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In terms of brute strength, I know my apothecary in deathwatch can flip a titan with his bear hands (lift load at 30)

On the table, 3 guardsmen to one marine.
In fluff, 100 guardsmen to one marine.

juraigamer wrote:In terms of brute strength, I know my apothecary in deathwatch can flip a titan with his bear hands (lift load at 30)

On the table, 3 guardsmen to one marine.
In fluff, 100 guardsmen to one marine.

30 what? Tons? If so, 30 tons is about as heavy as a Rhino, the Warhound Titan is friggin' 400 tons or something like that, IIRC.

I voted the 401-1000 range but only because there wasn't a bigger option. We all know that one space marine could probably take the entirety of the Imperial Guard by himself...unarmed...without armor...blindfolded. I mean, I can't believe all this crap about how a marine is only worth 6-15 guardsmen. He's a marine. It's like being a futuristic Spartan.

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

Until you play Deathwatch.

My Deathwatch devistator has killed over 100 renegade guardsmen in a single fight before.

when a magnititude 300 renegade guardsmen horde comes at you, a Heavy bolter is a great thing to have.

Deathwatch also has grossly inflated stats and weapons for basic Space Marines. It's one thing to claim standard Astartes boltguns are more powerful than those wielded by sisters of battle or rare Guard officers, it's another when they are significantly more powerful than non-Deathwatch plasma/melta weaponry and heavy bolters. Deathwatch is not really an accurate representation of Marines either. It's a Hero simulation.


Realistically, once you get out of the 6-15 range, you get into fanwank territory.

"Give me a hundred space marines!!! Failing that give me a thousand other troops"

...If were following the fluff of Black Library Marine novels, in the 50's, if the Guard ones maybe in the 20's or less, if by the roleplaying games then......well a lasgun is about as strong as an Anti Tank rifle so I wouldn't bother to base it on them. I think that being realistic, the average human trooper would have the sense to just get together with a few of his squadmates, turn their lasguns to max charger, spray the marine on full auto and hope that their fluff armour doesn't hold (and that stuff's like paper to anything bar a lasgun...even zombie spit according to the Black Library).

Twenty at the most, lest their opponent's have a lack of common sence or be foul, heretical chaos worshippers in a propoganda pict (remember the marines always win, quote the novel "Eye of Terror" on any childrens game involving Space Marines).

Why would a spacemarine take on guardsmen. They are on the same side.
Isn't it funnier to say: who'll win in a battle like:
15-20 tau soldiers VS 10 guardsmen. ONLY CLOSE COMBAT

Vaktathi wrote:Pretty much all figures given in every Codex says 1 space marine can be equal to 10-12 guardsmen which seems fairly reasonable and is about the limit of what you'd see on the tabltop. Once you start getting past that, you get into ridiculous mode, venturing into Fanfic territory, breaking the suspension of disbelief and making gameplay feel...silly.

+1

Of course, circumstances can push that number to both sides ... either the physical combat mentioned by Void Dragon (Assault Marine with chainsword dropping down right into a platoon -> panic mode), or by an IG squad sporting better-than-average equipment (plasma guns). But the above number is a good standard and in line with what Rogal Dorn has said.

Vaktathi wrote:Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.

Yes, I'm continuously surprised to see how many people think they are, considering it is made abundantly clear in the article itself. I'm attributing the confusion to hearsay and wishful thinking.

Really, a Space Marine worth 6-15 guardsmen?

I mean, why would the Imperium invest the ridiculous amount of gear and training into a Space Marine, if he is only worth 6-15 guardsmen that can be conscripted from any world, and given a lasgun.

It is most certainly not fanwank territory getting above that, because if a Space Marine is only worth 6-15 guardsmen, then there would be no reason to have Space Marines at all, since we have billions of guardsmen.

