Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Even when it's not a complete plot-fail, this happens more often than you'd think. Keep in mind that if it's written, it's canon and can happen.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Methinks you are grossly overestimating SM's capabilities. There's no fluff that they can hear footsteps or whatnot from multiple kilometers away. They'd go insane hearing a bajillion tiny noises during a battle and couldn't process that. Likewise, about the only fluff about SM's smelling that well is SW's with their enhanced WolfyMcWolferson senses, and it's awful fluff. Likewise, they may have slightly better vision, but they don't have any greater visual range than a normal human, they can't see behind them and don't have 20x magnification or anything silly like that. SM's also can get fatigued at some point, and aren't immune to distractions.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:And no, it would NOT be possible to sneak up on a space marine (without plot armour).

Yes it would. Space Marines are not perfect.

They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Except when they do.

That really doesn't happen. Except with RG, they're better at stealth than the Tanith.

Or when they take plot armour too far *cough*KladorDraigotheMarySuePallyLord*cough*

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

In Brothers of the Snake, While hunting water wyrms or whatever they're called, the main character could hear conversation the humans on neighboring islands were having...miles away.

Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Also: Custodes are awesome


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Abnett wrote it, take it up with him.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Not even a SM could sneak up on a SM.

Dude where are you getting these numbers from?

Also, Necrons sneak up on Space Marines pretty easily. Granted they cheat.

But Tyranids do as well, Ravenors for instance have snuck up on Mehreens, as have Genestealers and Lictors.

Seriously, uh, Marines are impressive, but not hearing scouts from kilometers away impressive. Nor smelling. Unless you're Space Wolves probably.

Also, what some here aren't really getting is that Space Marines are designed to be the perfect soldiers, not stand-alone warriors.

Individually, a Space Marine is a powerful foe, but not insurmountable.

But as a unit, as an army, you have a force that is greater than the sum of its parts, utilizing shock tactics and with each unit meant to complement one another, all held together by superhuman strength of body and mind. If the Imperial Guard are the Hammer of the Emperor, the Space Marines are his Sword (I feel like they have been called this in the fluff before, but I forget). The Imperial Guard are used to combat the enemy where he is strong, to hold out on the front lines, providing a more general assault, similar to how a hammer is better to penetrate armour, requiring less precision in wielding it. The Space Marines are sent towards the enemies' vitals, to completely obliterate them, similar to how one wields a sword.

Or something, the Space Marines fill a niche the Imperial Guard simply can't, and a vital one.

In Brothers of the Snake, While hunting water wyrms or whatever they're called, the main character could hear conversation the humans on neighboring islands were having...miles away.

Has the ear thing showed up anywhere else? It dose seem rather silly.

^ I agree, it is. I accept it, but I take it with a grain of salt. I have seen it in a few other places (ex: Purging of Kadillus).

To be fair, it was one of Abnetts first space marine books. He's more of a Guard writer, and has been writing from the typical guardsmen view of "OMG SPESS MUREEENS ARE LIVING GODS!!!"

and the DE invasion of the Feudal world seemed to be a very minor one. a small ship which had only a few surviors. and the world wasn't exactly primative, they had lasguns IIRC.

I'm sorry, I saw the cat option and laughed. Well played, good sir. Oddly enough, my cat is well behaved. But my Space Marines are not. Those are some evil SOBs. And I aint talking sisters here

My cat once took out a squad of kroot with single tail strike.

What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Void__Dragon wrote:Sounds like Marine fanwank.

Seriously, that crap's just stupid.

Yeah, the whole book like that. Only BL book I've never finished.

Vaktathi wrote:

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Not since the errata they aren't.

All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

6-15.

Can't see them realistically fighting that many more.


For a laugh, and a complete tailspin on this idea, how many Marines in a single Firewarrior worth? If you've read the novel 'Firewarrior', then you know the answer is 3 + 1 Librarian.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

It's a fun system, you can get some good times out of it, but yeah, it's more than a wee bit overexaggerated, with basic bolters being more fearsome than Dark Heresy Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Not since the errata they aren't.

