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BrainDeleted wrote:

Fulgrim - He didn't know what the problem was, only that it had to do with the Primarch's absence. He would have fixed it himself, if anything, the Emp is efficient. Fulgrim's extreme vanity and pride led to his fall. The Emperor treated the guy like one of his favorites.

What problem with the geneseed? There was no problem. The destruction of the supply was an accident, not a flaw. Other than that, yes, it was Fulgrim's pride and vanity coupled with the manipulation of a Daemon caused his downfall.

Lorgar - It's absolutely, completely, and totally ridiculous to think that Lorgar and his followers never heard of the Imperial Truth. They ignored it and suffered the Emperor's wrath.

They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him. For 100 years they preached that the Emperor was a God, He knew about it, but did not tell Lorgar to stop. It was the Emperor's fault, completely.

Magnus - He didn't have to use sorcery to warn the Emperor. He foolishly thought that, by using sorcery to send the message, he'd somehow vindicate himself and prove that he should be allowed to practice the dark arts. Vanity and pride. Finding a theme?

It wasn't vanity, or pride, it was arrogance. Magnus thought he was the master of the Warp, and payed the price for his ego. Still doesn't excuse the Emperor's mistakes, giving the most inquisitive and psychically powerful Legion pretty much fee reign to dabble in things they couldn't understand. The Emperor never explained a thing to Magnus, and then punished him when he went to far.

Could somebody tell me where I can read about the Lion vs Russ? I've heard about it countless times but don't know where to find it

Guilliman, because he's got a really big ego and the imagery of a Roman Emperor like Ceasar is really cool.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Could somebody tell me where I can read about the Lion vs Russ? I've heard about it countless times but don't know where to find it

Differernt accounts of the event exist in the codices of each respective Legion's codex. Each is obviously slightly biased. The Dark Angels one says Russ was a savage that was going to ruin the Lion's perfect plan, the Space Wolves one says the Lion stole the glory out of spite.

Oh ok thanks, thought it was like the Kurze v Lion story. Which BTW was epic

Magnus, then Sangy followed by Alpharius.

Magnus is the perfect tragic character and too me the Thousand Sons armor was the coolest of all the pre-heresy. Having an army of psykers isn't a bad thing either.

What was the TS pre-heresy armor?

Red with white trim. Symbol was a ring with four flares at the compass points. They used Marks II to V of power armour, suitably decorated with scarab motifs and various jewels. Helmets often had headcrests coloured gold and with alternating bands of purple or other colours. A lot of stereotypical Egyptian stuff.

in the old index astartes IIRC when the emperor meets magnus for the first time he shows him the warp as it reallly is and magnus agree that is dangerous just to calm his father after he leaves he continue as if nothing had happened

thast my memories

Thats pretty awesome. Anyone have any other favorite pre-heresy color schemes, I personally like the World Eaters, the Emporers Chillun, and the Word Bearers

World Eaters and Thousand Sons over here. That nice matte white looks all the more awesome splashed with blood

I like the EC until it gets hit, then it gets ruined

iproxtaco wrote:They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him.

Actually, in False Gods, according to Euphrati Keeler, the Lecititio Divinitatus or whatever it is called, written by Lorgar, preaches that only a true god denies their divinity, and uses the Emperor's denial as evidence he is a god.

Granted, it seems obvious that the Emperor never really made it clear to Lorgar that he really wasn't a god nearly as well as he should of.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Oh ok thanks, thought it was like the Kurze v Lion story. Which BTW was epic

where can you find that?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
where can you find that?

The story is 'Savage Weapons' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden in the Age of Darkness anthology.

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They did, but obviously thought it was baloney considering the man himself never denied he was a God despite all the pomp and ceremony when the Word Bearers were around Him.

Actually, in False Gods, according to Euphrati Keeler, the Lecititio Divinitatus or whatever it is called, written by Lorgar, preaches that only a true god denies their divinity, and uses the Emperor's denial as evidence he is a god.

Granted, it seems obvious that the Emperor never really made it clear to Lorgar that he really wasn't a god nearly as well as he should of.

Yes, but he never made it clear to Lorgar. The Imperial Truth was just there, it's obvious he was never told to follow it.

