Of Greater Daemons & Primarchs

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**gabrielhorus**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Draigo the Invincible is part of the background. It's not my fault that he has accomplished feats of arms greater than any primarch could hope to match.

Vent the barrel!
Sponge it out!
Reload!
More powder!
Aim! (orky aim)
Fire the Troll Cannon!

**Pilau Rice**

Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

**Castiel**

^ This. I think that it says it all!

EDIT: Oh, and from a loyalist point of view (quote from B&C):

QUOTE (Zynk Kaladin @ Aug 12 2011, 03:01 PM)
As noted, Sanguinius had a sword and also spear if I recall correctly. I think his knee would also be considered a count as powerfist considering that daemon is going to need back surgery, superglue, ice cream, and a billion man sacrifice to the dark gods to rebuild his spine.

A non-ascended primarch handed a bloodthirster a beating, so surely the ascended ones would do better!

**iproxtaco**

Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

Spoiler:

**Pilau Rice**

iproxtaco wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

Spoiler:

To the point where not even Horus or Magnus could have restrained him, to the point where he incapacitated Fulgrim and saw the Daemon indside his brother when not even Magnus could. Lorgar is a badass.

Calm down Taco, he's still a wuss

**iproxtaco**

Yeah, no, no he's not. The old Lorgar wouldn't threaten the Warmaster and Magnus, or use his powers like he did.

**Omegus**

Wuss + superpowers = superpowered wuss.

**iproxtaco**

Ok then. I see someone hasn't read Aurelian.

**Omegus**

It came out like a week ago, of course I haven't had a chance yet.

Doesn't change his actions/attitudes from First Heretic, though. It's on my list though. As one of more cerebral Primarchs, I do want to like him. Being a tool for a human and a power-hungry Space Marine just make it difficult.

And for what it's worth, Magnus could still kick his ass.

Although I don't really see them in opposition... they'd probably just have a nice sit down with some Warp tea and Chaos crackers.

**Durza**

Lorgar always just annoyed me for some reason. But there's not denying he's strong.

**iproxtaco**

Omegus wrote:It came out like a week ago, of course I haven't had a chance yet.

Doesn't change his actions/attitudes from First Heretic, though. It's on my list though. As one of more cerebral Primarchs, I do want to like him. Being a tool for a human and a power-hungry Space Marine just make it difficult.

And for what it's worth, Magnus could still kick his ass.

Although I don't really see them in opposition... they'd probably just have a nice sit down with some Warp tea and Chaos crackers.

They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.
Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

BrainDeleted wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

**Omegus**

iproxtaco wrote:They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.

Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.

Magnus tries to read Lorgar's mind. He pushes Magnus out using his own powers, and threatens him not to do that again. Magnus recoils. He also senses the Daemon within Fulgrim's body, when Magnus could not, and then incapacitated the Daemon. And of course, he beat the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound. Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

There's a difference between being a pawn of Tzeench, and a pawn of, as you put it, "an old man and a Space Marine". Anyway, I'm really keen to read the book, but for $30 they can kiss the hairiest part of my ass. I'll wait for the paperback, or borrow it from one of the locals, or failing that, just read it on scribd in a week or three.

Anyway, do these events happen before or after Lorgar's ascension?

**BrainDeleted**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

**iproxtaco**

Omegus wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:They're all pawns, even Horus, despite his arrogant insistence that he's only using Chaos.

Anyway, I would thoroughly recommend it. The price is steep, but since I only bought the silver version of it, I will definitely say the price is worth it if only for the character development after The First Heretic. His transformation from wuss who gets lead around by an old man and a Space Marine, to a self-assured badass that openly restrains and threatens the Warmaster, honestly, is explained and justified.
Obviously being a huge self-confessed Word Bearers fan, that may just have something to do with it.

As for Magnus, I'm not sure anymore.

Magnus tries to read Lorgar's mind. He pushes Magnus out using his own powers, and threatens him not to do that again. Magnus recoils. He also senses the Daemon within Fulgrim's body, when Magnus could not, and then incapacitated the Daemon. And of course, he beat the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound. Anyway, I apologize for the de-rail.