Deathwatch weapons have gotten toned back, and seem pretty reasonable now. The only way a Space Marine can be hurt by guardsmen is if they are in a mass of 20+, which seems reasonable to me. I think Deathwatch does a much better job at displaying marines as they appear in fluff than the actually TT game does.

Oh, and the new Space Marine game does it pretty well too.

Vaktathi wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:1 Space Marine is not going to take on 100 Guardsmen and win, sorry fanbois, but even as a Marine player, it's ridiculous.

Until you play Deathwatch.

My Deathwatch devistator has killed over 100 renegade guardsmen in a single fight before.

when a magnititude 300 renegade guardsmen horde comes at you, a Heavy bolter is a great thing to have.

Deathwatch also has grossly inflated stats and weapons for basic Space Marines. It's one thing to claim standard Astartes boltguns are more powerful than those wielded by sisters of battle or rare Guard officers, it's another when they are significantly more powerful than non-Deathwatch plasma/melta weaponry and heavy bolters. Deathwatch is not really an accurate representation of Marines either. It's a Hero simulation.


Realistically, once you get out of the 6-15 range, you get into fanwank territory.

Deathwatch IS off the mark, but it is many, many times closer to the reality of it then the TT.

Saying 6-15 is a Huge Guard Fanwank, so don't talk about fanwanking, fanwanker

Vaktathi wrote:Also, Movie Marines are not "fluff' marines, they really aren't.

Nope, they're movie marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus-templarius wrote:I mean, why would the Imperium invest the ridiculous amount of gear and training into a Space Marine, if he is only worth 6-15 guardsmen that can be conscripted from any world, and given a lasgun.

Conscripts are worth far less than a guardsman.

Guardsmen are well trained and competent soldiers-- conscripts are poor schmucks that are grabbed off the streets ,tossed in the back of a truck, given a gun and light flak armor, and told "go shoot the enemy or I'll shoot you".

Hmm, what would a "fluff marine" statline be in TT.

I find that the granularity of Deathwatch makes it much easier to represent them.

lolman112 wrote:Why would a spacemarine take on guardsmen. They are on the same side.
Isn't it funnier to say: who'll win in a battle like:
15-20 tau soldiers VS 10 guardsmen. ONLY CLOSE COMBAT

Yeah...I am wondering when my Tau will learn that CC is easier if they all use the swords each and every one of them carries.

The only time a 10 Tau could out CC 10 guardsmen (when dice is out of the equation) is when they're pissed off cuz their Ethereal died.

Melissia wrote:Conscripts are worth far less than a guardsman.

Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen? Its just a hilarious misallocation of resources then. Millions of guardsmen have died in fluff to preserve a few suits of Space Marine ARMOR!

daedalus-templarius wrote:Hmm, what would a "fluff marine" statline be in TT.

I find that the granularity of Deathwatch makes it much easier to represent them.

Agreed. As for Fluff Marine statline, I_am_a_spoon had a thread a while ago about this that pretty much resolved the issue for all but Melissia.

No, he stroked Marine egos until they bled testosterone.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen?

Tradition plays a big part in it.

But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well. Take the ten guardsmen for a marine thing. How exactly are you going to get 100 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy camp quickly and without warning?

But you can do that with Marines-- using drop pods, which Marines can survive using but most humans would be incapacitated if not actually injured from using.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen? Its just a hilarious misallocation of resources then. Millions of guardsmen have died in fluff to preserve a few suits of Space Marine ARMOR!

Humans are cheap and expendible in the Imperium. Technology is a rare and expensive commodity.

On the poll, I'd have to say it depends on what kind of cat. 2-week old kitten that hasn't opened it's eyes yet and can barely walk? Tough call, but I'd give it to the SM.

I think it's mentioned in the fluff somewhere that a Marine is worth about 10 guardsmen in combat. Of course, this varies depending on 'which' marine is doing the fighting. A hero, or a run-of-the-mill marine.

