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Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

Must....resist.....proving.............otherwise.........

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

He beat a Daemon Primarch.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

He beat a Daemon Primarch.

Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

Daemon Primarchs. Are. DAEMONS! Now isn't that a twist and a half?

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

Your logic is faulty. That puts them at a 1-1 split. So based on that data alone, Sanguinius was equal to the most powerful Greater Daemon of Khorne.

Void__Dragon wrote:When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

He didn't. He beat Skarbrand on his own, reportedly with a single strike.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

The Daemon primarchs are strong, but Mortarion certainly wasn't one of the strongest among them. And he had just been battling another Grand Master, which, unless that Grand Master was a wimp, would have weakened him considerably.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Psst, I think the key word there is Daemon, because you know, Draigo is a Grey Knight.

I don't see endless comments about how Hector Rex, and Inquisitor, took out Ann'grath the Unbound alone. Or how Thawn took out Ku'gath on his own. Or how Dante took out Skarbrand or Ka'bahnda on his own. Of these, only Thawn is a Grey Knight, and he's just a Justicar, and all of these Daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

When did Dante beat Ka'Bhanda on his own?

I'm not sure what makes you think all of those daemons are stronger than Mortarion.

An'ggrath and Ka'Bhanda are the only ones who I could see one reasonably assuming may be stronger.

He beat Skarbrand with a single strike. Yes that's right, a Chapter Master managed to one hit one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, but no cares about that.

Skarbrand is one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters. Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons. Ku'gath is one of the strongest Great Unclean Ones. He may or may not be stronger than Mortarion, but I wouldn't have thought there would be a huge difference. Besides, it was the fact that a lone Justicar took out one of the named Great Unclean Ones that has it's one stats.

Durza wrote:My anger is rising as I read it, but I will point out- as many others have done before- Draigo is a Grey Knight. He beat a daemon. And not even a particularly strong one at that, especially considering he was weakened after owning the last Grand Master. Others have beaten daemons, and without having super-special psychic powers and being specifically trained to kill daemons.

I wasn't aware Daemon Primarchs aren't particularly strong Daemons.

Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

I don't think anyone us assuming Mortarion was a wimp. Simply, that there are numerous other cases of single warriors taking out other similar Daemons, some which are more powerful than a weakened Mortarion.

Regarding Dante vs Skarbrand: Isn't the whole point of the paragraph to suggest that the 'split in twine' part is just a rumour that's happily getting out of hand?

Otherwise agreed. Skarbrand (S8) is slightly stronger than DP Angron (S7) in the classic sense. So it's just as likely that he's stronger than Mortarion too.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Billagio wrote:I would say, from weakest to strongest Greater Daemon->Primarch->Daemon Primarch->Kaldor Draigo.

Fixed it.

Trollin for a Lollin? Brilliant.

Game wise, 'stronger' would most likely mean WS, S, T, I and W. Most stats used in combat.

Void__Dragon wrote:Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

They are drawing the wrong conclusion from the story. The goal of the story is not to make Mortarion look weaker than a marine, but rather to make Draigo look stronger than a primarch. Unfortunately, the Mary Sue-induced cognitive dissonance is insurmountable for some. Thus all the rationalizations - "it's logical to assume that Mortarion was weakened/surprised/etc" - some of which have now, in the minds of many, been seemingly elevated to the status of canon despite not being backed up by any actual written words in the source material. Draigo is stronger than a primarch. It's canon. Get over it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Seriously, why are people assuming Mortarion is a wimp?

They are drawing the wrong conclusion from the story. The goal of the story is not to make Mortarion look weaker than a marine, but rather to make Draigo look stronger than a primarch. Unfortunately, the Mary Sue-induced cognitive dissonance is insurmountable for some. Thus all the rationalizations - "it's logical to assume that Mortarion was weakened/surprised/etc" - some of which have now, in the minds of many, been seemingly elevated to the status of canon despite not being backed up by any actual written words in the source material. Draigo is stronger than a primarch. It's canon. Get over it.

But which Primarch? Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one, it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron, and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion, and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.
Draigo is not stronger than "a primarch". Get over yourself.

I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.

iproxtaco wrote:Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one...

So your argument is that a primarch is as strong as a primarch? This is obviously true, but what does this have to do with Draigo?

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

...and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion...

So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

...and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.

Relevance?

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

There are 18 Primarchs of varying power and capability. Draigo is greater than "a Primarch", apparently. Which Primarch? That was my original question.
My point though, was that if you're going to rate Draigo, he's beneath Dante, Justicar Thawn, Hector Rex, and Fulgrim, who was beneath Sanguinus, Angron, and Horus.