There's a difference between being a pawn of Tzeench, and a pawn of, as you put it, "an old man and a Space Marine". Anyway, I'm really keen to read the book, but for $30 they can kiss the hairiest part of my ass. I'll wait for the paperback, or borrow it from one of the locals, or failing that, just read it on scribd in a week or three.

Anyway, do these events happen before or after Lorgar's ascension?

The whole book has Lorgar jumping between points in time lead by Ingethel again, to different places, different people (and Daemons), that despite the kind of teleporting around works remarkably well. It's definitely before he turned Daemon Prince.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

**BrainDeleted**

iproxtaco wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

Shattered corpse<Servitor in combat, in the 41st millennium.>

**iproxtaco**

BrainDeleted wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

Yes, that's true unless the Sanguinor is his spirit returned. Otherwise, the servitor is more powerful than a corpse. Thank you, obvious troll for being obvious.

He's not trolling here. By your logic a servitor is more powerful than Sanguinus, which is simply rubbish. A servitor is more useful from a physical perspective than Sanguinus, which is entirely different, but even dead the Blood Angels Primarch does a whole lot of good through how he can inspire people.

Shattered corpse<Servitor in combat, in the 41st millennium.>

Sanguinus isn't just a corpse. He's an inspirational figure that does more good than any random servitor, you're looking at his in a FAR too narrow view.

**Void__Dragon**

Spoiler:

**DarknessEternal**

He's been powered up by Chaos by that point.

**Void__Dragon**

DarknessEternal wrote:He's been powered up by Chaos by that point.

Ah, he has?

I see.

If nothing else, we can confidently assume Daemon Primarchs are greater than most or all Greater Daemons then, I guess.

Though, I lack context, need to read for myself.

**Harriticus**

The problem with Greater Daemons is that:

A.) Their precise number has never been stated and given the nature of Chaos is probably close to infinite. There are 20 Primarchs but x Bloodthirsters.
B.) They're powerful but generic and faceless. A Lord of Change is a Lord of Change and does Lord of Changey things
C.) They're expendable and replaceable without any effect to the 40k status quo.

The above means that they will be defeated by heroes often to showcase the heroes powers or abilities be they Grey Knights or Primarchs.

ANBU in Naruto, Star Destroyers, the monster-of-the-week in Power Ranges: they all suffer from this same problem.

Really, Greater Daemons should be stronger then any Primarch given what they are but due to the above reasons it will never be so.

**Jackster**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
BrainDeleted wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

So then by that reasoning your average servitor is more powerful than Sanguinius - because Sanguinius is dead.

No, by his logic, Sanguinius conquered countless worlds for the Imperium and possibly helped the Emperor defeat Horus. His actions certainly have a lot more lasting influence than Draigo's pointless struggle in the warp.

**Void__Dragon**

Why you are arguing accomplishments as a general when he is speaking of accomplishments in terms of martial and psychic might I'm not entirely sure.

Just saying.

**Jackster**

Void__Dragon wrote:Why you are arguing accomplishments as a general when he is speaking of accomplishments in terms of martial and psychic might I'm not entirely sure.

Just saying.

I wasnt really arguing anything as much as explaining the logic behind Braindeleted's argument.

**Pilau Rice**

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, no, no he's not. The old Lorgar wouldn't threaten the Warmaster and Magnus, or use his powers like he did.

I was pulling your leg mate, he's clearly a tough chap now after Istvaan, but that still makes him a wuss

Omegus wrote:Wuss + superpowers = superpowered wuss.

I concur

**AvatarForm**

iproxtaco wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:Big Spoiler from Aureilian here.

Spoiler:

Lorgar beats An'ggrath

Not such a weasel anymore apparently

I knew he had it in him. I actually forgot about it. He was unbelievably powerful after Istvaan.

Spoiler:

To the point where not even Horus or Magnus could have restrained him, to the point where he incapacitated Fulgrim and saw the Daemon indside his brother when not even Magnus could. Lorgar is a badass.

Where is this mentioned?