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TheAngrySquig wrote:I:Thank you Mr.Vulkan for coming to your performance review.
V:No problem
I:Is it fair to say your in charge around here?
V:Absolutely, I'm the Primarch.
I:Well take us through a day in the life of "The Primarch"
V:Well the first thing is DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS!
I:LIKE A BOSS
V:FLIP A TANK!
I:LIKE A BOSS

Should I feel ashamed that I want a full version of that... for each primarch? NOW?!

Soladrin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I:Thank you Mr.Vulkan for coming to your performance review.
V:No problem
I:Is it fair to say your in charge around here?
V:Absolutely, I'm the Primarch.
I:Well take us through a day in the life of "The Primarch"
V:Well the first thing is DUAL WIELD THUNDER HAMMERS!
I:LIKE A BOSS
V:FLIP A TANK!
I:LIKE A BOSS

Should I feel ashamed that I want a full version of that... for each primarch? NOW?!

No, you should feel LIKE A BOSS

BrainDeleted wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:We need context. We have no idea how the two missing Primarchs died, if they did die, and we need to know about the specifics concerning them as well. For all we know both of these Primarchs were like pre-Chaos Lorgar. Which is to say a massive pussy.

Yeah...Too bad we'll probably never get it. But I still think the mere suggestion buff Russ a few points. He's the crazy space viking the Emp basically uses as follows: Point in a direction, unleash, hope collateral damage isn't too bad...Or that he doesn't get completely side tracked and end up on a fool's errand.

I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not sure I'd immediately say Horus had particularly low willpower. Real loyalty? Maybe, but honestly I don't think the Emperor really earned true loyalty. Sure he created them, but he didn't seem to trust them either.

Yeah, I'd say he's not as capable a smithy as Manus, Fulgrim, or Vulkan. Nor does he have the incredible technical knowledge of Perturabo, whose knowledge rivaled any Tech Priest apparently.

To an extent I agree. Oh sure, Corax tells us that Angron and Horus are the gak in martial combat, but really, show don't tell. Angron and Horus have only hype in that regard, as far as I can tell. He's probably strong, but we have yet to see actual evidence for it.

But you are right, Horus wasn't better than every Primarch in everything, just overall the most capable, in making war at least.

Can't wait for the World Eaters' novel......

And I don't know, it's tough to see how they didn't owe the Emp loyalty. He gave them the most awesome toys in the Galaxy to play with as well as the coolest jobs ever. It's too easy to assume the worst about His mysterious ways. Personally, I think a lot of his secrecy was out of genuine concern for his little boys.

I don't see why they would feel they owed the Emperor the loyalty he expected of them.
Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

BrainDeleted wrote:And I don't know, it's tough to see how they didn't owe the Emp loyalty. He gave them the most awesome toys in the Galaxy to play with as well as the coolest jobs ever. It's too easy to assume the worst about His mysterious ways. Personally, I think a lot of his secrecy was out of genuine concern for his little boys.

Except you're really assuming that running an army and taking over the galaxy (and stacking up enough corpses to make Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler all look like a bunch of slackers) is really what the various Primarchs all wanted. It sure as heck isin't what Lorgar wanted to do when he grew up, and I'm rather iffy that all the other Primarchs were totally into the idea either. None of the Primarchs were originally created to just be mindless killing machines, yet when the Emperor showed up on their planets, it was like that joke t-shirt "Join the army: Travel to exotic distant lands; meet exciting, unusual people and kill them."

Even in the grimdark 40k setting, people get into trouble all the time because they start thinking, and end up going heretic because they decide that their might be a better way. In the far less grimdark 30k setting, with hyperintelligent beings like the Primarchs, I think the Emperor is lucky that he didn't end up with all twenty of them running off in different directions because they did some thinking and decided that xeno and genocide of anything non-Imperium wasn't the best plan ever. Remember how Horus was all interested in the setup that the Interex had going, especially since they seemed to have things all squared away regarding chaos and xenos.

Hey, its the Chaos Gods fault they all grew up without Daddy. They are like the ultimate in Social Services, confiscate your kids, scatter them all over the place and then forget about them and you have to pick up the pieces. The Emperor didn't want sons, he wanted super Generals. He used his own DNA to make them, they are not really sons so much as his DNA with facets removed.

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Durza wrote:I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Yeah, that's why I want it from the Iron Hands' perspective. I agree with some of your criticisms of Fulgrim but I enjoyed the book overall.

Durza wrote:I don't see why they would feel they owed the Emperor the loyalty he expected of them.
Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

You forgot the most important one: Horus.

Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

iproxtaco wrote:

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

You sniped exactly what I was going to say.

Most of the book is told from the perspective of people who are not Fulgrim, like Julius, Solomon Demeter, Saul Tarvitz, the remembrancers, and I think that's it. The story is really only told from Fulgrim's point of view sparingly, like when he's talking to a gak painting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

And you forgot: "Hey, he didn't trust me enough to tell him what he was doing when he left the Great Crusade, poured a massive amount of responsibility onto my shoulders, causing most of my brothers to resent me."

Horus was not justified in betraying the Emperor, but I certainly can see why he allowed the moment of weakness for Chaos to ensnare him.

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

This is true, at least, based on Index Astartes it is.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Mortarion I can't blame the Emperor on. Mortarions' reason for treachery seems simple: He's completely sinister.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

It was the Emperor's fault. Very much. Angron only killed the Custodian after the Emperor teleported him away so his homies would get slaughtered, and his anger was very much justified. Angron was prone to rages, but his fury and ferocity masked an immense intelligence, and an admittedly fairly warped code of ethics. Want to know how the Emperor could of handled that situation? Rather than trying to get Angron to abandon those he considered family, he could of entered battle alongside his son. That would of earned Angron's eternal respect. It's not like it would be difficult for the Emperor to crush the enemy army either.

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

The underlying character trait of the Emperor's that caused the Horus Heresy is his habit of ordering the men directly under him around without giving them an inkling of what his plans were. That's not how you run an Empire.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Yeah true, Fulgrim was one of the Emperor's favorites honestly. Fulgrim fell because he was completely ignorant about the nature of Chaos. That however is the Emperor's fault, the Emperor's idea to protect humanity against Chaos by making everyone ignorant of it was completely idiotic. Compare this to the Interex, who know what Chaos is, and fight it, successfully and without issue.

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

To be fair, and Lorgar even makes this point, he didn't seem to have much of a problem with it for decades, only for the Emperor to chastise Lorgar in the most heavy-handed way. The Emperor should of chastised Lorgar, yes, but his methods were too extreme.

BrainDeleted wrote:

You forgot the most important one: Horus.

Horus: 'Hey, he basically raised me himself, trusted me above all others, gave me supreme command, and he was my best friend & father.'

" And yet, he couldn't even tell why he left. After all this time he just got up and left one day, leaving the entire Crusade to me. Now he's handing over control to these mortals that had no hand in the empire's creation without even aknowledging it was me and my brothers who forged it with our blood. Dick."

For Perturabo, it's implied Horus saw to it that he was broken down and frustrated, not the Emp.

Horus was only in command for a few years really, ten at the most. Perturabo was frustrated long before that, considering the pattern of siege warfare and garrisoning had been happening through the entire Crusade.

Mortarion's own pride caused that ugliness. Sure, the Emp didn't stop him...But how could he have? Mortarion proclaimed he didn't need anyone's help and stormed off to do something he couldn't possibly achieve. Pigheaded.

Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

Angron...Yeah, that was really a goof. But to be fair, whose fault was it really? Angron wasn't a very reasonable fellow being that he was basically partially lobotomized. I'm sure the Emp would have helped him if Angron didn't answer him by killing a custode and spitting defiance. The real blame for their failure of a relationship rests on the uncontrollable anger the people of his home world afflicted him with...

Oh yes, it was the Emperor's fault. Angron had just spent his only time of freedom he had ever known fighting with a band of warriors that he grew to respect and care for as brothers and fellow soldiers fighting against tyranny. It's just Spartacus, in every way. They wouldn't give up Spartacus himself, so all died as brothers. The Emperor, instead of actually helping him, decided to almost teach Angron a lesson, that he had no one but himself. Angron was already a lobotomized gladiator slave at this point. All that he cared for was being destroyed before his eyes by some random stranger that then expected Angron just to obey. Dick.

Magnus is one of the more tragic ones. Can't really blame it on the Emp though. He tried to get Magnus off the sorcery and Magnus tried to help him...Just in the most ill-conceived and vain possible fashion.

It wasn't inherently the Emperor's fault, although he could have explained why the Warp was dangerous, even for Magnus. Wrong move, but his eventual betrayal was due to Horus's meddling and Magnus's massive ego. He was a pawn of Tzeentch from the beginning, so we can't really blame Magnus either, he was loyal to the very end after all.

Your Fulgrim analysis isn't really fair at all. He gave Fulgrim a pretty high honor with the whole naming thing. Basically, he patted him on the shoulder and said, "I'm proud of you son for taking this unfortunate event that completely wasn't my fault in stride."