All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

Which errata? The DW one? I'm not seeing anything in there about Bolters. A DW bolter IIRC (don't have book here at work) does 2d10+5 Pen4 right? A normal Bolter in DH does D10+5 Pen4 IIRC and an Heavy Bolter doe 2D10 Pen4. Hell, Bolters are better than PG's and Meltaguns most of the time even in DW due to Tearing and Righteous Fury.

im2randomghgh wrote:They could hear you coming from literally KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they could SMELL YOU FROM KILOMETERS AWAY, plus they have AUTO SENSES, plus they have AUSPEX, plus they have CRAZY VISION, plus they are ALWAYS AWARE, plus they are ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

Saying a bunch of names and ideas doesn't really prove their worth.

Omegus wrote:What I mainly got out of this thread is that the Deathwatch RPG is over-exaggerated crap and that I shouldn't bother.

Not in the slightest. DW's biggest problems stem from the power of bolters. The errata fixed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:All the gaiden games represent the 40k universe closer to the fluff background than 40k itself does.

Which errata? The DW one? I'm not seeing anything in there about Bolters. A DW bolter IIRC (don't have book here at work) does 2d10+5 Pen4 right? A normal Bolter in DH does D10+5 Pen4 IIRC and an Heavy Bolter doe 2D10 Pen4. Hell, Bolters are better than PG's and Meltaguns most of the time even in DW due to Tearing and Righteous Fury.

Ah, the first errata that comes up on a google search didn't have the appendix for weapons.

So it does look like they toned them down significantly, though they're still damn near as powerful as DH Heavy Bolters (higher average damage, lower chance for righteous fury now it looks like).

Interesting change however, good to see they got around to fixing that.

(still waiting for word on a Collector's edition for Black Crusade...grumble)

How many guardsmen can 1 deathwatch marine take on in Deathwatch? However many 1 deathwatch marine can kill before going down is the number I will revise my vote to.

Obviously, they wouldn't just be standing next to each other shooting, so I guess it could be quite a varying number.

Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Grey Templar wrote:To be fair, it was one of Abnetts first space marine books. He's more of a Guard writer, and has been writing from the typical guardsmen view of "OMG SPESS MUREEENS ARE LIVING GODS!!!"

and the DE invasion of the Feudal world seemed to be a very minor one. a small ship which had only a few surviors. and the world wasn't exactly primative, they had lasguns IIRC.

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:6-15.

Can't see them realistically fighting that many more.


For a laugh, and a complete tailspin on this idea, how many Marines in a single Firewarrior worth? If you've read the novel 'Firewarrior', then you know the answer is 3 + 1 Librarian.

Don't forget the Greater Daemon of Tzeentch you get to kill in FW.

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

Their body armor might have been effective against the natives weapons, but the DE were hardly proof.

that war dog that tagged along killed a couple of the DE warriors.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

The world had Gunpowder weapons, and was not able to stop the DE. It would have been embarrassing to have lost a wold to such a small kabal.

It's not like the small number of DE would have destroyed the world or conquered it, rather just caused a lot of ruckus and havoc.

Obviously. The Eldar didn't have enough men to hold a world, but they were proof against the humans weapons, so they would have an unending supply of slaves/victims that have no way to fight back and likely would have terrorized the world for generations.

Their body armor might have been effective against the natives weapons, but the DE were hardly proof.

that war dog that tagged along killed a couple of the DE warriors.

He was a warhound bred through selective breeding, plus they chose not to just shoot it, they wanted to fight and cause it pain.

Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

biccat wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Whatever, if you are going to boil it down to numbers in any way at all, one SM to 10 guardsmen is a gross misallocation of resources.

They'd be way better off just using the resources for the Space Marines to train more guardsmen.

Yup.

Training space marines doesn't make sense from a perspective of simple resource allocation. Therefore, there must be other reasons why the Imperium uses Space Marines.

Cuz they're worth 100+ Guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranids? Tyranids. wrote:Isn't everyone forgetting something??? even a space marine has limited ammo.

They still have about 150 bolts.

More for stormbolters.

Vaktathi wrote:Lets also not forget with DW that it's often mechanics its literally impossible for DW marines to be harmed by Lasguns

Righteous Fury is not just for PCs.