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DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Yeah no.

Angron was kicking Brother Captain ass until the remaining Grey Knights, IIRC there were three dozen left, combined all their power and issued forth an attack stronger than the sum of its parts.

This stunned Angron, sheer willpower preventing him from fading completely, but allowed the Brother Captain to behead him while Angron was defenseless.

Durza wrote:
Mortarion, being bigger than Space Marines to start with, was bloated by Nurgle's power. Unless Draigo weights ten tons, it makes no sense that Mortarion couldn't just roll him off. Then again, nothin Draigo related makes sense.

Mortarion was already dead at the time.

Daemons still leave physical bodies in the materium when you kill them here.

DarknessEternal wrote:It didn't take 95 Grey Knights to beat Angron. It took that many to occupy/defeat his retinue.

It specifically took ONE Grey Knight to kill Angron. He didn't even get named.

Well, obviously it only took one. It just took 95 others to immobilise him to a point where killing him was possible.

I don't think Mortarion went all bloated and fat like a normal Great Unclean One. I think he went skeletal, since he was always skinny anyway...



Wouldn't wanna meet him in a dark alley.

I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon). Also, true names? Woops, we know your birth names Primarches, sorry. Just the holy presence of a Grey Knight hurts a daemon.

I think a flesh and blood Primarch, like, say, Russ or Vulkan could smear Draigo into a bloody paste since he can't just kick them in the nuts with his intimate knowledge of daemons. Oh, and also the Emperor wouldn't have his back either.

BrainDeleted wrote:I don't think Mortarion went all bloated and fat like a normal Great Unclean One. I think he went skeletal, since he was always skinny anyway...

He did.

He stretched, grew taller, and became even more gaunt than before.

Jackster wrote:Sanguinius eats greater daemons for breakfast.

This^
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud! The average greater daemon, no chance in hell (or warp ) GD like skrarband? Would be a challenge indeed...

That Greater Daemon also broke Sanguinius' legs in a previous battle.

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Actually it is Draigo that "cooks" are afraid of - now only the most crazed Khornate ones seek him out. Has Angron ever burned down the Garden of Nurgle or destroyed the Inevitable City? I didn't think so.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon).

Draigo has defeated every daemon he has come across even in the Warp where they are at 100% full power. He goes around destroying the realms of the Chaos gods ferchrissakes. I don't see how any primarch can compare.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud!

Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Also, when Sanquinius went to fight the big bloodthirster at the siege of Terra, everyone assumed he was going off to make a heroic sacrifice, not that he was actually going to win.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

blood reaper wrote:It took him two times to do so, it's not really that great.

As of current fluff, Ka'Bhanda is apparently the strongest Bloodthirster.

And in their second fight, Ka'Bhanda managed to sneak attack Sanguinius, casting him to the ground, and Sanguinius still broke his back.

So apparently Sanguinius, who Corax seems to believe is probably weaker than Angron, bested the strongest Bloodthirster, despite being caught off guard.

I am just saying.

And all this after holding the gate alone for hours.

Sanguinius certainly ate his wheaties that morning, I can tell you.

The Primarchs are the chosen warriors of the chaos gods.
You have to remember, upon becoming princes the primarchs were elevated to the point where they no longer cared about the Imperium.
Mortarion is death. Magnus is fate. Angron is war. ect...
The story of Draigo vs Morty isn't supposed to be anything new or original. It's a take on the story of Hercules wrestling Death.
Symbolic of the endless struggle man makes to prevent death from taking him.

And yes Mortarion is not bloated. He is tall and thin. The figure of death surrounded by his bloated corpse servants.

Durza wrote:That Greater Daemon also broke Sanguinius' legs in a previous battle.

That was when he was set up by Horus, at the same time probably having no idea what a daemon is.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Durza wrote:

...it took around 95 Grey Knights to kill Angron...

So Draigo is stronger than 95 regular Grey Knights. Next.

Has Draigo ever fought Angron? Because there's nothing to indicate he could win, since Angron was reckoned to be the second or third most powerful primarch in single combat. Since Horus was better and Sanguinius was roughly equal, by default this means that Angron was better than Mortarion in combat and Draigo can't necessarily beat him.

Well, considering that Draigo walks around the Realm of Chaos handily beating up every single daemon he comes across on their home turf and stealing their lunch money, I'd say Angron doesn't stand a chance.