Fulgrim was vain, loyal, but vain. Like Magnus, he was a pawn of a higher power. The Daemon within the Laer sword persuaded him of many things he would not have believed when clear of thought.

Lorgar was an idiot for completely ignoring everything the Emperor said about religion and expecting him to like it.

The Emperor is wholly and completely to blame for this. Lorgar thought he was god, the Emperor didn't disagree or tell Lorgar he was wrong, for at around 100 years of Crusading. He even sat through huge processions and ceremonies dedicated to His godhood. If he had told him on the spot then, there likely wouldn't have been much of a problem. Like with Angron, the Emperor made the completely wrong move. Burning down your greatest achievement and then making you kneel in front of a brother whilst you're told everything you had accomplished was worth nothing, is humiliating, Lorgar was right to feel as he did.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Just my idle speculation. If you manage to find a source for it, I'll be surprised.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Sorry, I need to read it again. I thought a lot more was from his point of view than was really necessary.

Russ.

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Durza wrote:I think that Russ only killed one legion at most. It seems likely that the second primarch was actively worshipping Chaos by the time the Emperor found him, so he just nuked the entire planet and sent the legion to the Ultramarines (/speculation).

What's the source for that? I thought it was implied that they both got the wolves. Is that implied in that dialogue between Lorgar and Magnus?? I'll reread it!

Just my idle speculation. If you manage to find a source for it, I'll be surprised.

iproxtaco wrote:

Durza wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yeah, Fulgrim and Manus were alike in some ways, yet couldn't be more different. Both were perfectionists, but went about it in different ways. Fulgrim is the most feminine Primarch, while Manus is one of the most manly, they're foils, basically.

Another reason why their friendship kind of cheeps me out a bit. I really want a book to foil Fulgrim from the perspective of the Iron Hands. I'd imagine Ferrus would paint their fights in a much different fashion. Also it would be full of awesome Ferrus quotes because I feel like anything he says would be awesomely masculine and bamf.

I don't think they should have written the book from Fulgrim's perspective at all. It would have worked better detailing Lucius or Saul, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar and the fight with Manus. That way he would have stayed a deity-like figure like he should have been. And imagine an entire book from Ferrus' view. It'd get pretty boring.

Unless you're reading a different book from the rest of us, you really did describe Fulgrim. It was from Saul Tarvitz's and the Rembrancers's POV, with occasional forays into Fulgrim's POV for things like the temple, the Eldar, and the fight with Manus. We only got to hear it from Fulgrim's perspective for the actual important parts.

Sorry, I need to read it again. I thought a lot more was from his point of view than was really necessary.

The only parts that were from Fulgrim's POV was in the Laer temple, the meetings with Ferrus, meeting with Eldrad, the fight with the Avatar, the meeting with Horus, and the final battle with Ferrus. There were one or two other bits that served the purpose of showing how the Daemon was influencing him. The rest, the majority of the book, was from the POV's of the Captains and the Remembracer. Even the latter features more than Fulgrim does. I agree that there shouldn't ever be a book dedicated solely to the POV of a Primarch, but Fulgrim was perfect in how it was handled.

I need to review some sources. For some reason, I thought Angron attacked the Emp's crew on their first meeting, having found the idea of abandoning his men completely outrageous. Then he attack War Hounds wantonly once he was abducted.

This kind of makes all the difference for me...The specific sequence of events. Obviously, the Emp didn't handle it perfectly. He's only human, after all...Or was he?

iproxtaco wrote:Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

This does not follow. The 'strong' on Barbarus were the necromantic overlords whom Mortarion originally served. But Mortarion chose to be a Champion of the 'weak', normal humans below instead, didn't he? He chose to fight against the oppressors.


As for Lorgar, he should have known better. No excuses. Why didn't the Emperor punish him sooner? It's a pretty big galaxy. The only time he sat through the pomp and ceremony of Lorgar was when he was first reunited with him as far as I know, the sources I've seen say he didn't approve but tolerated it. Yeah, he was pretty heavy handed but Lorgar's deviation from the path the Emperor put before him was also pretty massive.

Mortarion felt that the strong should champion the weak, not that the weak should command the strong. There's a difference. On his planet, the humans saw him as a hero. The ruling humans had no such opinion.

The Emperor destroyed Lorgar's greatest creation. No warning, no 'Stop worshipping me or else.' Just blew up the city and forced the entire legion to kneel before him in the ashes before sending them out to fight for him again. That's more than heavy handed, it's sadistic.

