth Suits,Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns, or DE Incubi, all of which wear similar protection, are as phsyically tough or both. An Astartes enhanced physiology doesn't make them immune to bullets or las bolts, just less likely to be incapacitated killed, a lasbolt to the head will still likely kill a Space Marine for instance if they don't have their helmet on, and a shot through the neck joint or eye will likely kill them just as dead as a guardsmen would be.

Psienesis wrote:

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.

Actually, by the book, it is.

So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

I think its the GMs call to allow enemies to inflict righteous fury at all, although I think the new version of it in Black Crusade is probably better balanced.

As for a SM vs 5 guardsmen, I wouldn't think the SM would just rush straight at them (unless its a berserker), but I guess if the SM did, they might be in trouble.

It is a bit silly that some of the weapons in DH/DW can't even harm a space marine, heh.

daedalus-templarius wrote:How many guardsmen can 1 deathwatch marine take on in Deathwatch? However many 1 deathwatch marine can kill before going down is the number I will revise my vote to.

It's unknown, because the number is extracted. A Lasgun cannot hurt a Marine in Deathwatch. It's max damage is 13. Minimum sink for a Marine is 14 (average is 16). That's why you have Hordes. A mag 20 Horde can get 23 damage, a Mag 30+ Horde can get 33 damage with a Lasgun. Horde values do not represent individual people. A Mag 30 horde could represent a legion of 100 Orks, or it could represent 12 Firewarriors firing out disciplined volleys of fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

The Trait 'Touched by the Fates' was invented so that adversaries/NPC's could benefit from both Fate Points and Righteous Fury.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus-templarius wrote:It is a bit silly that some of the weapons in DH/DW can't even harm a space marine, heh.

Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

This Thread has predictably mutated from "How strong do you like your Space Marines" to "How strong do you think they are".

In the background I prefer my Marines achieving kill ratios of hundreds to one. That kind of dominance is the purpose the serve in the background. I mean 6:1? Aren't USMC surpassing that? And Navy SEALS even more?

On the tabletop: about 3:1 of course.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:So do you have a different version of the book than everyone else?

The Trait 'Touched by the Fates' was invented so that adversaries/NPC's could benefit from both Fate Points and Righteous Fury.

They already use Righteous Fury. Find where it says they don't.

OVER 9000!!!!!!!! Gaurdsmen.

DarknessEternal wrote:They already use Righteous Fury. Find where it says they don't.

1. I don't have to. You're the one making the claim so you back it up.
2. Stop being so needlessly confrontational. If you have a quote that shows where adversaries get to use RF, then just show us.

Honestly...

IMO i think there should be more variation in the way this poll is formed. Could 6-15 guardsmen kill a space marine? Quite possibly. Is a space marine worth 6-15 guardsmen? I think they're worth far more than that.

Imagine this scenario, a planetary Governor receives two offers of aid. First offer, from 1000 guardsmen. Second offer, 100 space marines. Which would you pick? I'd pick the space marines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

Well this is what this whole argument has been about, isn't it

One lasgun shouldn't really be able to do any damage to a Space Marine, but like 10 firing in disciplined volleys certainly could; but not really in Deathwatch since you need like a magnitude 20 to do any damage

If I had 10 guys firing full-auto at an Abrams, I might cause a lot of small dents. I think that 15 or so Guardsmen could take a Marine, and that could be repped by a Mag 20 Horde (remember, Mag Value =/= individual people).

In Victories of Space Marine's The Imperial Fist story, The Brother-Sergant said it himself that one space marine is worth 100 Guardsmen. Would a book lie?

A book no, but the Imperial Fists would. They're sneaky buggers!

Vaktathi wrote:A fire team (5ish) of guardsmen unloading on a Space Marine at close range should really stand a good chance of doing something nasty to him. Power armor has weaknesses.

Indeed. Specifically, the 2E AoD Codex had a fluff blurb about Marine power armour "reducing the chance of injury from most common small arms by 50-85%". Lasguns arguably are amongst the most common small arms.

The problem with DW's Horde rules is that they are really good for displaying hack&slay heroics, but fail utterly at conveying a certain sense of realism. A lasgun doesn't magically do additional damage per shot just because it is used by a 50-man-Horde. A single trooper should have a chance to land that devastating hit as well, simply because the weapon's damage profile should not change whether if it's being wielded by a single guy or an entire Company. Also, Hordes don't dodge attacks and guys drop way faster than if you'd shoot at them as individuals (any damage bypassing armour and toughness means -1 magnitude, or -2 when you're using bolt weaponry).

That's okay, though, because DW isn't about accurate portrayal. The writers themselves likened it to movies like "300", which really says it all. It's just that some players do not seem to realize this - which I think happens to be the same crowd who thinks that the Movie Marines rules are an accurate portrayal of Astartes in the fluff, despite what it says in the actual article.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Not really. It makes sense that some weapons just cannot hurt certain targets. If I unloaded the magazine from a Colt Carbine into the side of an Abrams, I'd do nothing to it. If you unloaded an Auto-pistol into a Marine, you'll get a lot of sparks and a lot of ricochets, but that's it.

A 100% invulnerability against bolter shots is kinda pushing it, though. Unless we pull out the Horde rules again.

And even lasguns should have a chance to injure. Not a big one, mind you, but ... y'know.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

lolman112 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

Nicholas wrote:

lolman112 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

lol space marines cant sneak. Like you dont hear a 2 meter tall superhuman in iron armour. Most likely he is screaming: cleanse the unpure, kill all heretics and stuff like that

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

But he can. Talos does quite a lot of sneaking in both Night Lords book. The only sound he emits is the buzz of his armour whilst powered on, and even then most humans aren't going to think its from someone sneaking up on them.

iproxtaco wrote:
But he can. Talos does quite a lot of sneaking in both Night Lords book. The only sound he emits is the buzz of his armour whilst powered on, and even then most humans aren't going to think its from someone sneaking up on them.

He makes a buzzing sound and he still is trying to sneak? 8' tall, clad in metal, and now they buzz. SMs are not meant to be foot padding around. That doesn't men they can't sneak. In a battle field you can be quite sneaky well firing full auto on a rifle. (fog of war and what not) They just wouldn't be good at sneaking/infiltration. If a SM sneaks into your base, you will know it.

Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

nomotog wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

Yup.

coolyo294 wrote:

nomotog wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:Talos and the rest of First Claw snuck into the Fortress Monastery of the Marines Errant and the Imperials didn't know they were in there.

Well buzzing?

Yup.

Reminds me of splinter cell where you would sneak around in pitch black rooms well wearing glow green lights and still not get noticed even though you are the only source of light.

This topic needs it's own thread. Stealth operations in 40k.

Nicholas wrote:

He doesn't have to sneak. Teleport or drop pod in the center of them, then watch as the panicking guardsmen get torn open by a chainsword.

Or they turn and snap fire at point blank range and burn him down.

Why does everyone assume that guardsmen panic, lose their minds, and become unable to fight back when anything scary looking gets close?

I mean seriously...do these guys look like they're gonna do anything besides shoot the piss or bayonet anything that gets close, much less panic and flee?