That's a nice completely unfounded claim there. Angron is stronger than the average daemon. And he doesn't need lunch money, because the cooks are afraid of him.

Actually it is Draigo that "cooks" are afraid of - now only the most crazed Khornate ones seek him out. Has Angron ever burned down the Garden of Nurgle or destroyed the Inevitable City? I didn't think so.

Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

BrainDeleted wrote:I think daemonhood made the Primarches stronger in some ways but also made them weaker. In the warp, they're power is much, much, much greater than it once was but in real space, I think they've actually been weakened. Daemonhood gives them the obvious Achilles Heel of being bound to the warp, unable to exist long without a strong connection to it (Like the temples Angron tried to maintain on Armageddon).

Draigo has defeated every daemon he has come across even in the Warp where they are at 100% full power. He goes around destroying the realms of the Chaos gods ferchrissakes. I don't see how any primarch can compare.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

Durza wrote:Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

That advantage is being able to weaken their grip on the material realm, through a combination of special techniques and knowing their true names. That shouldn't apply in the Warp proper.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

He destroyed a city and a garden created by CHAOS GODS inside the FRIGGIN WARP, all by his lonesome. When Primarchs "razed planets and murdered populations", they did it at the head of a Legion of space marines.

DarknessEternal wrote:Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Funny, because Magnus was very confident he was not merely stronger than the other Primarchs, but even more powerful than the Emperor.

And Corax only thinks he "might" be able to beat Angron in martial combat, compared to Horus, who he just thought could.

When is Sanguinius ever said to be the strongest Primarch? The overall "best" (Not in terms of single combat) maybe, but even that is suspect, as many, like Dorn, readily admitted Horus was the best man for Warmaster.

Also, when Sanquinius went to fight the big bloodthirster at the siege of Terra, everyone assumed he was going off to make a heroic sacrifice, not that he was actually going to win.

Where is this from?


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Durza wrote:Has Draigo ever killed ninety five Grey Knights or slaughtered the population of entire planets? No, he'll only fight opponents he has an inherent advantage against.

Tell me one other character who has defeated even an average Greater Daemon in the Warp. Let alone an incredibly powerful one like M'kaechan. Also, most advantages Grey Knights have, as Omegus said, concern banishing them to the Warp... Which is not an advantage in the Warp.

He's destroyed a city and a garden. They rebuilt themselves.
The primarchs have razed planets and murdered populations. I don't see how Draigo can compare.

At the heads of armies they did that. Hell, going by that logic, Macharius could beat up Draigo in personal combat.

Destroying the entire domain of a Chaos God, and doing so apparently regularly, even if it reforms, is something no other can claim to have done.

The Draigo stronger than the primarches argument is asinine. He would be nothing more than a bloody smear on the floor if he came against a non-Daemon Primarch or if he stumbled upon a Daemon Primarch's daemon world and fought them on their home turf where he'd have no advantage.

Quick review.

Draigo:
Size - Normal Astartes ~ 7'6"-8'
Experience - Couple hundred years of constant warfare. Standard for an Astartes who is successful
Equipment - TDA, Aegis, Titansword (Nifty Force Sword), Stormshield, Storm bolter.
Psyker - He's got three powers and he's a good psyker.
Deeds - Beat one Daemon Primarch who would have been not fighting at 100% by any measure. Beat a punching bag LoC several times. Rampages through the Warp destroying things that regenerate once he leaves.

Generic Primarch:
Size - Giant. Towers over Astartes. ~8'6"-10'?
Experience - Hundreds of years of constant warfare, the bloodiest battles the Imperium has ever fought, won the greatest victories the Imperium has ever won.
Equipment - The best stuff ever made by IoM suited to preference.
Psyker - May have no capabilities up to second only to the Emperor.
Deeds - Most have fought the Emperor and not been obliterated (Or have been). Led legions all over the galaxy crushing all comers. Many have killed other Primarches. Managed not to get stuck in the warp unless willing. Beat all manner of GD, including some of the most powerful. You name it and chances are, a Primarch has killed it barring only the God level beings in the 40k universe.

Primarches are better than all Astartes in every single way. A single Astartes could never stand against one and hope to win. Ever. Not without serious chaos support or serious Emperor support. Also, Driago has weak facial hair and bags under his eyes. Negative points to him for looking like a 70 year old man in TDA.