There is not much love for the Khan is there? He did a pretty good job on Terra retaking the Lion's Gate Space Port and cutting the traitors supply of reinforcements.

He hasn't really had much written about him really, it would be nice if he had HH title to himself.

Seriously. The Khan is a champ. The shreds and scraps of fluff we have about him are pretty awesome. Surfing a rhino through the traitors to retake the Lion's Gate? Riding straight into the webway after the DE for his people? Unfortunately Vulkan, Perturabo, and Khan seem to get the least coverage far and away...Of course, that's excluding the two who got a Damnatio Memoriae slapped on them.

I really want Perturabo to get some love.

He is one of the most interesting Primarchs in concept, IMHO.

BrainDeleted wrote:I need to review some sources. For some reason, I thought Angron attacked the Emp's crew on their first meeting, having found the idea of abandoning his men completely outrageous. Then he attack War Hounds wantonly once he was abducted.

This kind of makes all the difference for me...The specific sequence of events. Obviously, the Emp didn't handle it perfectly. He's only human, after all...Or was he?

iproxtaco wrote:Mortarion felt bitter for the same reason Horus did. His homeworld was built on the principle that the strong would rule the weak. The Emperor was the rule of the Imperium to weak mortals when the Legions were the ones to build it. The strong were being ruled by the weak.

This does not follow. The 'strong' on Barbarus were the necromantic overlords whom Mortarion originally served. But Mortarion chose to be a Champion of the 'weak', normal humans below instead, didn't he? He chose to fight against the oppressors.

It follows. He was sinister, always had been since his time under the tutelage one of the Overlords. What did he do after the Heresy? He found a planet and recreated Barbarus, where the strong rule the weak. He helped the people of his homeworld because he was one of the weak at that point. He believed people should rule themselves, but that the weak should not be supported by the strong. Unfaltering endurance was his strength. When he found himself among the farmers of the valleys, he saw a civilization of weak people, and decided to make them strong.

As for Lorgar, he should have known better. No excuses. Why didn't the Emperor punish him sooner? It's a pretty big galaxy. The only time he sat through the pomp and ceremony of Lorgar was when he was first reunited with him as far as I know, the sources I've seen say he didn't approve but tolerated it. Yeah, he was pretty heavy handed but Lorgar's deviation from the path the Emperor put before him was also pretty massive.

Why should he have known better? All his life he was taught the concept of faith, it's not something easily let go of, especially when your faith is not denied. Plagued by visions of a God's arrival on Colchis, he purged the entire planet of those who practiced the old faith in the Chaos Gods (or so he thought). The Emperor arrived, and did not deny he was this God, or that Lorgar was wrong. From then Lorgar thought he was right, that the Emperor was a God.

So ya think Lorgar was never exposed to the concept of the Imperial Truth...?

BrainDeleted wrote:So ya think Lorgar was never exposed to the concept of the Imperial Truth...?

Maybe, but not that much. Everyone around him believed the same thing, or didn't tell him different. The Emperor tried to impose the Imperial Truth, but never denied his divinity to Lorgar, that's the point.

Lemon Russ is just a tank...

ParatrooperSimon wrote:Lemon Russ is just a tank...

I larfed.

Durza wrote: Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

Fulgrim: was more like a breaking of bad news than a chasteisment. It was like 'Turns out most of your kids died due to a gene seed goof, your still totaly cool though'
Mortarion: He only stepped in after Morty had almost died, not really humiliating
Lorgar: The destruction of Monarchia was perfectly warranted. The city WORSHIPPED the Emperor, worship like that is dangerous and needs to be taken care of
Perturabo: was the one he treated more like a general than a son, Perturabo is right to be po'ed
Magnus: the Emperor was afraid that he would get to immersed in it and fall to chaos if he was made aware of the situation. I agree with BrainDeleted, it was an unfortunate turn of events

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Durza wrote: Fulgrim: 'Hey, I've made you this awesome army, but it turns out you have an inherent flaw, so most of them died. Good luck with that.'
Angron: 'Help your friends and army win against your evil oppressors? Nah, let's watch them get slaughtered. It'll be a great father son activity.'
Mortarion: 'I'll help you. By humiliating you by letting you get poisoned and then defeating your adopted father myself.'
Lorgar: 'I'll burn down your sacred city and tear down your beliefs. Now go and fight for me again.'
Pertuabo: 'Split up your legion, and send them to guard planets and break sieges. You can have an honourable mention on the back of the victory.'
Magnus: 'Explain what I'm doing? No.'