*Edit*

Redacted for misrememberification.

We've got stats for both Angron the daemon prince and Bloodthirsters. Angron is slightly better, but not enough to vote for anything except Tie if they were fighting each other.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

The power of creatures is not as simple as you seem to think. An elephant is vastly stronger than a man, but with a big enough gun a man will kill an elephant. In some ways, a leopard is stronger than a person, but an adult man can still kill one bare-handed. Yet, a leopard could also kill a man in different circumstances. In 40K, it's fairly for large creatures to be taken down by smaller opponents since the large creatures sometimes struggle to fight such small targets that are close. That doesn't mean that they are less powerful than their opponent.

Also, as Durza pointed out, Mortarion had just been fighting another Grey Knight. Unless you choose to believe that the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights was absolutely powerless before Mortarion, Mortarion would have expended energy in killing him.

Dash2021 wrote:Not sure where people are saying that Mortarion was weakened prior to the fight with Draigo. IIRC, the lone sentence in the fluff just says he carved his predisessor's name in Mortarion's heart, without going into much detail. I believe the predisessor thing only pertains to the first time he beat the greater demon. Granted, I only read the story once due to Mary-sueness overload.

Mortarion had just killed the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, which would require energy at the least, and possibly have caused him injury already.

Point is, Draigo didn't just beat a primarch, he beat a demon-prince primarch, and not in the material realm, but in the warp. And not just in the warp, but on the demon prince primarch's own planet in the warp (this part I'm not at all confident I remember from the story, but heck, w

hy not). Point is that yes, Draigo is stronger than at least one demon prince primarch....according to awfully written mary-sue fluff.

Dash2021 wrote:Not sure where people are saying that Mortarion was weakened prior to the fight with Draigo. IIRC, the lone sentence in the fluff just says he carved his predisessor's name in Mortarion's heart, without going into much detail. I believe the predisessor thing only pertains to the first time he beat the greater demon. Granted, I only read the story once due to Mary-sueness overload.

Point is, Draigo didn't just beat a primarch, he beat a demon-prince primarch, and not in the material realm, but in the warp. And not just in the warp, but on the demon prince primarch's own planet in the warp (this part I'm not at all confident I remember from the story, but heck, why not). Point is that yes, Draigo is stronger than at least one demon prince primarch....according to awfully written mary-sue fluff.

*Edit*

Also, assuming the primarch's (and hence demon prince primarchs) are roughly equal in power, this also means Draigo is stronger than the primarchs, as demon prince Fulgrim killed Gulliman. So yea, Draigo > a primarch as well...

It's that part where Mortarion had not long finished killing the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Unless you're sitting in stubborn ignorance, Mortarion was quite obviously not just arrived from a two week vacation on the Canary Islands.

Yeah, and Draigo is a Grey Knight. You know what they do? They spend their time killing Daemons, it's what they're good at. It was also not in the Warp and not on Mortarion's planet.

Your assumption is wrong.

iproxtaco wrote: It's that part where Mortarion had not long finished killing the previous Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights. Unless you're sitting in stubborn ignorance, Mortarion was quite obviously not just arrived from a two week vacation on the Canary Islands.

Yeah, and Draigo is a Grey Knight. You know what they do? They spend their time killing Daemons, it's what they're good at. It was also not in the Warp and not on Mortarion's planet.

Your assumption is wrong.

Quite right. Just re-read the fluff piece, and I was thinking the Mortarion encounter was after he had been banished to the warp, not before. Completely changes the context of the story around.

Must have been a bias against GK fluff from the codex tainting my recollection.

My apologies if I seemed sharp, long-term exposure to Mat Ward's dreadful execution of fairly decent fluff ideas increases cases of sarcasm by up to 50%.

No worries, completely understandable. GK are going to be the whipping boy/butt end of jokes for a while thanks to Mr. Ward's " I know space marines are cool, but these GK guys are the most awesomester." approach to writing their fluff. No reason for me to get bad fluff wrong though!

Also, here's hopping that Ward does the Eldar Codex when they get around to it. Jump pack Wraithguard with 3 attacks base, and wraith-cannons all at 10 points? Yes please.

/end thread derail

Gotta go with DP-Primarch, generally speaking. Assuming their "ascension" increases their power in a manner similar to the increase in power mortals experience, the primarch's should be more powerful than all but the oldest Greater Demons. But then again, as several people have pointed out, power is a relative term. The frame of reference would likely have more impact on the confrontation than anything else.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I'm not sure I understand your line of argument.

iproxtaco wrote:Fulgrim has killed two Primarchs, Guilliman has killed one...

So your argument is that a primarch is as strong as a primarch? This is obviously true, but what does this have to do with Draigo?

