Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But that's still beside the point, the fact that the text asserts that Draigo is beyond the will of the Chaos Gods is the most idiotic part of the fluff.

Agreed. They could have at least heavily emphasized the Emperor protecting him and using him as an avatar of his will or something......Tsk, tsk.

Even then it still wouldn't be so bad if Draigo wasn't a playable characer you can have in every Grey Knights army, heh... and instead was merely a legend of days long past.

Melissia wrote:Even then it still wouldn't be so bad if Draigo wasn't a playable characer you can have in every Grey Knights army, heh... and instead was merely a legend of days long past.

Him being a Grey Knight legend wouldn't be so bad, I guess I could agree with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I'd say they're roughly about a tie with the toning down of the Primarchs in more recent fluff compared to the old almost godlike primarchs.

Vulkan survived being hit by what I'm pretty sure was a Nova Cannon in Fulgrim.

I'm just saying.

I think she was talking about GD and Primarches but if that was referring to the Primarches vs. Driago........Grrr.....

Compared to the Primarches whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows

-Codex: Space Wolves (First one on hand)

BrainDeleted wrote:I think she was talking about GD and Primarches but if that was referring to the Primarches vs. Driago........Grrr.....

Compared to the Primarches whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows

-Codex: Space Wolves (First one on hand)

I know she was.

Was just pointing out that Primarchs are still very much the "godlike" warriors of old.

Magnus also reminisces mentally of leveling mountains when training with his brothers.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think she was talking about GD and Primarches

Isn't that the topic of the thread?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Was just pointing out that Primarchs are still very much the "godlike" warriors of old.

So are greater daemons, like little gods compared to the big four gods.

Yeeeeees, ma'am but we did get seriously derail for a while

Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Yeah no.

Angron was kicking Brother Captain ass until the remaining Grey Knights, IIRC there were three dozen left, combined all their power and issued forth an attack stronger than the sum of its parts.

This stunned Angron, sheer willpower preventing him from fading completely, but allowed the Brother Captain to behead him while Angron was defenseless.

Late as usual. Just nitpicking to clear up a few facts:

- The Brother-Captian has been named for a while. It's Aurellian. Yes, he shares a similar name with a Daemon Primarch. Kinda funny I guess...
- Alone Angron would have won in a duel with Aurellian, no doubt. On his own Aurellian does manage to inflict at least one wound on Angron. So not too one-sided, though Angron could easily 'reknit' himself.
- Aurellian didn't behead him (this seems to have been reiterated in other topics) but simply impales him and allows the force weapon to do it's stuff.

Done.

BrainDeleted wrote:Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - MILLENNIA of constant warfare ALONE AND UNAIDED against the most powerful servants of the Chaos gods IN THE REALM OF CHAOS ITSELF (not the Eye of Terror which is a realspace/warpspace overlap, but the actual REALM OF FRIGGIN CHAOS where every daemon is at 100% full strength and cannot be banished back to the Warp because they are already there) and all without food, water or sleep for longer than any non-daemon primarch has lived.
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (which he forged himself from the purified steel of one of Khorne's most powerful bloodthirsters whom he defeated with his bare hands (and here's the key part) IN THE DOMAIN OF KHORNE HIMSELF), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He burned down the domain of a Chaos god with his mind.
Deeds - Knocked a primarch to the ground, then basically held said primarch down like he was his kid brother and wrote all over him with magic marker before sending him packing with a swift kick to the pants. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - One guy let a Chaos god trick him into breaking the Emperor's secret yellowbrick road. He felt so bad about it he let his ignorant superstitious brother kill all his people and destroy his planet.
Deeds - One guy got himself trapped in a painting by a talking sword. Another guy went totally flying rodent gak and let an assassin kill him. Two other guys got killed by the talking sword guy. And the undisputed greatest and most powerful of them all was turned to Chaos after nearly being killed by a fat bureaucrat with a magic sword.

Is there really that much difference between a rotting domain of nurgle and a rotting domain of nurgle that's on fire?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - MILLENNIA of constant warfare ALONE AND UNAIDED against the most powerful servants of the Chaos gods IN THE REALM OF CHAOS ITSELF (not the Eye of Terror which is a realspace/warpspace overlap, but the actual REALM OF FRIGGIN CHAOS where every daemon is at 100% full strength and cannot be banished back to the Warp because they are already there) and all without food, water or sleep for longer than any non-daemon primarch has lived.
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (which he forged himself from the purified steel of one of Khorne's most powerful bloodthirsters whom he defeated with his bare hands (and here's the key part) IN THE DOMAIN OF KHORNE HIMSELF), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He burned down the domain of a Chaos god with his mind.
Deeds - Knocked a primarch to the ground, then basically held said primarch down like he was his kid brother and wrote all over him with magic marker before sending him packing with a swift kick to the pants. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - One guy let a Chaos god trick him into breaking the Emperor's secret yellowbrick road. He felt so bad about it he let his ignorant superstitious brother kill all his people and destroy his planet.
Deeds - One guy got himself trapped in a painting by a talking sword. Another guy went totally flying rodent gak and let an assassin kill him. Two other guys got killed by the talking sword guy. And the undisputed greatest and most powerful of them all was turned to Chaos after nearly being killed by a fat bureaucrat with a magic sword.