The Imperial Truth was a pillar of the Emperor's policy for the Imperium...?

Lorgar was foolish to ignore it.

Yes, the Emperor shares blame for what happened, obviously, but Lorgar was not innocent at all. Personally, I think he bears more of the blame.
How do you convince one you are not a god?

'Hey, dude, seriously stop that, I'm not a god. It's not cool man.'
-Chill Emperor

'WOW! He's so humble! Even more worthy of worship! Truly divinity personified!'
-Lorgar

Imperial Facepalm.

Someone as zealous as Lorgar? I'm pretty sure some extreme measures would have to be taken to convince him otherwise...and they were taken.

Actually, it was more like:
'I'm not a god *wink* my halo and golden aura are just coincidence.'-The Emperor.

'Ok, *wink* I get you'-Lorgar.

Hah sorry if it's unclear, I meant that as a hypothetical conversation if the Emp tried to be all nice to Lorgar.

BrainDeleted wrote:The Imperial Truth was a pillar of the Emperor's policy for the Imperium...?

Lorgar was foolish to ignore it.

Yes, the Emperor shares blame for what happened, obviously, but Lorgar was not innocent at all. Personally, I think he bears more of the blame.
How do you convince one you are not a good?

By taking Lorgar aside and telling him he isn't one. The Emperor is completely to blame for Lorgar's state of mind.

'Hey, dude, seriously stop that, I'm not a god. It's not cool man.'
-Chill Emperor

'WOW! He's so humble! Even more worthy of worship! Truly divinity personified!'
-Lorgar

Imperial Facepalm.

Shame that conversation or anything like it never happened.

Someone as zealous as Lorgar? I'm pretty sure some extreme measures would have to be taken to convince him otherwise...and they were taken.

And look how that turned out? The Emperor is a corpse suffering for a race of beings that don't remember the time when he walked among them. There were so many things he could have handled better I dare not list them. Even if you excuse everything else, this is his one monumental mistake.

I think what is being missed is that Lorgar was already being manipulated by Chaos (his advisors).

Lorgar needed someone/something to worship. It was in his makeup/metal state/psychie whatever you want to call it. When the Emperor said it wasn't him, Lorgar simply started looking elsewhere.


The Primarchs may have all been brothers, but they are the very definition of a dysfunctional family.

I put more of the blame on Lorgar. I think the Emperor's true mistake was in not realizing how much Lorgar craved something to worship.

Never explicitly telling Lorgar that he was not a god does not let Lorgar off the hook considering that the Emperor DID explicitly tell Lorgar not to worship him as a god. That mandate included forbidding Lorgar to preach to humanity that the Emperor was a god, so I do not see where the gray area is for Lorgar.

Regardless, your argument assumes that Lorgar would not still have craved other gods to worship had the Emperor actually flat out told him that he was not one. Personally, I think it would have ended the same way.

I think that the emperor could have handled alot of things better, such as not sending a force of savage executioners to give the most scholarly legion a small request or not leaving the crusade to muck about with ancient science back on earth, but he still did the best he could.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the emperor could have handled alot of things better, such as not sending a force of savage executioners to give the most scholarly legion a small request or not leaving the crusade to muck about with ancient science back on earth, but he still did the best he could.

Only if he had about as much understanding of people as the Lion. He made these beings to represent him, but told them nothing of the real dangers they would face. Unless this was the cost of his possible deal with Chaos, a lot of how he treated his sons made no sense for someone who supposedly guided humanity for much of their history.

Durza wrote:Only if he had about as much understanding of people as the Lion.

This is exactly what I think the Emperor's deal is. He is so far-removed from others that he could not read them at all.

As for how he could of guided humanity with his total lack of real charisma, he compensated for this with massive psychic abilities enabling him to easily influence others, and outright read their minds. Primarchs however are not as susceptible to this.

I think he was to far past humanity at that point, and was becoming a god already. He just couldn't connect with the Primarchs emotionally because he had forgotten emotions.

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think he was to far past humanity at that point, and was becoming a god already.

Talk like that gets your city blown up son! You better cut it out!

It's ok, we have a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSUALT TRANSPORT, we can hide

For Allfather, for Russ, for Fenris!

I also always kinda liked Perturabo, he was pretty cool