Assumedly, the argument is that the primarchs differed in power level, and that Draigo could beat one certainly doesn't mean he can beat them all.

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

...and even regular Marines have taken out much harder targets than Mortarion...

So now you're arguing that Mortarion is weaker than a regular marine? That doesn't seem right, but I suppose it could be true. Specifically, which "regular marines" and "harder targets" are you referring to here?

One of the Blood Angels has killed the daemon Sanguinius fought, IIRC.

...and Horus was the best of all the Primarchs.

Relevance?

That not all primarchs are equal.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

iproxtaco wrote:He beat Skarbrand with a single strike. Yes that's right, a Chapter Master managed to one hit one of the strongest Bloodthirsters, but no cares about that.

In principal I'm not bothered by Draigo beating Mortarion. It's just the execution that was... Lame.

Also, single strike?

The text just says he close Skarbrand in two, that's it. I for some reason doubt Dante just hulked out at the start of the fight and cut Skarbrand in half.

Skarbrand is one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters. Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons. Ku'gath is one of the strongest Great Unclean Ones. He may or may not be stronger than Mortarion, but I wouldn't have thought there would be a huge difference. Besides, it was the fact that a lone Justicar took out one of the named Great Unclean Ones that has it's one stats.

Bloodthirsters are the strongest Greater Daemons in physical combat, not necessarily overall. Lords of Change would be hopeless in a brawl with a Greater Daemon, but its incredibly powerful sorcery makes it just as dangerous (Though some Bloodthirsters may be able to cancel said sorcery out, against other opponents the lethality would be similar. Same with Great Unclean Ones and Keepers of Secrets, really).

Thawn is kind of an exceptional case though, since, you know, he's a melon-fething Highlander. He can't die. Were it just about anyone but Thawn, they would have died after being eaten by a Great Unclean One, let alone Ku'gath. Generally Great Unclean Ones don't expect to be blown open from the inside by the guy they just ate.

I don't think anyone us assuming Mortarion was a wimp. Simply, that there are numerous other cases of single warriors taking out other similar Daemons, some which are more powerful than a weakened Mortarion.

As you said, it is the execution that makes it not a very cool thing.

That said, you are right, just because Draigo beat Mortarion, doesn't imply he could defeat, say, Magnus the Red, or Angron, in single combat.

I don't know if Skarbrand is really one of the strongest Bloodthirsters. Before he got crushed like a grape by Khorne, and then exiled maybe, but not after. And the description of that battle is basically "he beat him" with no context given. Hardly similar to Draigo curb-stomping a Primarch and carving his boyfriend's name into his heart.

As Void Dragon pointed out, Thrawn didn't exactly defeat the GUO. He lost, horribly, but due to being Jesus or whatever, came back to life inside the GUO and blew out his guts.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, you are right, just because Draigo beat Mortarion, doesn't imply he could defeat, say, Magnus the Red, or Angron, in single combat.

Yet the text implies that even the Chaos Gods can't do anything about him, and he routinely punks Greater Daemons in the Warp (ya know, where they are at 100% power and can't be banished).

Omegus wrote:I don't know if Skarbrand is really one of the strongest Bloodthirsters. Before he got crushed like a grape by Khorne, and then exiled maybe, but not after. And the description of that battle is basically "he beat him" with no context given. Hardly similar to Draigo curb-stomping a Primarch and carving his boyfriend's name into his heart.

Well, I would say Skarbrand is stronger than average. On par with An'ggrath or Ka'Bhanda? Nah. An'ggrath in particular is stated to be better in every way.

Yet the text implies that even the Chaos Gods can't do anything about him, and he routinely punks Greater Daemons in the Warp (ya know, where they are at 100% power and can't be banished).

Ugh. You're right. I was trying to sort of kind of justify Draigo's crap, but the text does make it clear: Chaos can't do gak about Draigo. All the speculation that the Gods allow him to do this for lulz is just that, speculation, and actually contradictory to the actual text. Since it directly states he is immune to the will of the Chaos Gods.

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

How is it physically impossible? The fact that he did it shows that it is possible.

It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Note that Fulgrim and Guilliman did not knock a primarch to the ground, hold him down like he was their kid brother, carve a multi-syllabic name into his heart and then send him packing (probably with a swift kick to the rear just to show him who's boss). All you've done is show that Draigo > Fulgrim, Guilliman, 95 Grey Knights.

Ignoring the physical impossibility that Draigo could do this, is doesn't really show he's any better at fighting than primarchs, just that he can pin people under the weight of his plot armour.

How is it physically impossible? The fact that he did it shows that it is possible.