Edit: To above poster, he hasn't destroyed the entire domain of any chaos god. That is obvious, plainly obvious. If he met a god, he would be crushed utterly and completely.

The most powerful greater daemons don't even bother with realspace.

Yeah, I'm guessing you mean the Chaos gods and their direct champions. (Guards, I suppose)

However, wasn't Ka'Bundha described as the mightiest of Bloodthirsters? OR even one of the mightiest of Khorne's servants? Either way, Driago hasn't nabbed himself a GD mightier than ones the Primarches have broken.

Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Actually, he's the only Primarch that all of the other primarchs acknowledged as their better.

Funny, because Magnus was very confident he was not merely stronger than the other Primarchs, but even more powerful than the Emperor.

While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

Omegus wrote:While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

While it's true that Magnus put his father ahead of him on his ranking system, I still recall Magnus stating that, in his studies of the Warp, he eventually surpassed his father.

But I'm also not going to search through the entire book for that passage, so will drop it regardless.


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BrainDeleted wrote:Edit: To above poster, he hasn't destroyed the entire domain of any chaos god. That is obvious, plainly obvious. If he met a god, he would be crushed utterly and completely.

He burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

Mind telling me what Nurgle's domain is called?

Oh that's right. The Garden of Nurgle.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Apparently all that was left of it was the "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Oh and then there is this!

"That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible."

Apparently he is utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods.




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Manchu wrote:The most powerful greater daemons don't even bother with realspace.

Depending on which source you believe, either An'ggrath or Ka'Bhanda are the strongest of all Bloodthirsters.

Both have entered realspace.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Omegus wrote:While Magnus' psychic abilities gave him an immense advantage over the other Primarchs, he did NOT think himself more powerful than the Emperor. The ranking system of psychic/sorcerous power as Magnus explained to Ahriman placed the Emperor squarely at the top. Magnus was way more powerful and aware of the Warp than the Emperor ever suspected, but he still was no match for his father.

While it's true that Magnus put his father ahead of him on his ranking system, I still recall Magnus stating that, in his studies of the Warp, he eventually surpassed his father.

But I'm also not going to search through the entire book for that passage, so will drop it regardless.

Oh, his esoteric knowledge of Warp sorcery and the like certainly eclipsed his father's, he was just no match in terms of sheer psychic power. I'm sure he'd put up a decent fight, though. If you accept the BL supposition that the Wolves and Thousand Sons were the biggest threat to Horus' plans, it was implied at one point that in some ways Magnus was a far bigger psychic threat than his father precisely because of his wealth of knowledge.

=I= White-Wolf wrote:

Jackster wrote:Sanguinius eats greater daemons for breakfast.

This^
Sanguinius snapped the back of a bloodthirster over his knee, and he wasn't even considered the most physically powerful of the primarchs for crying out loud! The average greater daemon, no chance in hell (or warp ) GD like skrarband? Would be a challenge indeed...

After that same Bloodthirster had already defeated him once previously. Sanguinius and Ka'Banda were largely evenly matched, which is a huge accomplishment as Bloodthirsters are the most powerful Greater Daemons in 1 on 1 combat.

Greater Daemons vs Daemon Princes is one of the more inconsistent pieces of fluff, there's a lot of misunderstandings on it. Codex: Chaos Daemons makes it clear that Daemon Princes are usually the lieutenants to Greater Daemons, whoa re the highest level of Daemons before the Gods themselves. However on many other occasions we see the opposite, such as a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch summoning 3 Lords of Change to fight the Grey Knights in the GK Omnibus or Angron having a retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters.

In the old Dark Millennium story, I'm pretty sure it was a full score of them.

Omegus wrote:Oh, his esoteric knowledge of Warp sorcery and the like certainly eclipsed his father's, he was just no match in terms of sheer psychic power. I'm sure he'd put up a decent fight, though. If you accept the BL supposition that the Wolves and Thousand Sons were the biggest threat to Horus' plans, it was implied at one point that in some ways Magnus was a far bigger psychic threat than his father precisely because of his wealth of knowledge.

You may be right, which would make sense, now that I think about it. Ahriman could plainly see that the Emperor's sheer psychic aura was larger than Magnus', I can't see how Magnus couldn't.