I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

That guy who destroyed the Emperor's yellow brick road? Yeah, he can tear Titans apart with his mind and stop all movement on a planet, as well as negating a warpstorm that it took the legion's most powerful psykers to summon by himself (should I write ALONE AND UNAIDED there instead to emphasise my point?) The fact that he got tricked by the god of trickery doesn't mean he's less powerful than Draigo.

The guy who got trapped in a painting is the only person in history to defeat two primarchs.

The fact that Kurze had to let an assassin kill him shows not only how far ahead of the Imperium he was, but also strength of will that he didn't have doubts at the last moment. Other deeds? Oh, yeah, he was so accomplished at terror warfare that planets surrendered at the very mention that he was coming for them.

The two guys Fulgrim killed? One killed a Necron construct by drowning it in lava. With his bare hands. The other was apparently the greatest tactician ever known to man...

I'm not sure if I even need to point out what Horus has accomplished, but what the hell. Yes, he got almost killed by a guy with a magic sword. At a time when the Emperor was denying the existence of daemons. By one of the most powerful daemon blades in the galaxy. Then? Oh, yeah. He put the Emperor on life support and burned down Terra so well that the planets tectonic plates shifted. And it stayed burned.

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

Melissia wrote:So are greater daemons, like little gods compared to the big four gods.

Well, yeah.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that the Primarchs are as strong or stronger than the Chaos Gods (Though I've honestly seen that claimed).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

I think you could maybe expand on that a little more. What do we personally find bad about him? Is there a negative aspect to the character?
Depends. I know one 'bad' thing. Nothing he does accomplishes anything.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Find one bad thing about Draigo.

He has yet to achieve a meaningful victory.

I wouldn't say Draigo doesn't accomplish anything, at the very least he buys time by disrupting the chaos gods. But every major daemon he's killed will just come back.

Daemon Primarch wins.

Regular Primarch on par.

next

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:I see. So you're going to pick out everything good you can find about Draigo and everything bad you can find about the primarchs. I believe that's called confirmation bias.

Find one bad thing about Draigo.

He was too slow to save his Grand Master. He never gets anything done that sticks. His life is basically a continuous cage match until he dies, with brief stints in reality. And that wasn't my point. If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Durza wrote:If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Ok, let's be fair then. I will list Draigo's weaknesses.

. . .

. . .

. . . he hasn't successfully destroyed Chaos once and for all? That's all I got.

No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Right, I guess the topic at hand is what should be discussed. With knowledge of what they're dealing with, most non-daemon primarchs would be able to beat a strong Greater Daemon, I'd imagine. Though that's just based on a powerful one being able to beat one when he was taken by surprise.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:If you're going to compare things, either use all good points, all bad points, or both. It skews the results if you're going to hunt down every primarch's weakness and ignore the fact that they conquered most of the galaxy.

Ok, let's be fair then. I will list Draigo's weaknesses.

. . .

. . .

. . . he hasn't successfully destroyed Chaos once and for all? That's all I got.

Orks could still initiate turbo rape though. Especially Gharkul Blackfang, Kaldor would be eaten. Probably literally. That guy almost killed the fething Emperor.

I don't think the claim that Draigo is more powerful than the Primarchs is meant to be so much serious as a reinforcement of just how terrible Matthew Ward is at writing fluff. Because if we accept the writing as is, Draigo is way superior to the Primarchs, most of whom are a bunch of petulant douche-nozzles.

DarknessEternal wrote:No one finds your blatant disregard of the background or the rest of this thread amusing.

Draigo the Invincible is part of the background. It's not my fault that he has accomplished feats of arms greater than any primarch could hope to match.

How many worlds has Draigo won for them Imperium again? Oh, yeah, he hasn't really done much helpful to anybody since been banished to the warp. But wait, he helps the Grey Knights in battle sometimes, I forgot.

Dont feed the troll.

BrainDeleted wrote:How many worlds has Draigo won for them Imperium again? Oh, yeah, he hasn't really done much helpful to anybody since been banished to the warp. But wait, he helps the Grey Knights in battle sometimes, I forgot.

And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote: This is also why the chaos bless Horus was able to fight the Emperor on an almost even footing.

the weren't on even footing, the emperor spent the fight defending, and trying to reason with him. we are talking about the man that subdued the void dragon. I might be wrong, but I dont think they were nearly on even footing.

that being said i think that this convo ends at the story of angron and100 bloodthirsters. clearly angron was in a leadership position therefore it only makes sense that they are greater than GD. not sure if this holds up across all 4 of the gods. would mortion (sp) kill a nugle GD? i think the answer is absolutely yes.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And by that argument an unaugmented human like Solar Macharius > Draigo. I don't think Solar Macharius ever defeated bloodthirster with his bare hands, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's my point. Draigo is (almost) utterly useless and dead to the Imperium. None of his wooptidooness does jack. That Bloodthirster got up afterwards and mumbled something about having to go get a new axe. Whee. What's the ultimate feat of arms? The whole point of arms? Conquering. Winning. Victory. None of which Draigo can have barring his occasional forays into real space.

Draigo managed to find his way through Tzeentch's maze. The chaps who get down on their knees for Draigo will tell you he knew the maze's true name or some other such bs, everyone with functioning braincells will tell you he's a terrible, terrible character from the mind of a thirteen year-old. Let's move on.

Daemon Primarchs are more powerful than Greater Daemons, seems to be what we've established.