Fulgrim: was more like a breaking of bad news than a chasteisment. It was like 'Turns out most of your kids died due to a gene seed goof, your still totaly cool though'
Mortarion: He only stepped in after Morty had almost died, not really humiliating
Lorgar: The destruction of Monarchia was perfectly warranted. The city WORSHIPPED the Emperor, worship like that is dangerous and needs to be taken care of
Perturabo: was the one he treated more like a general than a son, Perturabo is right to be po'ed
Magnus: the Emperor was afraid that he would get to immersed in it and fall to chaos if he was made aware of the situation. I agree with BrainDeleted, it was an unfortunate turn of events

Fulgrim he indulged, but he also didn't tell him what the problem with his gene seed was, leaving him searching for a way to fix what mightn't even have been broken. If he had thought there was no problem with the legion's gene seed, he would have been far less easily manipulated by the daemon and Fabius Bile.
Mortarion: The Emperor told him he had to beat his adopted father alone, and if he lost he would become his servant. He didn't then waited until he was about to be killed before showing he was better than Mortarion. It was humiliation.
Lorgar: The city worshipped the Emperor, like many others throughout the Imperium. The Emperor could have given Lorgar a warning to stop worshipping him beforehand, but instead he brutally crushed his son's faith in him. Not exactly the best way to ensure loyalty.
Magnus: So instead of warning him about the gods and telling him not to communicate with him on Terra for a while, he told him nothing and tried to arrest him for warning him about treachery.

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

No, it makes him a smarter fighter.

Durza wrote:Fulgrim he indulged, but he also didn't tell him what the problem with his gene seed was, leaving him searching for a way to fix what mightn't even have been broken. If he had thought there was no problem with the legion's gene seed, he would have been far less easily manipulated by the daemon and Fabius Bile.
Mortarion: The Emperor told him he had to beat his adopted father alone, and if he lost he would become his servant. He didn't then waited until he was about to be killed before showing he was better than Mortarion. It was humiliation.
Lorgar: The city worshipped the Emperor, like many others throughout the Imperium. The Emperor could have given Lorgar a warning to stop worshipping him beforehand, but instead he brutally crushed his son's faith in him. Not exactly the best way to ensure loyalty.
Magnus: So instead of warning him about the gods and telling him not to communicate with him on Terra for a while, he told him nothing and tried to arrest him for warning him about treachery.

Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

Mortarion - You forgot the part when Mortarion proclaims, "I don't want or need your help." Mortarion's pride brought that humiliation on, the Empo challanged him to do alone since he said he didn't need help...And they rest is...

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

The Son Of Russ wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

DIDM wrote:Russ > anything/body


/thread

The Lion disagrees. Not /thread.

Yet Iproxtaco, you were saying Magnus was distracted when Russ fought him. True.
Wasn't russ distracted whilst fighting Lion, which allowed Lion to hit the KO blow? Laughing at the folly of a battle you are having with your brother which has been fought for days on straight, and then being KO'ed doesn't really make The Lion greater a fighter does it?

At what point in that post did I say the Lion was better? Oh that's right, I didn't. They fought for a whole day, and neither could win, they were effectively equal. Therefore, Russ is not greater than anything. He started the fight with a sucker punch, and the Lion ended with a sucker punch, which actually knocked Russ out.

They were brothers, they would never have killed eachother anyway. Russ simply, if you will, showed compassion to his brother by stopping their petty squabble. K, fair do's, ill back down :s I don't like arguing on the internet lol

BrainDeleted wrote:Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

Mortarion - You forgot the part when Mortarion proclaims, "I don't want or need your help." Mortarion's pride brought that humiliation on, the Empo challanged him to do alone since he said he didn't need help...And they rest is...

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

Fulgrim's desire for perfection led to his fall, caused by his insecurities over his legion's near-destruction and it not being able to operate alone for a large part of the Crusade.

Mortarion said he didn't need the Emperor's help. The Emperor then denied him his allies' help as well and told him if he failed to defeat his father, he would be the Emperor's servant. To return unsuccessful would have been to fail, so he continued on even though he knew his equipment was failing and he was being poisoned.

I'm not saying that Lorgar hadn't heard of the Imperial Truth. The Emperor never forced him to follow it until they blew up Lorgar's city though, and he didn't stop them worshipping him as a god the first time he appeared before Lorgar.

Magnus sent a message to his father warning him of Horus. He wanted to save his father first and foremost, and if the Emperor had told him what was going on, perhaps he wouldn't have sent the message. Yes, there is a theme. It's that the Emperor is a douche.