Hm, when was it suggested Magnus was in some ways a bigger threat than the Emperor psychically (I assume due to Magnus' knowledge of sorcery, specifically).


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Harriticus wrote:After that same Bloodthirster had already defeated him once previously. Sanguinius and Ka'Banda were largely evenly matched, which is a huge accomplishment as Bloodthirsters are the most powerful Greater Daemons in 1 on 1 combat.

But Ka'Bhanda is also the strongest Bloodthirster.

And if you read the first fight, blade to blade, Sanguinius was overall superior to Ka'Bhanda, but Ka'Bhanda's whip allowed him to press an advantage.

Greater Daemons vs Daemon Princes is one of the more inconsistent pieces of fluff, there's a lot of misunderstandings on it. Codex: Chaos Daemons makes it clear that Daemon Princes are usually the lieutenants to Greater Daemons, whoa re the highest level of Daemons before the Gods themselves. However on many other occasions we see the opposite, such as a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch summoning 3 Lords of Change to fight the Grey Knights in the GK Omnibus or Angron having a retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters.

Overall a Greater Daemon is higher in status and power, yeah. I just see it as there being exceptions.

Void__Dragon wrote:
He burned down the Garden of Nurgle.

Mind telling me what Nurgle's domain is called?

Oh that's right. The Garden of Nurgle.

"He
unleashed sanctified flame again amongst the writhing
jungles of Nurgle's domain, and for a long time the gusting
Warp-winds carried only a charcoal stench and the tortured
screaming of daemonic vegetation."

Apparently all that was left of it was the "charcoal stench and the tortured screaming of daemonic vegetation."

You really think that means the ENTIRETY of Nurgle's domain? No, it doesn't. He only burned down Nurgle's garden, surely it angered Grandpa that the pretty garden he tended when not unleashing horrible plagues upon man was burnt by some mean Grey Knight, but he didn't LOSE HIS ENTIRE DOMAIN. Just a piece of it. He's described as having a throne room where he's tended to by an untold number of his servants and has got Isha in a cage and a big ol' cauldron where he cooks up his nastiest of nastiness. Surely you're not gonna say that this was in his garden and got burnt up too? It's just his darn garden.

BrainDeleted wrote:You really think that means the ENTIRETY of Nurgle's domain? No, it doesn't. He only burned down Nurgle's garden, surely it angered Grandpa that the pretty garden he tended when not unleashing horrible plagues upon man was burnt by some mean Grey Knight, but he didn't LOSE HIS ENTIRE DOMAIN. Just a piece of it. He's described as having a throne room where he's tended to by an untold number of his servants and has got Isha in a cage and a big ol' cauldron where he cooks up his nastiest of nastiness. Surely you're not gonna say that this was in his garden and got burnt up too? It's just his darn garden.

Considering that it then notes basically nothing was left in Nurgle's domain, yes.

He lives in a big mansion in the middle of the Garden with his cauldron, yes. So maybe the mansion didn't burn down.

Okay, Draigo burned down most of Nurgle's domain.

Actually it says the JUNGLES of Nurgle's Domain. Besides, destroying a God's entire domain would likely entail destroying the God himself since he's bound to his domain. I guess Grandpa could have been out collecting his social security check...But still. Personally, I don't think his domain is only the JUNGLES of his domain but yeah we'll agree to disagree on that one.

I'd say they're roughly about a tie with the toning down of the Primarchs in more recent fluff compared to the old almost godlike primarchs.

Nurgle's domain is infinite in scope. The Warp doesn't have concepts of spacial limits. Draigo burnt down a jungle of Nurgle. Still pretty absurd he could live through that though.

And Void_Dragon if Imperial Armour is considered the ultimate source then An'ggrath the Unbound is the strongest Bloodthirster

BrainDeleted wrote:Actually it says the JUNGLES of Nurgle's Domain. Besides, destroying a God's entire domain would likely entail destroying the God himself since he's bound to his domain. I guess Grandpa could have been out collecting his social security check...But still. Personally, I don't think his domain is only the JUNGLES of his domain but yeah we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Well, all that is really described of Nurgle's domain is a massive jungle, the Garden, which waxes and wanes as Nurgle's power does (And occasionally encroaches on the domains of other gods), with a big mansion in the middle.

But that's still beside the point, the fact that the text asserts that Draigo is beyond the will of the Chaos Gods is the most idiotic part of the fluff.