There are many examples of a company of marines stopping world-wide rebellions and such. I'm not sure if this happens by sheer intimidation based on Astartes combat prowess myths, actual combat, or whether any ancillary units took part, but there is no mention of them as they don't have the cashet of the Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:No, he stroked Marine egos until they bled testosterone.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Ok, but we still have BILLIONS of guardsmen, why would they ever train a Space Marine if he was only worth 5 guardsmen?

Tradition plays a big part in it.

But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well. Take the ten guardsmen for a marine thing. How exactly are you going to get 100 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy camp quickly and without warning?

But you can do that with Marines-- using drop pods, which Marines can survive using but most humans would be incapacitated if not actually injured from using.

If you dropped 10 space marines into the middle of an enemy camp, and they are as tough as 10 guardsmen apiece, they are going to fail. Even their shock tactics aren't going to work if they are that weak.

daedalus-templarius wrote:If you dropped 10 space marines into the middle of an enemy camp, and they are as tough as 10 guardsmen apiece, they are going to fail. Even their shock tactics aren't going to work if they are that weak.

Sigh.

100 guardsmen ambushing an enemy are very likely to utterly destroy said enemy. That aside, pay attention to my posts more:

Melissia wrote:But also because the pure numbers equation doesn't really work that well.

Remember, the world is more than merely numbers.

Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Ah man, I loved Brothers of the Snake.

1000 because that was the max in the poll.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Lol, these are "special" marines powered by turbo fluff. You can't discount it of course because if it's written it's canon. I do think 1 marine to 10 guardsmen is about right for a standard joe-blow Astartes imho.

Again though, any attempt to put even the remotest amount of logic into certain authors perceptions of the 40k universe will end in a complete fail.

Edit: Logic AND continuity...

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

Except Space Marine are better than guardsmen in each and every way physically possible. And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Saying 6-15 is a Huge Guard Fanwank, so don't talk about fanwanking, fanwanker

Except that's about what *EVERY* Codex: Space Marines has stated since 2nd edition (10-12 normal human troops per Space Marine)?

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, Did anyone here read Blood Gorgons? Where Barsabbas bitch-slapped a chaos Ogryn once and broke it's neck?

Or when in Iron Snakes a single marine stopped an Eldar invasion of a feudal world?

Or the Unfortunately canonical Kaldor Draigo.

Or Lysander. Lysander=1 man crusade.

Lets be honest, these are ridiculous tales. An Ogryn is more than a match for most Space Marines unless they're packing terminator armor and a Powerfist, and Iron Snakes was an SM wankfest with dozens of fluff inconsistencies (a single tac squad killing thousands of dark eldar, SM's taking direct command of IG forces and giving direct orders to IG forces, etc). Brothers of the Snake is the one BL book I have never finished, it was that bad. The part with the single marine was also hugely contradictory to fluff, because marines don't operate in onesies, they operate as a team always. Also, it was a crashed DE ship not a full on invasion.


Lysander's fluff is also...bad. silly bad.

And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Except, you know, the fact that Space Marines are not omniscient and don't have eyes in the back of their head. They can't sense everything, and they aren't immune to distraction. Stating otherwise is pure sillyness.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all

IE oversimplify things to the point of nonsense?

One could say one Tanith is worth half a dozen Cadians, but that's only true when using the Tanith to their specialty. Marines in a straight up fight are probably worth roughly a squad of ten fully equipped guardsmen (guns, armor, special weapon and heavy weapon) in that both stand a good chance of destroying eachother and even if they win they've probably been hurt rather bad. But the thing is, why the hell would you use a marine in a straight up fight? In an ambush, that marine would destroy the ten guardsmen with a low chance of receiving grievous injury, while the ten guardsmen would have a much harder time ambushing that marine (it's not impossible, but the Marine's senses are enhanced).

Except Space Marine are better than guardsmen in each and every way physically possible. And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

I believe it's possible to even sneak up on a primarch as well. Just don't try it twice.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Except when they do.